An eventer judges an open show and nearly causes a riot..UPDATE on page 2

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by subk:
Anne, you obviously think a ten jump warm-up is pretty minimal. How many jumps in warm-up are average and or reasonable, 15, 20, 25? Plus 8 to 10 in each class. So how many total jumping efforts in a day of showing? Not being critical here, but I think it's an interesting question...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends on the horse and the class. My trainer once said of my former hunter that "less is more" and boy was he right. Ten jumps would have been overkill. But he had the best jump of any horse I owned, so we weren't tuning his jump too much, just giving him enough confidence to feel good about the first jump in the ring (like most hard jumping hunters he had a bit of spook in him - the idea is to use that to your advantage). My current hunter is about average - maybe 15 jumps if it is a 3'0 class, but a 3'6 usually requires a few more (but the vast majority of jumps are not at max height - it's more about rhythm when you start your warm up, then you finish with a jump tune). He has a great oxer, but you have to reinforce the "stand off the vertical" option (in his mind and the pilot's mind) before you go in the ring. And we won't even discuss what happens if the pilot loses her eye mid warm up That'll cost you a few more jumps.

As to those who don't know how you can possibly prep a horse during warm up, I think it's fairly obvious that it took training and gymnastics to get a quality animal to the ring. But how many sports do you know use the same prep going into competition as they do for their daily work? If you don't understand it, I would invite you to watch a few top riders prepping green to made horses. You will probably learn a few things.

I don't have anything against eventing. When I have played around with it, I love it. I love most of the eventing folks I have met, but on the other hand they haven't told me or implied that I am a mindless idiot for riding hunters either. It's a 'tude like that that gives me a bad taste.

I don't have anything against people who like scheduled rides, but I am really confused as to why such a person would even care about a looser system if it didn't impact them. I'm sure there are things about other disciplines that would really bother me, it's just that life is too damn short to waste it getting an ulcer about that which doesn't directly effect me.

But when it comes to scheduling times, I just don't see how it is feasible at schooling shows where entries are added all day long (and that is the nature of a schooling show), or at a large rated show where there are 5 to 8 rings running and entries go in until the night before. Sorry, it might be possible, but my gut feeling is that it would create more work for everyone at hand than the current system. And more importantly, when show management designates which rings have priority and tell folks that, and arm their ring stewards with radios, then you simply don't have ring delays. An individual may have a trainer delay, but the rings keep right on rolling. Hell my trainer has been caught at a priority ring when my slot was coming up, and all I did is check with my ring steward, tell him that I was up in 6 trips and the trainer was stuck in jumperland. He got on the radio, told jumper land that we were next in line for said trainer (in case there was a 3rd ring looking for him, and yes that has happened). I was moved down X trips. I hacked my horse, popped over a few X's and went straight to warm up as soon as the trainer arrived. The ring was never empty. Yes, I had to wait a bit more than planned, but that is just the dynamics of riding with a trainer who has 25 or more horses at a large show. That's my problem, not the show's. And it didn't delay anyone but me, but I am OK with it. If I wasn't, I would change trainers. End of story.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

[slp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> (Though I must say I have not seen many eventers cross cantering in the corners on stadium!! Yes, there is occasionally a scary ride that should not be there at the level they're at, but there are equally scary rides in the hunter world too!!)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We were at a 'B' rated show this past weekend, and there were quite a few eventers there in the jumper classes getting in some practice for the big show this weekend. Good for them. However, with the exception of a few riders that regularly participate in the jumper classes for these necessary tune-ups before an event (and they are the ones that I notice WINNING regularly at their events - they were winning in the jumper classes too) I have never seen so many wrong leads, poor distances, cross cantering, lazy front ends, and 30+ fault rounds. Some horses knocked down every single fence in a 3' jumper class. And these were people that all compete in novice/training level.
The hunter rings were on the other side of the show grounds, but comparing hunters to stadium jumping is apples to oranges IMO so I'm not going there, can't add anything to the discussion that hasn't already been said.

Susan

[tle]

Ok, so I lied. Sue me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't have anything against people who like scheduled rides, but I am really confused as to why such a person would even care about a looser system if it didn't impact them. I'm sure there are things about other disciplines that would really bother me, it's just that life is too damn short to waste it getting an ulcer about that which doesn't directly effect me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference is that a LOT more eventers take their horses to local H/J shows than hunters take their horses to local events. Thus there IS some leeway for eventers to talk about things they wish were different at hunter shows. I've done 3 shows this year... an event with my mare, a H/J show with my mare and a H/J show with the barn owner's filly. Interesting breakdown in types of shows I've been too, wouldn't you say? Especially in light of the "don't talk about what you don't know" argument.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[Sleepy]

The difference is that eventers are there for the experience. They probably aren't members of the local association putting on the show. And they certainly aren't after points.

