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An eventer judges an open show and nearly causes a riot..UPDATE on page 2

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  • OK, just a few more observations.

    1) There is no rule requiring a hunter rider's trainer to be present at the ring during their round (or their warm up, for that matter.) The fact that many riders want the benefit of their coach's critique of their round does not imply that they could not jump around the course without said trainer being physically present to watch.

    2)Riders who are annoyed by so called trainer delays are free to go in the ring and get their rounds over and done with, without having to wait for anyone. Those who wish to do so can almost ALWAYS be first in the ring.

    3) Back to back rounds are also an *option,* and are often preferred for a number of reasons, including some that relate to the comfort of the horse.

    4)The point of presenting a hunter is to show the horse at its very best. Which generally includes quite a lot of finesse - even when they are not cranky. Just as I could get a less-than-optimally-fit horse around an XC course, it is possible to finesse a cranky horse for the minute plus it takes to get around the typical eight fence hunter course. However, neither scenario is optimum, and good competitors try to stack the deck in their favor by having their horse fit for the work, and optimally prepared for the ring. Get it?

    "It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

    \"It\'s a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it.\" ---W. Somerset Maugham

    Comment


    • didn't mean to imply that riders CAN'T get around the course with the trainer, just that alot WON'T. That its someone else's problem if the ring has to be held, delaying everyone else who isn't in that division (who could have already ridden as everyone has said) because they won't warmup without trainer.

      Isn't the point of showing at any show to present the horse at its best? Not JUST hunters? To get a good ride out of any horse at any show it requires quite a lot of finesse. In ANY discipline.

      I was just trying to say that hey, its possible to get a cranky horse to put in a good ride once in a while.


      So, when did it become the norm for competitors to run the shows?

      * Proud girlfriend of USAF Private 1st Class Grasley*
      See the Ring:
      http://www.snapfish.com/viewsharedph...803/l=16904050

      Comment


      • There's so much that could be said here....

        Yes, SWVHJA has multiple day un-USAEq-rated horse shows at the Virginia Horse Center, and many many horses are stabled there for the duration. These are probably the equivalent of a B rated show in the northeast and are not what I would consider the most basic of schooling shows.

        "Why not just...not jump ten or more jumps before every class? Warm up before the first class, then show. Maybe a jump or two before later classes to get back in that over-fences frame of mind, but...why would you need ten-plus jumps before every class?"

        Because it's not good enough for the hunter to simply get over the jump. Sure, a very naturally talented horse might only need a handful of jumps, but for every horse like that, there is one who takes a very unique, ritualized warmup to get to the ring in the right frame of mind with the right jump. For example, one horse might fall in to the left and miss the change, requiring a careful warmup plan. One might need to jump a cooler to get it backed off and looking a little. One might be a little limited and need the idea of land and go forward reinforced a couple of times. I could think of plenty of other situations like this, but the point is, the hunter has to be pretty, and it takes more jumps to accomplish that IMO than it does for the event horse who simply has to get around.

        Comment


        • There is a provision in the rule book that addresses potential delays in the schedule caused by horses/riders who are not ready - it is Article 310.

          When the start of any class requiring horses to be shown individually is delayed by horses not ready to perform, the competition may be closed at the order of the judges or show committee, provided a warning is issued and exhibitors are given three minutes to appear at the ingate ready to participate. In classes where horses compete collectively, a warning is issued and the ingate MUST be closed two minutes after the first horse enters the ring... (there is more but you can find the rule in its entirety on the USAE website.

          "It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham
          \"It\'s a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it.\" ---W. Somerset Maugham

          Comment


          • Anne, you obviously think a ten jump warm-up is pretty minimal. How many jumps in warm-up are average and or reasonable, 15, 20, 25? Plus 8 to 10 in each class. So how many total jumping efforts in a day of showing? Not being critical here, but I think it's an interesting question...

