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Moms Who Ride with Daughters Who Ride

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  • #21
    When my daughter was 8 we leased a pony for her. When she was 10 I bought her a horse (he was 10 also). Though I bought him for her she shared him freely with me. She was focused on riding lessons and shows and I would often take him on trail rides. When she was 18 and heading to college he was all mine. Looking back it worked out so well because if I had two horses now I wouldn't have time for both.


    • #22
      As a very young woman, many years ago, I was a serious professional rider with my own 25-acre farm, a boarding/training operation, and a fine young stallion, when a major health problem ended it for me. Two years in doctors' offices, hospitals, and a research institute finally convinced me that I could no longer ride as a professional, and the enormous medical bills persuaded me that I couldn't afford to ride as an amateur. So I gave it all up (having some attacks of hysterical grief in the process). Moved to the city, went to college, went to grad school, got married. It was so painful to see horses and not be able to ride that I avoided them altogether.

      So one of the hardest things I ever did was bringing my 11-year-old daughter to a nearby stable for lessons. As a divorced mom I found it a huge sacrifice, and I had to put in a lot of extra hours at a very disheartening job so my child could ride. I felt joy that she was loving this sport, and also a sense of poignance and loss that I couldn't afford to ride myself.

      About two years ago my daughter, then 18, announced that the the trainer had decided to sell her a little OTTB mare she had been schooling. I was horrified and excited at the same time. Sure, I wanted a horse, but this was a big financial strain. And I didn't think this one was ideal.

      I paid for the horse, partly because I wanted a stake in it. I've also paid for shoes, blankets, vet bills, tack, supplements, board, etc. etc. etc. The vet, farrier, and board bills are addressed to both of us and the Coggins is in both our names. My daughter works very hard and pays for many expenses herself. As my daughter is now in college, I have been the one to nurse the mare when she was injured, rehab her after the injury, drive out to the barn twice a day to swap her blankets, medicate her, feed her, groom her, and do all the million other chores a horse requires.

      We have essentially been sharing the horse, because while I love my child to death and beyond, I am not going to slave and sacrifice for a horse I can't ride. Sorry, but watching your child bounce around the showring on a pony is cute at 8, and at that age one gives things up for their happiness; at 20 and 21 they can do much more on their own, and ought to be picking up more of the slack if they want a luxury item like a horse.

      Occasionally she and I have words or disagree about the proper handling and training of the horse, but the disagreements are mild.

      So while the trainer says to people, "Mary and her mom are the owners of Miss Priss," there's sometimes a little power struggle going on as my daughter reminds everyone loudly that this is HER horse and it loves HER. That's okay. As long as I have a chance to ride, to work out a relationship with a horse, and improve my skills, I consider myself incredibly lucky.

      But next year at this time, if God is kind and I can find a job, I am bloody well going to buy myself my own horse.


      • #23
        I am enjoying the kids as they are now. Son rode in Pony Club, competed in all sections at Rally and had a good time. We also Trail Rode and he helped husband with Driving competitions. Daughter is much younger, kind of stepped into his spot when he went into High School Varsity sports.

        Both kids used animals we already owned, aged, trustworthy, EXPERIENCED horses who let the kids grow in skills and win when they could ride well enough. No gift ribbons!

        I had ridden and competed hard before my marriage, was successful in the levels I showed at. Did a wide variety of horse activities, with most weekends at something for a number of years. Lots of fun, many "moments of glory" in the winner's lineup. Finally got burned out with the running, hauling, hours of riding to stay competitive, along with my day job that paid the bills. I kept horses in barns I rented, no boarding, so daily chores in there too. Got back into more riding for fun then. Got married, bought a farm for the horses to stay on and the children came along. Husband got into carriage Driving so kids could be with us enjoying the horses, did picnics, fun drives. He then got into competitive Driving things. Horses kind of escalated then, because he liked driving Multiples. So we needed better animals and more of them.

        All the horses were broke to ride and drive, so we could use any of them for what we needed. Still had my 2 older show horses that were smaller, for the kids as they grew.

