• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Arena Fee's

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by Emily&Jake View Post
    If you're already boarding there, you shouldn't have to be paying an arena fee during your lesson - that would be something the outside/resident trainer would be paying for.

    Did your lessons go up in price in order to cover the new implemented fee for the trainers? That is the only way I'm seeing how this would affect you personally.
    I'm actually unsure of who's being charged this fee (student or trainer).
    OP said fee for outside trainers, but also said that the group lesson students for another outside trainer don't seem to pay this fee - is it possible the trainer is paying it directly? If so, that would make sense financially for a group (provided arena fee stays the same), but for OP's trainer to pay the fee having only one lesson student is quite different, so the fee might be getting punted back to the OP.
    Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

    Comment


    • #42
      Actually it is somewhere in-between as op is not leasing the entire facility for her own use.

      Comment


      • #43
        Typically a trainer coming in to teach at a facility is expected to pay a fee to the owner of the facility. I understand this, especially at strictly boarding barns without a training program. The problem is that the trainer usually passes the fee on to the student.
        Thus if the trainer's rate to come to you to teach is $50 and the BO institutes a $15 ring fee, the lesson suddenly becomes $65. I think that travelling trainers who are carrying no overhead but who have the opportunity to earn money using others' facilities should probably absorb that fee as a cost of doing business.
        F O.B
        Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
        Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

        Comment


        • #44
          It does not seem so bad when you compare the alternative: barn allows no outside trainers.
          Then you have to spend time and funds trailering to somewhere to take the lesson, paying their ring fee, lesson fee, plus cost of maintenance and operation of trailer and tow vehicle - way more then $10/use even if going next door.

          Been there, did the math

          It was fair, but very inconvenient.
          Horses should be trained in such a way that they not only love their riders, but look forward to the time they are with them.
          ~ Xenophon, 350 B.C.

          Comment


          • #45
            Arena fee's? Not.

            Arena fees. Yes.

            I won't charge the OP any fee this time.
            "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

            Comment


            • #46
              If anyone charges "vet fees" or "farrier fees", could you please advise what these fees are?

              If you charge an "arena fee" because the trainer is using your facility, but you don't charge a vet or farrier fee, could you please explain why not? What about a saddle fitter? Chiropractor?

              I would view all three professionals as independent contractors hired by the horse owner to provide a service, and I'm not sure how/why they would be differentiated.

              It's like if I rented an apartment, and hired a babysitter, and the landlord charged a fee because the babysitter was making money on my premises "for free". Or if I hired a housekeeper. Should the landlord get a cut of that?

              Makes absolutely 0 sense to me. Total money grab; there is no way I would pay that.
              Jigga:
              Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Mike Matson View Post
                Arena fee's? Not.

                Arena fees. Yes.

                I won't charge the OP any fee this time.
                Oh, Mike, you read my mind. I was waiting for the Grammar Police to arrive.
                Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not. Remember that what you have now was once among the many things that you only hoped for.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by saultgirl View Post
                  If anyone charges "vet fees" or "farrier fees", could you please advise what these fees are?

                  If you charge an "arena fee" because the trainer is using your facility, but you don't charge a vet or farrier fee, could you please explain why not? What about a saddle fitter? Chiropractor?

                  I would view all three professionals as independent contractors hired by the horse owner to provide a service, and I'm not sure how/why they would be differentiated.

                  It's like if I rented an apartment, and hired a babysitter, and the landlord charged a fee because the babysitter was making money on my premises "for free". Or if I hired a housekeeper. Should the landlord get a cut of that?

                  Makes absolutely 0 sense to me. Total money grab; there is no way I would pay that.
                  It's an interesting point. I think the difference is this: a vet/chiropractor/farrier/saddle fitter don't tie up, or otherwise use, the focal point for most barns, which is the arena. Trainers also have basically zero overhead. No tools, no merchandise, no shoes, no office space, no medications, many don't have any licensing/memberships. Many carry liability insurance, but that's pennies compared to what the other aforementioned professionals pay.

                  So a BO sees trainers coming in, who pay no overhead, have very few expenses, but who limit the amount of use other boarders have of their arena and essentially use their space to make money. BO's want a piece of that, and in many ways I think that's perfectly reasonable.
                  Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not. Remember that what you have now was once among the many things that you only hoped for.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by saultgirl View Post
                    This is nothing like the situation.