            Comment


            • Actually, I agree with the back to back CLASSES with a choice of whather you want back to back rounds or not.

              Also agree hunter warmup is different. (Though preparing a horse to jump confidently round an upper level cross country course is really a lot more than "just getting round")

              Waiting for trainers isn't generally an issue at schooling shows, as (at what I consider schooling shows) I have never seen more than 2 rings (1 hunter, 1 jumper).

              I just WISH there was a way to predict (within an hour) what time a division will go. I recognize that this is a direct consequence of the flexibility to enter (or not enter) on the day of the show. And NOT trying to change it. I am just wishing.

              And that is why I am more likely to go to a show at Cavallo, where "my division" runs first and is thus more predictable, even though it means getting up earlier, than at Oak Ridge, where "my division" runs last, and is thus highly unpredictable. Even though OakRidge is (actually was) only 3 miles from my house, and Cavallo is more like 15.

              Ev

              Janet
              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

              Comment


              • Oh good god people, please, lets get along and be nice, non-discipline-bashing riders (trainers, owners, observers, stewards, judges, et all), hunter,equitation, jumper, dressage, eventing, and racing alike.
                We understand that after 6 pages of mindless, and often times well thought out, bashing (however subtle it may be), that every discipline has its faults, and likewise, every discipline has its strong points.
                +Eventing and dressage has start times. Thats lovely, nice and schedualed, but can also be limiting in frustrating situations. +Hunters and Eq. and Jumpers is more loosely based around the riders/trainers personal needs, which, coincidently ALSO has its high points and its lows.
                -->Imagine that. Each discipline has a system that suits them, no matter how many holes people may see, how many points it can be bashed upon (or raved upon...if that makes any sense whatsoever).
                What I'm trying to say is something that has been said oh so many times before...and then buried by other ::cough:: posts. Please people, we know that every discipline has its bashers and haters, and every discipline also has its devotees and followers and praisers. Lets not bash eachother and create an even bigger hypocratic mess.

                Good Night, all...
                My god, You all post like every minute, it seems.
                n-i-g-h-t owls!

                &curren Britt &curren
                &curren Britt &curren

                Comment


                • 1.So, if each horse has a ritualized warm-up why can't it be timed out and the class performed at a predetermined time? And why don't the riders know their horses well enough to accomplish this sans trainer?

                  2.Yes, an event rider simply has to get around, but for most I think they desire a happy horse as well. And the stadium courses require some thought to ride clean.

                  3.Are the hunter riders completely incapable of determining what went wrong in their round?

                  4.I think most of the problems discussed stem from the show being too big/ too many classes.

                  6. Lastly, I don't understand why it's not okay to tack up several times in between classes in each division, but it's perfectly acceptable to show in two or three divisions total?

                  Comment


                  • peeking cautiously into the fray....

                    I have done some grooming at local horse trials, but never a real hunter show, so I have found the comments on here by people such as DMK to be very educational. While it cements my decision to work towards eventing, not the hunter ring, I hope this thread will help me better understand and appreciate those who do go that route.

                    For the person who mentioned the waits at events, I have found that there is not a great deal of waiting for the competitors/grooms, although it can seem interminable for those who are not. I found that there more often is just barely enough time between stadium and cross-country for the rider to change while the groom cools off the horse, puts on galloping boots, duct tape, etc. There might be a wait after dressage, but we use that time to cool off the horse, walk the courses, and check scores. I have rarely found myself in want of something to do while grooming for a rider with only one horse. I'd have to streamline my system for multiple horses. Just my experience grooming at the lower level one-day horse trials in Area II.

                    Life is short; make fun of it.
                    Founding Member, Bird Nerd Clique; Eventing Yahoo In Training
                    The plural of anecdote is not data.
                    Eventing Yahoo In Training

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by platterfeet:
                      1.So, if each horse has a ritualized warm-up why can't it be timed out and the class performed at a predetermined time? And why don't the riders know their horses well enough to accomplish this sans trainer?