        I have found it interesting to haul, participate and ride with my kids at the many activities, showing, camping out, Trail riding, Rally, 4-H showing, Fairs, lessons and training, Driving, as we enjoy the horses. I want the kids to be Horsemen, not little Equitation riders. They both did and do chores daily, prepare their own animals, load the truck, as we go to things. They both are noticing of the animals as they handle them, are able to manage the various individuals we have. Tell us when someone is NQR. These are not "kid horses" but well-trained, kindly animals who take direction well, respond to skilled handling. Most home bred and raised. The kids handled them thru all the growth and training stages along with us.

        I don't feel like showing much anymore, especially when viewing what it takes to win in horse showing. So no loss to me, glad I did all that before. I wouldn't own most of the present winners! I can't stand the slow gaits of bad movers, artificiality of it all, rider's body style of the moment, that it takes to win big. Daughter likes mostly Performance classes, does some speed, which suits me fine. She enjoys her friends at shows, not driven to show more or go harder to collect more ribbons. She has regular lessons, and I help her in between to stay correct. She likes her horses, gets them out for fun, not just work.

        This is a phase in my life that we are enjoying. Plans for summer call for more camping, longer trail rides. Fun riding. She said she doesn't want to do swim camps this year so we have MUCH more time to ride. I am planning on having a lot of fun, will be riding my young horse who needs tuning and exposure to things. He will be daughter's next horse to use, the present one is getting older. I have a second young horse to get going when she moves up. Both are kindly boys, great personalities, and I expect this time will be much fun for both of us. Husband will probably be using the boys as well and getting their Driving education going, maybe competing, so she can help with that too. She is a GOOD groom!

        Have to enjoy her while I can, she will be moving on soon enough. Then the next phase of my life will start, whatever that is. No Do-Over's with kids, enjoy the moments you have, so no regrets later.


        • #24
          Well.. I did not give up my dreams really, they just changed with the coming of the child
          Like I always dreamed of becoming an olympic rider, but then I had a kid and boy am I relieved the pressue is off me, now it on her to become the rider I should have been I am so just joking, I was never talented enough to start that path.
          I rode for fun, and still occasionaly ride for fun. I get a lot of joy out of watching my dd be with her pony, and have the time of her life in gymnastics class (which isn't cheap).

          I would move heaven and earth to make her happy, but at the same time I manage to make sure I don't loose sight of my needs.


          • #25
            Don't give up!

            The other responders have made all the right points -- you can find a balance that works for you, your kid, your family and your wallet, but there's no telling what that exact balance will be.

            I have 2 kids, a daughter who rides and a son who, like my hubby, does not. I had the delight of finding that my daughter, from the tiniest age, was a horsewoman and would join me at the barn. . . as long as I could find a way to finance it to our mutual satisfaction. Full-time work for me was a necessary evil, taking up my potentially equine time, but it also provided funds to justify my equine expenses.

            Thanks to Pony Club (lots of fun, with lessons and camp and rallies at which I could teach and organize), we could do lots of things together. We took turns (ride vs groom/groom vs ride) on the eventing calendar, and did little local shows together. At one point, Laura evented my Gracie mare at Beginner Novice and Novice the same year I ran her Preliminary. That horse, gone now, earned herself a brick on the USPC Memory Walk, she's "Gracie, Queen of the World" if you're ever wandering on the patio in the Ky Horse Park.

            I have always had project horses, and Laura's horses were "projects+time=OK," free leases, or in the case of her last mare, an 18-yr-old Young Riders horse spun from the program for a mild bow. That last horse took her eventing, showing, hunting, and to USPC Festival in show jumping (and even though the mare's now been leased to ANOTHER Pony Clubber since Laura's college focus intensified, that horse is still going strong for a C1 rider at age 24+, bless her golden heart and amazing physique). Also, I keep our critters at a leased facility ($100/month per horse) where we co-op the work and supply our own hay and grain -- hard work, but it helps make things possible.

            My current project horse, which Laura took to PC camp one summer just for grins (he's a PTSD track wacko), is on long layup for a stifle and back issue, so through our Pony Club network I'm hunting a friend's green horse, and while Laura's home for winter break, SHE'S hunting her. I got to start hunting regularly, after a long hiatus (chose PC and occasional eventing to eat all our spare change) and when the crazed horse went lame and the daughter was off at college, voila, it was time to hunt again. I'm having the time of my life, and when Laura's home and takes the green mare out, I rely on the marvelously supportive hunt and PC network for a spare critter to use for the day. The key words, of course, are "marvelously supportive" and "network," without both of which I'd be home horseless, feeling cranky and vilely harassing my hubby for no reason.