The hunters are working on having a perfect trip. For those who may only show locally, they may be concerned about local/series points or state points. The way they warm up/get to the ring concerns them far more than an eventer just there for the experience. So yes, they are the ones whose opinions matter. If you don't want to play by the rules in their sandbox, go to an event instead.

''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
- Pablo Picasso

[QueenMother]

I have not read all of the posts so far -- i promise I will go back and do it! -- but something occurred to me that had not been addressed by page 3:

This was a schooling show.

I presume it was a hunter/hunt seat equitation schooling show.

The "schooling" that went on, then was schooling in preparation for a rated hunter/hunt seat equitation show.

How do the rules posted for this schooling show ring prepare a beginning rider for what is to come?

Certainly, if a child moves out of this ring believing that strides don't count, that it's better to do a simple change than no change at all, that a judge will (or is even allowed) to give you direct comments after your course/division, that somehow your entry number determines you order of go, then the "schooling" has been counterproductive.

My opionion only.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
Ok, so I lied. Sue me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but I am really confused as to why such a person would even care about a looser system if it didn't impact them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've done 3 shows this year... an event with my mare, a H/J show with my mare and a H/J show with the barn owner's filly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say it "impacted" you and therefore you were not the subject of my mini rant which was very specific in nature (i.e., if you don't go to hunter shows, and you don't plan on going to hunter shows, why would you care?) But there is some rhyme and reason to the issue of waiting times that is inevitable due to the nature of schooling shows. If you don't like the waiting, may I suggest awell run A2 show?

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

[pwynnnorman]

Madison...four pages later, sorry...you are right. I most certainly didn't mean to sound condescending.

But as FlightCheck's desire to show people a better path at the local levels indicate, sometimes--maybe TOO often, yes--trainers DO oversimplify and that, I think, makes SOME riders a little too dependent, too--and the result is that they lack the confidence to analyze for themselves what happened (and, sorry folks, but a horse doesn't just up and start hanging a knee on course--and when it does hang a knee, you CAN feel it). Lots of people show successfully without a trainer at the rail.

The following isn't a trainer thing, but it does illustrate how a person can get the wrong impression of reality if someone is ALWAYS out there oversimplifying it for them: Just a while back, I had to try to explain to a (and I really don't like "labeling" like this) hunter rider why, IMO, her daughter should NOT be able to take her made h-j (and d, too) warmblood to a dressage show and win at first level (in spite of what her trainer said). The horse gets ridden all of once or twice a week, if he's lucky. But there's more to dressage, especially first level, than just w-t-c'ing around in patterns, and so you shouldn't get away with just whipping the poor creature out of his stall, stiff and unfit, and win anything.

(Then again, if all horse sports required a fit and supple horse, there'd be one heck of a lot fewer exhibitors, wouldn't there?)

But her trainer didn't tell her anything about the horse's lack of fitness or suppleness. She just encouraged her to go out and show. Anyway, my point is that, these days, a big part of maybe too many trainers' jobs involve keeping things simple for their clients (after all, what are the most popular adjectives when selling a hunter, especially a pony? "Easy, simple, uncomplicated..."

But again, my point is that that is FINE as long as one is aware that that is what is going on. I'd LOVE to be able to just RIDE. Madison, you said some people like to absorb as much as possible. I'm sure thats true, but I suspect that MORE, these days, want to "just do it." A lot of the way shows are set up allow for exactly that.

Sportponies Unlimited
Now in New Jersey, 30 mins. south of Philadelphia, PA.
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com

[Madison]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wendy:
all I've got to say is, I would certainly like to go to more hunter shows, but I just can't deal with the complete lack of time structure. I've been to three local hunter shows-- first one, we called the day before and were told to arrive at noon. The schooling break was indeed at noon. Then we sat around on the horses, waiting for our actual class to start. After waiting around for hours we finally just packed up and left. Later learned our division hadn't gone until 6 pm. With no other chance to school/warmup between noon and that time, unless you wanted to ride your horse out in the paved stable yard. Second show, we called the morning of and were told to arrive at 9:30 for schooling. We arrive, only to find our division already in progress. We didn't even unload the horses, just turned around and left. Third show, we ended up getting there on time for the schooling break, but then we had sit around on the horses for an hour, while they got cool, bored, and cranky, before we actually were allowed to compete. I'm not going to any more hunter shows. My horse requires a particular type of warmup to perform his best, and I can't possibly do it if I have no idea of how long I'm going to be sitting around between schooling and showing. I'm sticking with combined tests and eventing, when you know exactly when you need to bring your horse to his peak of warmup.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I swore I wasn't going to venture back into these waters, but here I go again

Wendy, if in fact you really want to go to more hunter shows, I dare say you might have a different view if you found some better shows, and asked a couple different questions - a number of things you say in your post make it easy to see where improvements could be made in your experience without having to change the way hunter shows are run.