                      Okay, we have already established that hunters pretty much know when their division will go on a given day (at other than local schooling shows). They (at least at our barn) know when to post for their class, and in respect of that, know when to be in the schooling ring for the trainer.

                      2.Yes, an event rider simply has to get around, but for most I think they desire a happy horse as well. And the stadium courses require some thought to ride clean.

                      Agreed. It was just a generalized statement about the vast difference between hunters and stadium jumping. Just because a horse gets aroung happily does not mean it does it with the style and finesse needed to win in the hunter ring.

                      3.Are the hunter riders completely incapable of determining what went wrong in their round?

                      Not necessarily true, as my dtr's trainer (and I imagine many others) will first ask the rider what they think happend in the round. Funny thing is that these riders are not professionals, and they pay a professional to train them.

                      4.I think most of the problems discussed stem from the show being too big/ too many classes.

                      Not true. The problems discussed stem from the very nature of today's hunter shows. I think people who show hunters are better at determining the origins of the problems in hunters than those who do not.

                      5. ?? Obviously this person failed at riding hunters because they could not count that 6-stride line correctly!

                      6. Lastly, I don't understand why it's not okay to tack up several times in between classes in each division, but it's perfectly acceptable to show in two or three divisions total?

                      Again, hunter show with two divisions, 4 to 5 classes total per day with two sets of back to back rounds equals three tack-up/warmup/schooling sessions. Eventing with one day horse trial equals three tack-up/warmup/schooling session. You take away the option for back to back rounds and you now have 5 tack-up/warmup/schooling sessions and a sour horse. Why should hunters go through this more often than eventers? Would you personally like to go through 5 different changes of clothes in one day? PS - I used eventing because I have no idea how many classes per day dressage takes, and in any case, they don't jump so it doesn't count! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      I personally don't know of anyone who shows in three divisions, but maybe it happens. We haven't shown much at rated shows, as our state assn has a very competitive unrated circuit with nice 3 day shows. Two divisions are enough over 3 days.

                      That all said, I did want to point out that most of those people who are complaining about X trainer holding up their ring, make no complaints when their ring is held up for their own trainer Y because they do not want to show without their trainer, either. And if trainer Z's students are waiting on trainer X or trainer Y, they can certainly move up and into the ring themselves. It is not just trainers who hold up rings all the time either. My own dtr held up an eq flat class because she was in the next ring riding a hunter u/s class (her trainer was also riding in the u/s class on another horse). She would have much preferred to ride the eq class first, but the hunter ring had preference that day.

                      ********
                      I'm just the mom.

                      Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                      Comment


                      • I have an idea. How about we try and learn from the strong points of other disciplines. Just a crazy idea. If Flight Check can incorporate her experience as an eventer wouldn't it be nice if we could appreciate the positive? Especially at a show where LEARNING is obviously the emphasis.

                        Marge, with today's gasoline prices, we can't afford NOT to buy a pony!
                        Marge, with today\'s gasoline prices, we can\'t afford NOT to buy a pony!

                        Comment


                        • I have been following this thread with some interest and don't quite understand the defensiveness of each side. I am a committed (or should be) eventer at this point but grew up riding hunters and equitation and had the good fortune to spend years riding with Victor Hugo-Vidal at Cedar Lodge Farm in its heyday in the early 70's. For various reason I won't go into, I changed years ago. But the two disciplines are so different, with very different paths to quite different goals so there seems almost no basis for an argument. I have always taken my young event horses -- and my daughters when they were eventing -- to hunter shows and hunter trainers to put some polish on their riding and how they put courses together. A nice hunter course with proper striding and inviting jumps really helps build a young horse's confidence as does getting to do the course a couple of times. A smooth and polished round is efficient and therefore -- at least at the lower levels of eventing where I spend my time -- produces a clear round with no time faults when you move to your Novice event.
                          Its reasonably easy to figure out what part of the day your division will run and you school a little, put your number in and hang out -- which is very good for green horses. Big shows, like the major events, all involve long days and a lot of hanging about. A fall or conflict in either discipline can delay things -- though the hunters seem more so and always have been. I like the back to back rounds -- definitely speeds things up from what I remember in the 'old days' and while I generally take a break in between our two rounds being an out of shape old lady, I try not to have to do more than catch my breath.