            So the general thoughts are "keep your options open," and "use your network," which for us was and continues to be Pony Club and our hunt. We have horse friends and therefore horses available across the country, and our activities have varied with opportunity -- and what a wonderful time we have had!

            Best of luck,

            Nancy W. Ambrosiano
            Barn slave to Special Edition ("Stretch") and Kipper ("Tiny, evil Shetland")
            "No good deed goes unpunished."


            • #26
              i am 52 with a daughter of 25 and son 22 and grandson 3yrs they all ride
              son as and when its his choice

              dreams - its about dosh and wether you can afford xyz and also about time
              horses cost time and money 365days of the year and minium of twice a day visits

              and its about comitment or how dedicated we are on what we do own or have

              when matey says you give up all rights, dont be offended

              look women have mental clocks within themselves. for exsample before you had kids
              and i bet you will all relate to it---- we used to all sleep and sleep well
              once the kids are born- we now sleep with one ear open
              this is what your mate meant

              we have internal duty to have kids and o keep them safe at all times and for those you that think thats its for such a short period in your life yout worng as your kids are with you life long they may leave home but they will know who to go to when they need to

              that one ear open never goes back to being two ears shut

              your dreams - isnt so much as a dream by as a hobby as your space everyones entitled to ther having there own space whereby they do things as a hobby regardless what that is
              some parents like yourself support your childs hobby becuase intruth its your own hobby
              and your child is doing what you like to do, some they continue the hobby some dont
              as they make there way in life and make there own choices
              when they start doing that they are on the way to becoming there own indiviual person
              till then we can only giude them from right or wrong and make chioces for them
              as think about it theya re with you- so part of your dream you already have by leasing a pony for your daughter if one day you want your own or are thinkingyou wish to have your own but cant

              you can- you already know how to budget your finances in having a horse or pony
              so get one you can both ride when she at school you ride it when shes home she rides it- id you want to compete then share it enter shows that have a varity of classes that you can do and she can do

              your dream is a lot closer than you think- the pony or horse you go for must suit both
              just becuase you think your a better rider than your daughter doesnt amke it so
              so go for a school master or a horse or pony 14.2h depending on your weigth and height and daughter weight and height dont go geting a big horse is shes a stick and half pint
              get something thats size is between your weights and height so she can grow into him/her without being over horsed by mind nor body

              there tons for lease there tons a rescues like canter that need homes
              there are horses out there that you dont have to pay much money for but always get a ppe done regardless so your not paying out for a duff neddy thats going to cost you heaps in medical care

              you have a brain -------- you know what you can afford want your dream then go get it

              you already half way there -- then if your daughter decides later in life it her thing or not
              you then also know if she ready to take responsilbity like i said
              choices we all have them but its how wisely you use your choice and the consequences that follow be bad or good

              i am a great beleiver in opportunites and when opportunity knocks i take it with both hands
              good or bad results i dont care as i am not an if only person as in if only i ad done this or that etc

              matey --- your choice of what you do-- and your choice was to least apony for your daughter
              and now you sayng if only i could afford another horse etc

              theres that words if only----- if only always on the never never a nagative
              so change it make it a positive
              everyone has goals and aims and dreams in your case it would take very little to make that dream come true and then you can expand on your horse knowledge and so can your daughter if she choses to go down the same route as yourself----- from there it will amke her a responsible adult
              and perhaps a decent job, as if you can do simple tasks the you can do bigger ones
              and from there the woorld of the horse industry is your oyster as you never ever stop learning as there is so many spins off in the equine industry who knows your duaghter might do equine studies become a vet or she might be a baker banker or work in a shop who knows

              but life dreams starts right here -- your opportnity to change it somewhat upto you now

              jsut to add something at 13 i was working full time at 13 i brought and had my own pony
              at 13 i knew wha i wanted but i loaned one at 13 in the start of my working life to see if i could afford ahorse which i could i then proceeded to make my dream come true
              my point is i chose the same path your going down at 13 and your 52 altho i didnthave a child and lease a pony i did lease one to see if i could afford to keep one

              your dream can be achieved i did that at 13yrs old and i will say i ahve achieved many things in my life as like isaid i am not an if only person iwill tak the bull by the horns and try it
              Last edited by goeslikestink; Dec. 29, 2008, 04:39 AM.