                    It would be more like,if you rented a building to run your business and you hire an accountant or lawyer to come in and meet with you, and your landlord decides to charge an "office fee" to the accountant/lawyer for using the property.
                    Actually no. The boarder is NOT running a business (in comparison to renting office space that is rented specifically to run a business). However, the BO is running a business. The boarder is just renting a stall space and use of communal areas. She is NOT allowed to run a business out of the BO property. For example, a better analogy would be a person renting an apartment and having access to facility gym, pool, laundry room, etc. The apartment renter would not be allowed to run swimming lessons in the community pool. I am sure that if she wanted someone to come give her swimming lessons in the community apartment pool she would need prior approval (mostly for insurance reasons) before being allowed to do so. And the owner of the pool certainly would have the right to ask the "visiting instructor" to pay a fee.

                    The better way to do this would be to charge to instructor versus the boarder. The instructor could decide to pass that fee on to the student, but may also elect to absorb the price in her fee.
                    Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
                    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
                    http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Abbie.S View Post
                      It's an interesting point. I think the difference is this: a vet/chiropractor/farrier/saddle fitter don't tie up, or otherwise use, the focal point for most barns, which is the arena. Trainers also have basically zero overhead. No tools, no merchandise, no shoes, no office space, no medications, many don't have any licensing/memberships. Many carry liability insurance, but that's pennies compared to what the other aforementioned professionals pay.

                      So a BO sees trainers coming in, who pay no overhead, have very few expenses, but who limit the amount of use other boarders have of their arena and essentially use their space to make money. BO's want a piece of that, and in many ways I think that's perfectly reasonable.
                      Actually my trainer does charge a vet fee at times. There is a lameness specialist that comes in to town a few times a year. He likes to see his clients at her place since her facilities are so nice. My trainer charges the vet a fee to use her place (which I am sure he passes on to his clients).
                      Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
                      http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
                      http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        At the barn I board at,there is a trainer's fee if the person taking the lesson is not a boarder. Even then they must work around the paying boarders. By the same token people who wish to use the arena from outside pay a fee and work around boarders. Boarders may bring in their own trainer with no fee as its part of boarding. Lessons must be put on a calendar first. Seems fair to me.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Abbie.S View Post
                          It's an interesting point. I think the difference is this: a vet/chiropractor/farrier/saddle fitter don't tie up, or otherwise use, the focal point for most barns, which is the arena. Trainers also have basically zero overhead. No tools, no merchandise, no shoes, no office space, no medications, many don't have any licensing/memberships. Many carry liability insurance, but that's pennies compared to what the other aforementioned professionals pay.

                          So a BO sees trainers coming in, who pay no overhead, have very few expenses, but who limit the amount of use other boarders have of their arena and essentially use their space to make money. BO's want a piece of that, and in many ways I think that's perfectly reasonable.
                          That's total BS unless other boarders are prevented from using the arena when a lesson is going on.

                          Also, vets/farriers routinely tie up the barn aisles/crossties.
                          Jigga:
                          Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Blume Farm View Post
                            Actually my trainer does charge a vet fee at times. There is a lameness specialist that comes in to town a few times a year. He likes to see his clients at her place since her facilities are so nice. My trainer charges the vet a fee to use her place (which I am sure he passes on to his clients).
                            That is a different scenario, if people are trailering in to be seen by him and he isn't seeing just horses that live at the barn.
                            As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Blume Farm View Post
                              Actually my trainer does charge a vet fee at times. There is a lameness specialist that comes in to town a few times a year. He likes to see his clients at her place since her facilities are so nice. My trainer charges the vet a fee to use her place (which I am sure he passes on to his clients).
                              Are his clients boarders at your trainer's barn?
                              Jigga:
                              Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                You may not think you are paying a vet or farrier fee, but on occasion those services ARE marked up by barns, and often vets and farriers give discounts to the barn owner but charge full price to the customers.

                                However, I think the most relevant issue is that arenas and jumps are very expensive capital investments and costly to maintain and a business that makes those investments should have the right to ask another business/person who uses those facilities for profit to contribute something.

                                As far as the rental comparison, I don't think that is accurate. If I rented my farm out to someone, they would be entitled to use it as they wished (within the confines of the lease agreement, obviously). However, a board agreement is not a rental agreement. Typically board agreements include the board and care of the horse, and the owner's private use of the facility, but not the right to engage in business activities on the property or bring guests to engage in business activities on the property. Overall I think in general many farms are much more open than other businesses about having other professionals on the premises.

                                That $10-$20 extra per lesson might seem steep, but that's what your trainer would have to charge you if s/he had to cover overhead for his/her own facility.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  I am not sure why some people get so upset that a barn does something they do not like. No one is making you board at those facilities that charge fees.

