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An eventer judges an open show and nearly causes a riot..UPDATE on page 2

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  • Velvet, the course is set up at the beginning of th eday, and generally only adjusted for height (in hunters - there are some couse/distance changes in jumpers at larger shows).

    Your first trip may consist of a single coming home, outside 5 going away, 6 across the diagonal coming home, single oxer diagonal going away, ending with an outside 4 to a 4 coming home. Then your next class may be a different single, the diagonal single oxer to the outside 4 going away, the 4 to 4 coming home, the outside 5 going away, ending with the diagonal 6 coming home. In each case the same line will ride an entirely different way. Especially that 4 to a 4 and 6 coming home... And even though they are vastly different rides, part of what the judge is looking for is your consistancy between them.

    Then on day two you will have a different course, with the same idea - ride it two ways. Sure it would be nice ot have a new course for every class, but not possible to change height and fences that many times in one day. Even the jumper classes mostly just change direction add/subtract a few fences between division classes. Distances/complexity is modified between divisions.

    Call your village. Their idiot is missing...
    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but I would think they would make you do straight jumping for one class, equitation on the flat for another, and a more difficult course for the third one. Is that what is happening? Are they judging it differently? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      At a typical H/J show, there are 3 DIFFERENT types of classes going on.
      1 - Hunters, where the horse is being judged. You could be the worst rider in the world, but if your horse goes around the best you can win.
      2- Equitation, where the rider is being judged. Both horse and rider have to look good because it is the effectiveness of the equitation that is making the horse go properly.
      3- Jumpers, get over the course fastest with the fewest faults. Doesn't matter if the round is pretty, if the horse is pretty or if the rider is pretty. BUT the effective rider who knows leads, distances, etc. with the scopey brave horse will usually come out on top.

      Everyone at our barn starts out with hunters and equitation....proper hunt seat equitation will allow a rider to branch out into any discipline they choose. Hunters helps with the foundation of pace, distance, etc. so if the rider chooses to move into jumpers and be riding against a clock, the foundation for it all is there.
      But you aren't going to ever see all 3 disciplines combined into one specific class (except for the WIHS Equitation class, but the bottom line of that one is equitation anyway.)
      Susan

      Comment


      • Jumpers are not part of the "division" that we're talking about. You're talking about the overall show, I was talking about a division.

        (Thanks for the details, DMK and Liverpool.)

        It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
        "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm with you on angles of approach and rate/speed changing difficulty, but I would think they would make you do straight jumping for one class, equitation on the flat for another, and a more difficult course for the third one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Velvet, equitation isn't part of the division, either.

          ''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
          - Pablo Picasso
          'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
          - Pablo Picasso

          Comment


          • Equitation and hunters aren't in the same division.

            At some of the locally rated shows I've gone to, riders will use the same horse for equitation and hunters. But at most of the larger rated shows, they'll use a different horse for each: an eq specialist horse and a hunter.

            It would be nice to have totally different fences for each class--but then you'd have to wait for the jump crew to set up a whole new course! We'd get even more delays to pester those eventers who infiltrate our ranks!

            Comment


            • "Anne, you obviously think a ten jump warm-up is pretty minimal."

              Subk, please tell me where I said that. My point was simply that each horse might require something different or special in its warmup, and back to back classes eliminate this need more than once in a show day.

              "Though preparing a horse to jump confidently round an upper level cross country course is really a lot more than "just getting round")

              Janet, I meant no disrespect by my "just get around" comment. I was referring only to an event horse's warmup for its show jumping phase, not cross country.

              Comment


              • For the less elderly - who probably have been doing b2b classes since the beginning - my memories of "the old h/j days" (late 70's/early 80's)...

                (not intended to imply "better" or "worse")

                Divisions were normally spread over two days (Jr and A/O both Sat and Sun, for example). So, unless your horse was in more than one division, you were not tacking/untacking all day long...just twice usually. In a 5-class division, I recall doing 2 o/f classes on Sat and then 2 o/f and a hack on Sun. Usually a couple of hours between classes. This was just the way it was and I never thought it made for cranky horses. Everyone just expected to be there the whole day, both days, and horses were adjusted to the rhythm of the day.

                Some of the aspects I liked about the old shows(not looking for fights or arguments...just MHO) were:
                - time between classes to make changes to tack, fix braids, chill out if you had a bad trip, etc.
                - at multi-ring shows, sometimes the judges would swap rings each day...nice if one of the judges didn't like you, or saw you have a bad trip.
                - pace made for more of a "social event" atmosphere. We normally didn't have a "hurry up and wait" feeling because we expected to be there all day anyway. At the shows I've done this year (trailered in), I've tended to take off after my classes are done since horse has nothing to do at that point except stand by/in the trailer.
                - ribbon presentations were part of the class, even if no jog. More fun if you won, I think!