              • #27
                We can't afford for me to ride and for my DD to ride, but I am perfectly happy to watch her grow into a fine horsewoman these next couple of years. It's like a right of passage in a way...and I enjoying giving that to her and supporting her while she learns.

                I diddle around with a ride here and there, and I have Dumplin' the air fern now who makes me more than blissfully happy. There will be plenty of time for me to play around on her horse when she gets one of her own here at the farm.
                I Loff My Quarter Horse & I love Fenway Bartholomule cliques

                Just somebody with a positive outlook on life...go ahead...hate me for that.


                • #28
                  I have had the best of both worlds! I am a trainer and have been the better part of my life, including when my children were born in my late 30's. Daughter was first and I put her on a pony when she was 6 weeks old and she has hardly been off them since! Two year younger brother had the same opportunities but he chose to pursue dinosaurs with the occassional trail ride and a love of all animals. As my daughter grew, I slowly showed my own horse less and less as she started showing more and more. She needed the show clothes and entry fees and I was content to go into trainer mode with her and she blended with my clients. Now that she is an adult with a good paying job, she can afford to keep and show her horse herself and I have started showing more myself.
                  I was lucky that I was able to go to shows in both capacities and keep my fingers in the pie. The biggest benefit was how much the horses have contributed to my daughter's growth. She is a lovely, intellegent, kind, funny, ambitious, compassionate adult that is a delight to know and be around and her horses have really been what made her what she is. (Yes, I am bragging a bit here!) We got thru the boy stage as she prefered boys with pointy ears and 4 legs, thank goodness, so she was able to stay focused on her riding and saved the dating until college. I did most of her training with occassional forays to other pros and we did have the mother/daughter angst that often accompanies this but we got thru it.
                  The sacrifices were well worth it and if you need or want to put your dreams on hold for a few years-and they will FLY by-it is ok but there are ways to do both and what great bonding time you are being offered! Good luck!


                  • #29
                    I have been very lucky. I ride. My kids ride. I came to the marriage with 2 horses and the understanding that they were more than a hobby but part of my life (if my husband didn't want half my salary going to "therapy"). I have two kids, have always worked a full-time job and had horses, mine and theirs. My kids are 12 and 15 now. They still ride, each have their own which I purchased as just started/backed and trained for them. My daughter will be getting my FEI horse this year to move up the levels with. I've had him since he was two. He is now 10. I don't have the money to purchase already made mounts but I do make enough to pay for the upkeep on our herd. My daughter shows as do I. Fortunately she is satisfied with what she/we have. There is no question that I've juggled, adjusted my plans and made decisions based on what can accomodate all of our equine endeavors which means I have less money to spend on clinics and shows for myself; however, I am still reaching for my goals & have not had to abandoned my dreams for those of my daughter's. She will be getting my horse because I've taken him as far as he can go and have three young ones that I'm training. I feel very blessed to have two kids who share in my love of horses. We spend a lot of time trail riding. My kids are also a huge help at the horse shows. Much of our family time revolves around the horses and the kids don't complain. They ask to go and do it. They have grown up with the daily responsibility of helping feed, clean stalls, and manage a small farm/ranch. Personally I wouldn't want it any other way. I see my job/career forcing me to put my hobby on hold (at times) much more so than my children desire being to blame. I truly feel that I'm living my dream - kids, horses, shows, etc.
                    Ranch of Last Resort


                    • #30
                      Wow! A lot of sacrificing going on out there for your kids. As a father of young daughters who are becoming horsey, I guess I can kiss my boat goodbye.


                      • #31
                        Fillysire, the first time you see "it" that moment when those girls are totally and completely 'owned" by horses...it will all be worth it.
                        I Loff My Quarter Horse & I love Fenway Bartholomule cliques

                        Just somebody with a positive outlook on life...go ahead...hate me for that.


