An eventer judges an open show and nearly causes a riot..UPDATE on page 2

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:
I guess the whole idea of riding "willy nilly" - whenever you decide to/want to/etc is a bit unnerving and annoying (when having to wait for others). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe it or not, once you get the hang of showing in h/j land, like madison said, there isn't a lot of waiting. You just have to know how to figure out the timing. We aren't like eventers and dressage, spoon feeding you your start times. You have to do some thinking and math to figure it out. See, it's very simple. We allow our trainers to think for us in the ring, and we have to think for ourselves outside the ring.

(Janet - that "not before 1" crap is and will always be unreliable for reasons that are closely related to why socks disappear in the dryer - Mystery of the Universe and all that. But the dynamic of the 2 minute round, checking numbers in the office the night before and putting your number in early with the ring steward is a fairly accurate science.)


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BTW, how does one make sure they can "peak" their horse's performance at just the right time when you don't really have a "time" per se on when you'll be in the ring since people are making you wait for them/their trainer, etc. (that is without holding it up yourself)??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, it's all about knowing your horse and knowing what he needs. But if you need to work on his jump a little bit more, there are usually 3 people warming up at once, and a good ring steward just bumps you down one. It's all about not leaving your best jump in the schooling area. Hunters are about the nth degree of perfection. Suck back at the first jump or roll over the shoulder at the in and out, and consider it a wasted trip in tough competition.

Second, once you know "the system" you know when to head up to the ring. At this point its a good idea to tell your trainer you will be ready to school in X minutes. It's also worth pointing out that if your trainer is not there at the designated time, it's probably because he has a horse ready to go in another ring that is deemed a priority, and that ring steward isn't letting him leave (ring stewards are dictators in their own right). And yes, more than a few ammies can figure out a course and ride it themselves, but even those who can do this find it rather challenging to warm up a horse when you are changing height, width, and vertical to oxer and maybe back to vertical every time you jump the fence.

But I'm sticking with the "tle did hunter points" in a former life!

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

[Liverpool]

Thank you and AMEN to dcm, Lord Helpus, DMK and the others who have pointed out, for the umpteenth time... that there is some method to the madness of a H/J show, and the eventers' (or other discipline's) way is not necessarily better.

There is indeed a science to figuring out when a given rider might expect to go in the ring, and it is ever so slightly flexible (as in you can move up or down a slot or two without the world coming to an end) to accommodate the needs of the riders in question. There are rules which - if enforced - can avoid rings being open and unoccupied, and this does not require either assigned ride times, nor a willingness to go in whether one is prepared or not.

Really ... if we agreed that the eventers' way was preferable... we'd have instituted it a long time ago.

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> (Janet - that "not before 1" crap is and will always be unreliable for reasons that are closely
related to why socks disappear in the dryer - Mystery of the Universe and all that. But the
dynamic of the 2 minute round, checking numbers in the office the night before and putting
your number in early with the ring steward is a fairly accurate science.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
DMK,

I was under the impression that we were talking about SCHOOLING SHOWS. The night before, nobody knows how many are in each division, as nobody has pre-enetered. Half an hour before the division starts, the estimate of the entries is likely to be off by a factor of 2.

I do REALLY badly in the heat. The last dressage schooling show I went to (with a set time) I collapsed as I left the ring. My husband had to untack and load the horses, and drive us home.
So when I am going to a (all ship in, no stabling) hunter/jumper schooling show, I try to minimize the amount of time I am out in the heat. It is hard to do. I find it personally very frustrating. But I recognize that is the way it is.

If you can figure out a way for me to redict what time my division will start at a one-day local schooling show with no pre-entries, I would be eternally grateful.


Yes, when I go to HITS Culpeper, I can get a pretty good estimate of what time my division will go (though I have seen a 10 horse jumper division take an hour and a half, which completely blows the "2 minutes per ride" estimate).