1. Find schooling shows with schooling areas that meet your needs. Your post makes it sound like you are trying to school in the ring, then don't want to have to wait to show, which just doesn't work (most shows around here don't even have a schooling break - you get in the ring the day before, or early the morning of). But, there should be schooling shows available with fully equipped if chaotic schooling rings. If you want to school in the ring itself then show, choose divisions right after the schooling break or first thing in the morning. Otherwise, you are just going to have to use the warm-up ring like everyone else.

2. Check the entries and communicate with the gate people. You can calculate within a reasonable range how long the wait is, barring falls, etc. . . Figure 2 minutes per trip, and about 15 minutes for the hack. You can't just call show management and expect them to give you a time that's anything other than an estimate - they can't anticipate scratches and adds (if allowed), falls, or other problems, or even a judge who runs extra-long hacks.

3. You don't have to sit on your horse and let them get cranky. Calculate the wait, and untack. Get a stall if available, or if you trailer in, either tie to the trailer or put your horse back on. Totally unnecessary to sit on your horse for an hour or more. After we do our jumping rounds, we take our horses back to the barns if there are even as few as 8-10 trips before the hack because that's still 15-20 minutes if they are all lined up, and that's plenty of time to cool them off. All a matter of asking the right questions, and following the announcements re: how many trips left, etc . . .

You say your horse requires a particular kind of warmup, and that's fine, but if that's why a hunter show doesn't work for you, then don't blame hunter shows, and just stick with what does work for you. But, it sounds like you could find some shows that would provide you with a better experience than what you've had before.

And if you are an adult, may I also recommend taking a couple of friends and a cooler with "adult beverages", which can also help with that wait time

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

[Madison]

pwynnorman, thanks for clarifying. I think what you describe is a trainer problem, rather than a hunter show problem, which probably could be a whole separate thread with a life of its own

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

[JinxyFish313]

I swear I must be the only person that enjoys spending a whole day at a show. I can honestly say I've never minded the 'hurry up and wait', its part of the fun.

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The difference is that eventers are there for the experience. They probably aren't members of the local association putting on the show. And they certainly aren't after points.

The hunters are working on having a perfect trip. For those who may only show locally, they may be concerned about local/series points or state points. The way they warm up/get to the ring concerns them far more than an eventer just there for the experience. So yes, they are the ones whose opinions matter. If you don't want to play by the rules in their sandbox, go to an event instead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I beg to differ. "The points" may not be my PRIMARY objective, But I certainly double check the VHSA page to make sure they have my points right.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Velvet]

I don't have time to read all the replies, but I've read about three pages.

Why do you have to go over the same fences and course twice and then do a flat class. Why can't you just do what happens at dressage shows where small or super busy shows usually have one classes points count towards qualifying for awards in another area--all they do is have the competitors pay a double fee. They ride once, but the score counts for that class and then it also counts for other classes. (It depends on what you're going for, but they often do this so your horse only has to do that class once.)

Back-to-back seems ridiculous since all I've been hearing is that everyone rides the division and no one just rides in a single class. It would certainly save on the horses. I would think one trip around the jumps and one flat class would be plenty to decide a division anyway.

What are you gaining? A second chance? Your first score still matters in the end...

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[tle]

I would also beg to differ. Just because an eventer may have a laid back attitude and a "just do it" outlook, rest assured that there IS in an overwhelming majority a competitive spirit to do our best. Did I go to the show with the barn owner's filly as a "get her out" experience? Yeah. Was I bummed when our second trip (which I thought was better than the first) didn't place? You betcha.

Don't mistake "out for experience" for "I don't care how we do"

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[QueenMother]

Velvet -- you're kidding, right?
Or maybe you're not talking about a hunter division?

Why not get a score at one show (or, since they don't score most hunter courses, just get a blue ribbon) and just use that score (or blue ribbon) at all your other shows during the season?

You could be undefeated with one show!

Maybe I just don't understand your point.

[Liverpool]

Velvet, for what it's worth, the courses are not the same in the first round and second round, although qualifying for Classics often happens exactly the way you describe - one of the rounds in the regular division is the qualifying round for the classic, and the score in that round "counts twice" in that regard.