                        • #32
                          As far as equine activities go...when my daughter was born I was raising and showing donkeys and mules. It is a very family oriented thing and not too expensive so I continued and she got a donkey. At one point we had grandma, mom, and daughter all showing. Luckily I have a helpful husband. Fast forward a few years and about middle of elementary school she takes lessons with an eventing barn since Mom instructing was not working as well anymore. We got hooked. Even evented the mule for a while. She was in high school before we got the horse and the money to be able to attend recognized events. She pony clubbed through her B which was a fantastic experience. I jumped a little and helped her but finances and time dictated that we were lucky for one of us to event. When she went to college I got an empty nest beagle and began riding again. It wasn't til she was out of college and working that I could lesson and compete and I am working a second job to help finance that. But it is so much fun. I don't regret concentrating on her those years and now we are having a great time. We meet at events and thoroughly enjoy ourselves! At 57 I am only doing Novice but love it. Lifes lessons and difficulties make one appreciate every minute and keep things in perspective. I feel great and plan to do this as long as I can...I have friends in the 60s eventing so I plan on it too. So...in my opinion, concentrate on your daughter but keep riding some at least recreationally so when your time comes around again you are ready. Raising a child is the most wonderful thing in the world but it is nice when you can do your own thing again and even better when you can share it with that child. We both qualified for AEC this year and it was to be a trip of a lifetime, but parental illness and horse accidents caused us to have to cancel 3 days before leaving, maybe next year. We thought a mother and daughter AEC trip was doing to be quite an experience! Exercise, eat right, keep a healthy life style and be ready...your time is coming again!
                          Last edited by flea; Dec. 29, 2008, 11:12 AM. Reason: wording


                          • #33
                            My story is a bit different. My mother grew up riding. She always had horses as a child but quit riding when she got married. When I was about six, she decided to pick it up again. She bought several fancy show horses and I remember how amazing I thought these horses were as a child. I would accompany her to the barn every weekend. I was completely horse crazy but aside from a few sporadic lessons, my mother refused to indulge my passion. The horses were only for her. Now as an adult (with children of my own; twin boys who have no interest in horses whatsoever), my horse habit is very important to me. Perhaps I am making up for lost time.


                            • #34
                              I rode from age 8 until my mid 30's when the horse I was riding was injured/retired and I decided it was time for me to retire also. DD was only a couple of years old then, but she got the 'bug'. I gave her riding lessons on a borrowed pony, but also encouraged her to dance and swim too. Even though she was a good dancer and a great swimmer, she kept coming back to riding so when she was 11 we leased, and eventually bought, a horse so she could ride with a professional trainer. Over the last 2 years I have ridden the horse now and then when DD away at camp or on vacation with my mother, but nothing serious. Now she has outgrown/ridden the horse, but he will stay ours, come home to our farm and become my 'old lady' horse and she will ride some of the other horses in the barn for a while.

                              We have recently had to opportunity to finally ride together and it was a good time for both of us. At an age when most teenage girls are moving away from spending time with their mothers, we spend time talking on the way to the barn, riding together, I haul & groom when she shows and we stay connected. I will never show again, but I will support her advancement as far as she wants to take it, enjoy our rides together and not regret a bit of it.


                              • #35
                                I had horses for years, even with kids. Got out of them after a serious accident. Was NEVER going to have another one...then came along the perfect mare for my horse crazy daughter....and that did it. After spending one winter freezing in the barn and the daughter deciding she was going to move in with me, I had to start looking for my own horse.

                                We do so much at the barn together, we laugh and joke, she is a ginormous help, she's horse savvy, fearless. She's smart and I am so so so grateful for her.

                                She went to college in 2007. I figured that she would not come home as we live in a small town and once the kids leave they often don't come back except to visit. So I planned on selling my mare and getting on with my life....paying off the house, traveling, whatever. Nope. DD informed me last year she is coming home for at least a year and we ended up with not 2 but 3 horses.

                                Doing the horses together has kept us close and although at 52 I am ready to not be so cold all the time, ready for the heavy lifting and hard work to ease up...I would not trade all those hours at the barn with my daughter for anything you could name.


                                • #36
                                  How does a mother change a light bulb?
                                  "Oh, never mind me, you go ahead, I'll just sit here in the dark."
                                  What a warped I'm-a-victim attitude.

                                  I had an acquaintance once tell me, "It's important for my daughter that her mother is happy!" What an even more warped it's-all-about-me attitude that was.

                                  Horses are good for kids, they teach a lot of important lessons in life.
                                  Showing horses isn't important or high priority.

                                  There is no reason for the family to sacrifice so their kid can show horses at any level. If the kid only enjoys horses if they can show, shop for expensive riding togs and attend big name trainer clinics etc....they really aren't interested in horses, only the social cache that comes with hanging around with other rather spoiled darlings.