                I do think the size of horse shows now and the proliferation of the under-3ft divisions necessitates doing things differently. There are advantages/disadvantages either way and many seem to prefer the b2b classes.

                Comment


                • Part of being 'champion' in a hunter division is proving consistency, so jumping one class only would kind of defeat that. Yes the courses change for each class.

                  'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
                  Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

                  Comment


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Velvet:
                    Jumpers are not part of the "division" that we're talking about. You're talking about the overall show, I was talking about a division,
                    ()_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Equitation isn't a part of the hunter division either...hunters are judged on the horse alone, and I have seen some pretty strange equitation produce blue ribbon/championship hunter rounds.
                    Susan

                    Comment


                    • Cool. I had no idea. I was told that there was a flat (equitation) class and then two classes over fences as part of a division.

                      It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)
                      "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"

                      Comment


                      • Velvet - the "flat" class in the division (also known as the "hack") judges the horse's movement on the flat - not the rider's equitation. The whole division judges the horse - the o/f portion judges jumping form, and the hack judges movement/carriage on the flat.

                        __________________________________
                        You put on the leather pants and the pants start telling you what to do. -Bono

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Velvet:
                          Cool. I had no idea. I was told that there was a flat (equitation) class and then two classes over fences as part of a division.

                          _ It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)_
                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You were told wrong. A hunter division consists of one "under saddle" class, in which the HORSE is judged on its "way of going". There are 2 or more (more usually only if the division runs over multiple days) classes over fences. The points from the "over fences" classes and the points from the "under saddle" class are added together to deterimine the Champion and resere.

                          Equitation is not JUDGED in any of the hunter classes, though obviously a better rider is likely to produce a better round.

                          The multiple over fences rounds do two things- they make jumping more important than "under saddle" in determining the Champion. They make consistency in jumping important in determining champion. Just giving more points to the over fences classes wouldn't do that.

                          Equitation classes and divisions are very different. Often there isn't an "equitation division" with a championship at all (especially in schooling shows). Justa collection of individual classes withdifferent entry criteria. Sometimes a single class will have both an "over fences" phase and a "flat" phase. Other times there are separate "over fences" and "flat" classes. These are judged on the rider's equitation. Often more emphasis is placed on correct position than effectiveness. And obviously a "good" horse helps, even though it is the rider that is being judged.

                          Janet
                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                          Janet

                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
                            But as FlightCheck's desire to show people a better path <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Better in what way?

                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Velvet: Why can't you just do what happens at dressage shows where small or super busy shows usually have one classes points count towards qualifying for awards in another area--all they do is have the competitors pay a double fee.

                            What are you gaining? A second chance? Your first score still matters in the end...
                            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            You don't gain a second chance, you gain a second score. The four over fences and one hack create a cumulative score for the championship and for year-end points.


                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle: Was I bummed when our second trip (which I thought was better than the first) didn't place? You betcha.
                            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            This just drives me crazy and tle, I am not picking on you because I hear it from hunter competitors all the time. Why is it not possible that the people who pinned ahead of you in the second class ALSO all improved? It is a different class. You were not judged against your previous trip, you were judged against the second trips of all the other competitors.

                            Your numerical score for the first class might have been a 75 and the second an 82. However, there were only three people with a score better than 75 in the first class, while there were seven with a score better than 82 in the second. You were better, but so was the competition.
                            *****
                            You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                            Comment


                            • You know, I doubt that there would have been so much eventer-bashing and teeth-gnashing if FlightCheck hadn't made her first post with such obvious glee at poking her finger in the eye of hunter people. And if others hadn't started poking in their fingers, too.

                              Perhaps if she had phrased the original post differently, we hunter folks wouldn't have our knickers in such a twist. Just a thought.

                              I also think that since many terms have different meanings to different folks, FlightCheck could have been more precise in her opening salvo. Nowhere in it does she mention that this is a schooling show; to me (and I'm sure others), an "open show" does not inherently mean a schooling show -- our county, C- and B-shows are all "open shows," too.

                              Re the whole wait issue: Funnily enough, ever since the advent of cell phones, I really haven't had a problem with waiting around at shows for my division to start. As long as I'm not in the first class of the morning, I can call the show secretary and ask for an estimate. Or I can call a barnmate who's showing. Or my coach.