                          Anyway, I think perhaps the two disciplines have more to offer each other than tear each other apart. The h/j world can offer us eventers a chance to put some polish and practice into our stadium and a lot of hunters could benefit from the "get it done" attitude and the variety in the event world -- jump what is in front of you whether or not you have seen it before. My mare, definitely bought and brought along to be a serious event horse loves going to the hunter shows -- and gets ribbons -- she thinks all the straight lines and inviting distances are really fun and carries that feeling through to the other stuff we do. A big plus is between the hack and two over fences classes, my husband gets lots of video for me to pick apart and work on.

                          Kate
                          Kate

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> .Are the hunter riders completely incapable of determining what went wrong in their round? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                            Actually, yes.

                            _I_ certainly can't tell, from the back of the horse, for instance, if the knees and toes are completely even. And those things count in hunters.

                            Yes, you should be able to tell if you got to reasonable takeoff spots (no chips or long spots), and got your changes. But that is just the starting point- necessary but not sufficient.

                            Janet
                            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                            Janet

                            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                            Comment


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I know you asked how you can get a horse to peak right before your rounds. I'd answer but, honestly, I don't know that yet! I'm still at the point of considering it a successful day if I haven't hyperventilated! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              LOL!!! I'd say that's successful too!

                              (was going to comment on the number of warmup fences, but others already have)

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Second, and I know this is going to be taken wrong but if your an eventer you have no right to try and change the hunter rules, just as we have no right trying to change dressage or eventing or TB racing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Unless the eventer in question is hired as the judge of a hunter schooling show, as per the original post in this thread.... then one has the lattitude to ADJUST minor things.

                              Of course an eventer CAN try to modify the way hunters are run... just become a member of USAE and submit a rule change proposal.

                              subk... you're still my hero.

                              DMK and others, despite my passion for all things eventing and total frustration at waiting for hunter divisions when riding in them, I really do appreciate most of the responses here and have learned a few things. I have not ridden on any A circuit or anything, but have attended local shows and hope to in the future. Not going to argue any more today on this... not that I couldn't or don't want to continue the debate, just that I have other things that need my attention (hopefully a house closing this afternoon!).

                              Besides, even with a hunter point tallying in a past life, in my heart I do know that eventing is king!

                              ************
                              If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

                              "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
                              ************
                              "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                              "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tucked_Away:
                                Aha! Now I grok it. Thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                Ahh! You grok "grok". I love that book.


                                Okay, I've been reading along for the most of this (okay, I skimmed these last two pages, I admit it). I think that there is a huge divide between hunters and eventers and there's just no comparing the two. I was a hunter for 9 long years, and have recently switched to eventing, which I adore. I had been attempting to get into eventing for 6 years of those 9 (thanks to the Saddle Club ). Unfortunately there's not much eventer stuff around here and it took me until last summer to sell my green hunter horses and find the one and only event trainer around. Now that I'm into eventing, I love it.

                                However, I cannot claim that eventers are "better" than hunters. I enjoyed the hunters while I was there, but I must admit to being a bit too ... how do you say? impatient, maybe? for the hunters. I didn't like all the froof about clothes (ye gads, I still hate the color of puke green!), I didn't like waiting around on my horse for my ride, I didn't like the subjectiveness of the judging, and I didn't like the trainer-centric environment.