                                  There is no reason for a parent (usually mom) to sacrifice riding so their kid can ride beyond "fun" and trail rides. This is akin to the kid only wanting a BMW and not being interested in driving if it's only a Honda in the garage....and the parents driving crap to pay for the Beemer'.

                                  Of course, I think it's idiotic for parents to blow their retirement for their kid's skating lessons and far away shows....stupid!

                                  Don't live through your child, let them share your life.
                                  "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"


                                  • #37
                                    I have two daughters that ride and are in Pony Club. they compete as well. they clinic and lesson. the expenses are crazy. that and with each of them have their own horses and gear (helmets, boots, show clothes, saddles, etc ...)

                                    I was lucky to find one really nice Pony Club horse cheap from a rescue. the other was too much $$ but I got a multi-year payment plan. for myself I purchased a high end project horse, older warm-blood small and no training so I got a huge discount on his purchase.

                                    we all manage to at least run at our goals each show season. occassionally I will forgo a show I wanted to attend so that my kids can compete instead but that's a choice - it's impossible to support two eventing kids at one show and show yourself.

                                    in summary I have not given up my riding goals but instead continue to pursue them, albeit at a lower level and not as quickly as I'd like.


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Trakehner View Post
                                      Horses are good for kids, they teach a lot of important lessons in life.
                                      Showing horses isn't important or high priority.

                                      There is no reason for the family to sacrifice so their kid can show horses at any level. If the kid only enjoys horses if they can show, shop for expensive riding togs and attend big name trainer clinics etc....they really aren't interested in horses, only the social cache that comes with hanging around with other rather spoiled darlings.

                                      There is no reason for a parent (usually mom) to sacrifice riding so their kid can ride beyond "fun" and trail rides. This is akin to the kid only wanting a BMW and not being interested in driving if it's only a Honda in the garage....and the parents driving crap to pay for the Beemer'.

                                      Of course, I think it's idiotic for parents to blow their retirement for their kid's skating lessons and far away shows....stupid!

                                      Don't live through your child, let them share your life.
                                      I don't agree with this on quite a few levels -

                                      First, yes horses teach our children a lot, but so does showing. I have seen my child set goals, get organized, focus and achieve through her showing. She works hard to maintain her grades, because her showing depends on it. She doesn't wait til the last moment to do reports and projects because she know she will probably be at a show. She also see her riding as something she might want to follow as a career choice at some level and I support that.

                                      We have just built a new barn and ring for her to bring her horse home. We did most of the work ourselves, have sacrificed a lot to get it done and do not regret any of it. I will probably not retire when I am 59 1/2 but I will have enjoyed watching and helping my daughter try her best to achieve her goals. When she is finished college she can come home to run our farm or go elsewhere and do whatever she wants, but I will know that I gave her that opportunity - its my retirement fund and I will do what I want with it!


                                      • #39
                                        Can someone explain?

                                        Why, oh why, you choose to have children? Whether you are into horses or not, but especially so then. I never hear people talk about their kids other than to complain about them! I just do not get why anyone would needlessly complicate their life in that way. And, by the way, I am in my 50's, in case you think that I will "grow out" of this way of thinking.


                                        • #40
                                          You know, I wish I had the ability to explain why I have enjoyed raising my daughter so much. It sure wasn't all peaches and cream. I teach school and like children fine, as I like people of many ages, but wasn't ever one to dream and long for a flock of kids. And really have trouble accepting spoiled selfish kids. My husband is good with kids and we decided we wanted a family. Wanted two but only got one. Not being especially domestic or naturally "mothering" I was surprised what a neat experience it has been, stressful yes, but leading me down very unexpected paths and enriching my life in unexpected ways. (Also learning self control...she did live to grow up in spite of making me very angry at times) So...no...not everyone needs to have kids, luckily we can make the choice. But...not being a person that spent her life dreaming of children...I understand your position (although your question seemed worded a little rudely) I have to say until you experience it it is hard to understand. I am glad you are happy with your life style just realize parenting is not all good or bad but makes for an interesting life. And...I forgot, you fall rediculously in love with your offspring after they are born.
                                          Last edited by flea; Dec. 29, 2008, 01:40 PM. Reason: adddition