                              Or, gasp, I can just enjoy a day out with my horse! Beats working.

                              ***Dear Sam: OK, you win. Flying changes, flying schmanges. You are now officially a trail horse. Happy now??***
                              Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

                              Comment


                              • I would leave that show, never go back, create an alter and write slander about it on COTH

                                ---
                                What is it we all used to say?

                                Never apologize, never explain?

                                Well, I haven't and I don't!
                                -----

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This just drives me crazy and tle, I am not picking on you because I hear it from hunter competitors all the time. Why is it not possible that the people who pinned ahead of you in the second class ALSO all improved? It is a different class. You were not judged against your previous trip, you were judged against the second trips of all the other competitors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Midge, no offense directly taken, but from what I observed I didn't see the competition in that light (that so many also improved).... but I do understand what you're talking about.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Janet, I meant no disrespect by my "just get around" comment. I was referring only to an event horse's warmup for its show jumping phase, not cross country.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Ann... Janet's comments also pertain to SJ at events (especially at advanced where the highest fences can now be up to 4'3"). We really are the kick-n-go hill billies that the stereotype makes us all out to be.

                                  ************
                                  If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

                                  "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
                                  ************
                                  "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                                  "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                                  Comment


                                  • tle, while I don't event (or at least not recently, and certainly not at the highest levels) my guess is that an event warm up for SJ would be in part geared to that tricky balance between trying to get your horse to soften and respond a bit quicker after his day of bold and fast on cross country and not wasting too much of your horse who has already patiently carried your butt around a cross country course and dressage test. And my guess is that in warming up for the cross country phase you are really trying to get your horse ready to jump the first few jumps which are generally inviting, then let the natural build of the course prep him for the more difficult latter half.

                                    If that is the case, it is certainly is not without its challenges (I am forever in awe of a horse who knows it's OK to jump through that brush jump or slide over that log on a bank but not to touch that pole set on flat cups), but it isn't (and it shouldn't be) the same as warming up a fresh horse for a course that is far less physically demanding, but way more technical (jumpers) or a hunter course where he must maintain perfection in the minutest of detail at the very first jump to the very last jump.

                                    Of course I get equally frustrated by anyone who doesn't see that there just might be a good reason that every discipline does certain things a certain way. Not that every discipline can't find ways to improve, but it's good to understand why things are done they way they are before you start process engineering and fixing Item A may make Item A hum right along, but if B-E go to hell, it's still a problem.


                                    Midge, I am still trying to figure out how to get everybody to NOT improve on Sunday. I am just so damn good on day two. It irritates the tar out of me when everyone else wakes up with a better eye as well!

                                    Call your village. Their idiot is missing...
                                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                    Comment


                                    • DMK, I am only competing at the lower levels (N and T), but when I warm up for CC or SJ, I am preparing for the hardest "test" on the course.

                                      For instance, if there is a fence anywhere on the course wher you have to (or there is an advantage to) jump it on an angle from right to left, I will jump a warmup fence on an angle from right to left. The horse already knows how to jump on an angle, but this reminds her that she knows.

                                      Similarly if there is a fence wheere you need to turn immediately after landing, or jump off a very short approach, I will do that in warmup.

                                      And since one of the biggest challenges in cross country is the transition between galloping between fences, and riding TO the fnece. I will often pick up a real hand gallop, and then make a transition 4 or 5 strides out (closer than the tranistion I will make on course) to a "show jumping stride" and ride for the base of a vertical.

                                      So while it is different from h/j, it IS pretty technical, even at the lower levels, and not just preparing for the first few (nominally, but not always really) simple fences.

                                      Janet
                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment


                                      • Janet, in its own way, even a good western pleasure class is technical (and stressful!). It's just that I think h/j jumper courses are (or should be) more technical in nature than the sj phase - or cross country phase of CT. That's as it should be when you are testing a very narrow portion of a horse's overall ability.

                                        Other than that, I am not sure I get your point.

                                        Call your village. Their idiot is missing...
                                        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                        Comment


                                        • My point is that the WARM UP for CC and SJ IS technical. And that it is NOT "trying to get your horse ready to jump the first few jumps which are generally inviting, then let the natural build of the course prep him for the more difficult latter half."

                                          The "natural build of the course" does NOT prep him for the short appraoch, the turn on landing, the skinny, or the jump on an angle. In fact, the "natural build of the course" makes those tests MORE difficult.

                                          Janet
                                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                                          Janet

                                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                          Comment

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