                                  I trucked in to take lessons at a barn for awhile. The facility added a fee for using that facility that I did not know about until I got there. My trainer knew (he taught out of that facility) but had not told me. That ride he covered the fee out of my lesson money. After that I chose to truck into the other barn my trainer worked out of (not near as nice) so I did not have to pay the fee.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    There's no comparison between professionals needed to maintain the health of a horse and what they need for workspace-cross ties or somebody to hold it, maybe a light and a roof (but not always) and use of an arena with fencing, footing, maybe lights for an income generating activity that is completly for the owner/rider. Horses NEED health and hoof care as part if basic care whether they are ridden or not. Horses do NOT NEED lessons or even to be ridden to live a happy life.

                                    The way I read that post about the vet being charged to "bring his clients to the barn for lameness evaluations because of excellent facilities"? Sounds like those are not boarders and just coming to use the facilities and, yeah, he or they need to pay a fee.

                                    Often wonder if many of these threads and replies are posted by those who really do not know what it actually costs to keep a barn operating. Take a calculator or plain old paper and pencil and add it up. Start with monthly rent or mortgage/property tax, add secondary loan payments for improvements (arena fencing/footing etc), insurance, utilities, payroll. That's your base operating cost JUST for the property.

                                    Then you are going to total up monthly feed and bedding for all the horses. That's actual cost per month to operate.

                                    Add actual boarding cost to property operating costs. Then, divide that total by the number of stalls and arrive at actual cost per boarder.

                                    Note I left out quite a few things, stuck to pretty bare bones. Things like feed and water buckets, brooms, pitchforks, wheelbarrows, muck tubs etc. also no allowance for upkeep and repairs not included. And it's just cost, did not include a penny in the BOs pocket.

                                    Try it, it's a shocker.

                                    And, no, I never ran a barn but started keeping privately self care and learned PDQ what things actually cost just for one horse with me doing everything. It was a good lesson.
                                    Last edited by findeight; Nov. 3, 2014, 01:20 PM.
                                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Another way to think of it, is that some barns actively promote their facility as NOT having a lesson program as some people do not like to ride during someone else's lesson (they worry they will be in the way). Having an instructor come in might discourage that type of boarder, and cost the facility business. A fee offsets that risk.

                                      I used to allow an outside instructor come in to teach one boarder on a day I never teach, but then I noticed that the other boarders felt really uncomfortable riding during that time, and the lesson time wasn't that consistent, so I now don't allow outside instructors. Although having that outside instructor didn't really cost me anything, it DID have a negative impact on my other clients who were paying to ride at a barn that had two days a week where there were no lessons.

                                      My analogy would be that you own a cemetery plot, and then decide to use that space to practice your drumming (because you have paid for that spot right?). It doesn't COST the cemetery for you to use the space, but it DOES negatively impact how other people may use the area, and so the cemetery may loose its attractiveness to people who want a quiet place.
                                      Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        A question for those who think a ring fee is outrageous...

                                        What if this outside trainer starts teaching 2 of the boarders? 3 of the boarders? How about 8 of the boarders? How about Saturday from 9 - 5? Now, she's teaching 8 boarders and has 3 of their horses in training?

                                        Where do you suggest drawing the line?

                                        Not to mention, outside trainers who have no "skin in the game" can be a serious pain for the other boarders. Leaving jumps out? No problem - they don't need the ring dragged the next morning. Scheduling lessons at the busiest times of the evening? Don't care - not impacting their business; doesn't matter if the other boarders are satisfied with the facility.

                                        It's really annoying trying to dodge lesson kids who are paying for Susie Naturalhorsewoman to come and teach them when I'm trying to take my own lesson with the barn-employed trainer who *IS* giving a cut to the barn so my board bill is not exorbitant. Yes, Susie or boarder should have to pay a fee.
                                        "I'd rather have a horse. A horse is at least human, for god's sake." - J.D. Salinger

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by starhorse View Post
                                          A question for those who think a ring fee is outrageous...

                                          What if this outside trainer starts teaching 2 of the boarders? 3 of the boarders? How about 8 of the boarders? How about Saturday from 9 - 5? Now, she's teaching 8 boarders and has 3 of their horses in training?

                                          Where do you suggest drawing the line?

                                          Not to mention, outside trainers who have no "skin in the game" can be a serious pain for the other boarders. Leaving jumps out? No problem - they don't need the ring dragged the next morning. Scheduling lessons at the busiest times of the evening? Don't care - not impacting their business; doesn't matter if the other boarders are satisfied with the facility.

                                          It's really annoying trying to dodge lesson kids who are paying for Susie Naturalhorsewoman to come and teach them when I'm trying to take my own lesson with the barn-employed trainer who *IS* giving a cut to the barn so my board bill is not exorbitant. Yes, Susie or boarder should have to pay a fee.
                                          At what point does "outside trainer" become resident trainer? At any place where you have more than one trainer (for example, trainers that cater to different disciplines), you're going to have the annoyance factor you describe, even where the other trainers are the barn's resident trainer for that discipline.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X