                                But, while I can say that none of that was for me, several of my friends are horrified by eventers. They don't like the bright colors (mine, btw, are bright purple, black, and silver ), the weird jumps (check out the "scariest jump" thread on eventing board), the hot horses, the speed over solid fences, etc. (Though I must say I have not seen many eventers cross cantering in the corners on stadium!! Yes, there is occasionally a scary ride that should not be there at the level they're at, but there are equally scary rides in the hunter world too!!)

                                Now I've just been pointlessly rambling, so keep in mind I've only had 3 hours of sleep and just got back from holding my mare while her shoe was tacked back on...after she just got it done last Wednesday.

                                But my main point is that hunters are a completely different world than eventers. It's useless to sit and argue which is better as it just depends on the rider's personality and personaly goals.

                                The real test is...If you think puke green matches everything; you're a hunter. If you think the more neon, the better; you're an eventer.

                                -Anne, formerly Pretty Filly, now Four Socks. The proud new owner of Greg!-
                                -Code Of Silence-

                                Comment


                                • Can someone tell me if FlightCheck is such an eventing person why FC was judging a H/J show in the first place.

                                  Funny how the so many like to do the hunter bashing thing..so very sad.

                                  "Some people need to buy the winners, others make them."
                                  Some people need to buy the winners, others make them.

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Can someone tell me if FlightCheck is such an eventing person why FC was judging a H/J show in the first place.
                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    Probably because

                                    1- it was a local schooling show in need of a judge
                                    2- FC is a knowledgible horse person who knows what correct leads and diagonals look like
                                    and 3- it was the beginner ring.

                                    Don't need a USAE Judge's card for that.

                                    ************
                                    If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

                                    "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
                                    ************
                                    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                                    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                                    Comment


                                    • One more time into the fray ~~~

                                      Janet: it is quite easy to figure out when a division will go at a local schoolingt show: Ask the show secretary (who is the listed name on the prize list) how the show ran last year. Or ask someone who attended the show the prior year.

                                      I bet you will get answers back like "This show always runs late and the 3' hunters never start before 4PM and the show is not over until dark".

                                      Evidently the schooling show in question has been running for years (same courses were mentioned). Shows do not change monumentally from year to year. It has been my experience that they will start at approximately the same time and end within about 30 minutes of when they ended the year before. If entries drop significantly, then the show is no longer a money maker for its organizers and it will not continue to exist. And rarely will a show go from a 6 hour show to a 10 hour show in one year.

                                      Benefits to the hunter way of doing things: Total flexibility. I trailer in and so, not needing a stall, I never enter until the day before my division starts. If the horse is not right or the weather too hot or too cold or too rainy or too sunny, I have the option right up until the last minute to not show.

                                      I am also aware that events fill up quickly. If entries are not sent in PERFECTLY filled out with all appropriate checks and membership cards on the day the prize list is received, they are rejected. I could not handle that. So I am happy with the flexibility provided by hunter shows and am willing to figure out when my classes will go as a trade off.

                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                      I CAN spell, I just can't type and I am too blind to proofread InfoPop's teeny tiny font.
                                      "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                                      Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

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                                      • all I've got to say is, I would certainly like to go to more hunter shows, but I just can't deal with the complete lack of time structure. I've been to three local hunter shows-- first one, we called the day before and were told to arrive at noon. The schooling break was indeed at noon. Then we sat around on the horses, waiting for our actual class to start. After waiting around for hours we finally just packed up and left. Later learned our division hadn't gone until 6 pm. With no other chance to school/warmup between noon and that time, unless you wanted to ride your horse out in the paved stable yard. Second show, we called the morning of and were told to arrive at 9:30 for schooling. We arrive, only to find our division already in progress. We didn't even unload the horses, just turned around and left. Third show, we ended up getting there on time for the schooling break, but then we had sit around on the horses for an hour, while they got cool, bored, and cranky, before we actually were allowed to compete. I'm not going to any more hunter shows. My horse requires a particular type of warmup to perform his best, and I can't possibly do it if I have no idea of how long I'm going to be sitting around between schooling and showing. I'm sticking with combined tests and eventing, when you know exactly when you need to bring your horse to his peak of warmup.