Points are awarded separately and it is absolutely possible to redeem yourself with a second trip as far as the division points go. The question you pose is a little like asking why a figure must be repeated in a dressage test... I mean, if you've circled once at A, why require it again somewhere else later in the test? Because that is part of the test, and there may be different transitions before or after, yes? Same goes for the second round of a hunter course. Perhaps one course shows off the ability of the horse and rider to hunt down to a big single oxer while another round demonstrates the ability to flow through a particular line.

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

[Velvet]

Liverpool,

That's what I was thinking. If you are in an class that can also be used for qualifying in another area.

I know I wasn't very clear (pre-lunch brain drain). Here's what I mean.

You have to qualify for a year end championship and you must ride a specific test. To help things along, you ride in an open test at the show and have the points go towards qualifying for the championship--and it doesn't matter if it was a good or bad test, you've already paid for it just as you would a separate class. So, that one qualifies you or it doesn't.

It's all prepaid (and a fee as if you were riding in your own qualifying class) so it's all a risk. And no, it doesn't carry over to the championship. It just gets you qualified--or not.

Then at the end of the year you still have to ride in a class against all the other qualifiers.

I see that this isn't the same, now. That the course is different, but does that mean you ride the fences one way to start and then do a different course around the same fences for your back-to-back ride? That also seems a bit off. I would think more of alteration in some of the jumps between classes would make it more challenging, not just changing the order you jump them.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[Flipper K.]

Madison, you said exactly what I was thinking, but I was just ready to write something like, "If you give up that easily, how will you ever succeed in anything?"

I am glad you took the time to give an eloquent, thoughtful, and helpful response. Looking at mine typed above, it sounds like something my Dad would say! Aaaaaaaaaaaaagh!

Wendy, I hope you take Madison's advice and try again, this time at a show that might be more fun for you.

Because in the end, a conversation between the 4 year old girl I took into the leadline class on Saturday and the judge sums it all up --

Judge (to my rider, after introductions): "OK, Miranda, I'd like to see you walk around the corner, ask your pony to trot, stop before the fence, reverse, and trot back to me. And I'd like to see you smile, and have fun."

Miranda: "Fun is what riding horses is all about."

(Yes, she got the blue )

[Liverpool]

Velvet, it depends on the show. At the better/nicer/often larger shows, there are multiple options and not all jumps will be used in every round, so there might be more variation in the jumps; at others, it may be just the same jumps in a different order.

As an aside, using the same jumps in a different order is not as straightforward as it might sound (similar to the example I used above, where a certain figure may be more or less difficult depending upon the gait or figure preceding it.)

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

[Velvet]

Liverpool,

I'm with you on angles of approach and rate/speed changing difficulty, but I would think they would make you do straight jumping for one class, equitation on the flat for another, and a more difficult course for the third one. Is that what is happening? Are they judging it differently? I just think other fences would add to the difficulty for the rider since they have to memorize the course. And different fences can alter how a horse jumps--you can also make the bigger, smaller, more scary, etc. Just seems there should be a real difference in the third class.

Maybe I don't understand. Maybe there is a big difference and it isn't a repeat of the first class--which is how it sounded in the discussion out here.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[RugBug]

Yipes! What a thread.

I have to say something about the trainer/ring wait thing...something I think hasn't been mentioned in the seven pages I read.

I don't need my trainer to warm me up and I don't need her to stand by the ring. I like her there for the support, as a sounding board and because if she wasn't there, at some point our working relationship would suffer. If I am paying her to be there, I expect her to be there...except for the times it can't be helped. If she regularly missed my trips, I think I would start to resent the fact that I had to pay her for services I am not receiving. She deserves to be paid for her time and earns her day fee, but if I continually thwart her efforts to train me by going in the ring solo or she just never shows for my trips because of a conflict, there is possibility for strain in the relationship. I like my trainer, I think she does a good job, so I don't want the possibility of ruining our working relationship. This means I want her at the ring when I go...and in the warm-up to claim a fence and set if for me so I don't have to jump the other trainers leftovers.

tle: I don't think your less competitive, but if your hunter experiences are like my dressage or combined training experiences (isn't that what they call it when there is only stadium and dressage? ) it doesn't matter as much. I want to do my best on my dressage test or stadium round, but I want to excel in the hunter ring and am harder on myself and my horse when there. I expect more because that is what I train to do.

And I know that the majority of eventers aren't sastified with "just getting around"...but in the end, that is what you are judged on, not how you did it, but that you did. If that was the case in hunters, I would be unbeatable.