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                                        • OK.....this thread certainly HAS gotten a bit heated and such, but I too have learned from it amongst the warmth.

                                          A couple of things stand out:

                                          1. "Local schooling show" means many different things depending on one's OWN experience. I can tell you even around here, depending on WHERE the show is, it means different things. Some are known for being debut shows -- scared kids who simply NEED that coach teaching from the rail to get around -- and in that case,I'm sorry it IS appropriate to do so. Say all you want about "not showing until you're ready to show" but the reality is, a show is not schooling at home. It IS different, and the first times out can be terrifying. The security of coaching can help many riders, so at the very entry-level schooling shows, it helps.

                                          As you move up, you may see the schooling shows more for the horse than the rider. For these, concessions are often made with orders of go, etc. to accomodate schooling the horse. Again, though, the competitors or at least their trainers usually know which shows are what kind,and plan accordingly.

                                          2. Pre-Entries. For most schooling shows, there aren't any. Personally, that works for me. If I'm having a great day, I may toss in another class to get experience. If I'm having an awful day I may add or scratch depending on what will most help my horse. Those changes help make schooling shows places TO school, but they also play havoc with a timetable.

                                          3. Division timing. After a few shows, you DO get a sense of how long divisions take in your area and about when you might go. Yes, it can be off by hours if turnout is wildly high or the riders have falls. But you can get the sense, and the show staff will usually help you in planning when to tack up, warm up, etc. The big issue is if you want the chance to school in the show ring, then you're stuck all day with the 7:00 am schooling the only thing available. Which is one of the reasons I'm trying to move my horse to NOT need to school in the ring -- it means I can get up to 4 hours more sleep! BUT...this is his second year showing, we could not have done this off the bat.

                                          4. Style. Hunter rounds are judged not just on getting over teh jumps but on looking great doing so. They are beauty pageants. It's what I both love and loathe -- I love the idea of working toward elegant, effortless rounds; I loathe the fact that what constitutes such a round is necessarily subjective. But keeping in mind that goal, it DOES make a difference if you have to keep tacking and prepping your horse -- even if "prep" just means a quiet canter. The hunters I know -- including my own guy -- KNOW what showing is about. They know when they go into that ring by themselves it's time to turn it on. My horse likes to warm up, then snooze a moment, and then step into the ring and instantly become animated and interested. If he was then taken back to the trailer, untacked, and given a break not just between divisions but between classes, he'd probably not understand it. That sense of being "on" is one reason that back to backs make sense -- if the horse is there, take advantage of it!

                                          5. Trainers' roles. Someone asked if the rider wasn't able to tell what went wrong with a round. Often.....no. The biggies, sure -- a missed lead, bad distance, etc. But the subtle stuff -- a knee not quite tight, a tiny bit of sight seeing so the neck isn't used to full advantage, all these things you can't -- at least as a weeinie adult amateur I can't -- tell. THAT is why we want our trainers there to help us. So we have someone who has seen our round and others and can help put it into context. In the hunter world, I think of trainers as the editors of the page -- you may find the story and write it, but the editor helps make sure it flows to the public and knows where it's going to appear in the paper.

                                          6. Judges comments. Personally, at a schooling show I LOVE judges comments. It's the only way to learn what someone unconnected with you thinks. I'm savvy enough to know it IS just one person's opinion, but if a judge is kind enough to comment, I think it can be helpful -- even if all you learn is that you don't want to show under that judge again. Heck, the last local circuit show I went to I suspect the judge overheard my ringside dithering concern about going in without having schooled for the first time, because he actually called out to me that I was *gasp* good before the hack started. I will totally treasure that comment, and it was really nice.

                                          So.....fwiw, those are just some of my thoughts to add to some very good and some, uh, interesting observations.

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