And Lord HelpUs, I am NOT trying to change Hunter/Jumper shows. I am not even complaining. The time unpredictability is a tradeoff for being able to wait until the day of the show to see if the horse is sound, you are healthy, or even the weather is nice. With a dresage show or an event, if you decide at the last minute (or any time after the closing date) not to go, you lose your entry.

First - I was simply responding to "that would be nice", which seemed to imply it was impossible. It isn't impossible- it just requires a DIFFERENT set of compromises.

Second - I was responding to posts that seemed to say you could predict what time you would ride at a LOCAL SCHOOLING SHOW. If there is a way of predicting, I would dearly love to know. But absent that- It "just ain't so". That is what I am trying to say. Not that it is WRONG that "it aint so", just that "it aint so".

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Heinz 57]

I haven't participated in this thread for a number of reasons... but, I do have a question:

So some of you are REALLY telling us that you would rather not know exactly what time you are riding for each round/class/etc. ? I'm not being discipline-specific here in saying how things would be scheduled. For those of you that persist in saying that "we get tired of hearing that eventing's way is sooo much better" or preferable or whatever you'd like to say:

Are you unaware of the dressage people here that are saying this is the way things run at their shows too? If I remember right there is or was a rule that says at a recognized dressage show, you cannot be forced to ride earlier than your time(or x amount of minutes before your time, or something similar).

So you honestly would rather not know what time you ride?
Just an honest question. I like it that way whether I'm at an event or a dressage show, because then I can plot out at about what time I want to start tacking up, how long I want to give myself to warmup and fix any last minute glitches, etc., and how much time in between rides I'll have to eat, give horsie a rest, feed, etc.

All I can say is that my horses like schedules. Any kind of schedule.

on the warmup front, not to poke a stick at a dead animal, but if us high and mighty eventers can get our horses out multiple times and warmup O/F multiple times, then it probably won't kill anyone. Not even the green horses who get cranky.
FlightCheck, I'd say you were accurate in naming your thread- just in a different context. You've certainly caused a riot on here!

* Proud girlfriend of USAF Private 1st Class Grasley*
See the Ring:
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[MHM]

100%.

Another advantage to the back to back system is that you only warm up the horse once for each division, or even for two divisions if they run together. (Lows and pre-greens, for example.) You don't waste the horse's legs jumping 10 or more extra jumps in the schooling area before each class. If a horse only has a finite number of jumps in him, why waste them?

Horsemanship? Hello?

[o2binca]

Originally posted by DMK:

We aren't like eventers and dressage, spoon feeding you your start times.
_______________________________________________




I was sort of confused by the original post on this thread and I think it's because events and HJ shows are such different animals, as are rated HJ shows and the beginner ring at a local HJ show. BTW I always thought a HJ "Open Show" was a show/part of the show where there were no jr. classes, though its been a few years so times could have changed.

I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement in each discipline, but why impose the rules or ideas from on to the other when the differences are as great as:

- A horse jumping in a total of 2 classes at an event (one or more days) vs. a horse jumping in at least 4 classes (at a one day show) or 4-12 classes (or more at a multi-day show).
- Three (or fewer) venues going at once at an event vs. 3-10 rings (each with many more classes) at a big A show.
- A discipline where 2 out of 3 classes are judged objectively vs. one where 100% of the classes are judged subjectively.

Back to back classes, changing the striding when the fence height changes, not going in order of the competitor's number, etc. just makes sense for most HJ shows and for what HJ riders are trying to achieve.

While I am all for improving the way things are done, I think that there are logical reasons for the way the different disciplines/levels have evolved and it doesn't serve anyone to impose one upon the other and WAY too simplistic to think that one way would or should fit all scenarios.

[Liverpool]

Heinz, to answer your questions - and speaking for myself only, no, I do not prefer to have a designated ride time. I have been doing hunters and jumpers long enough to have a good idea of what time my DIVISION will go - based on a check with the ingate of the divisions preceeding mine - and I prefer to go in when my horse is ready. I am usually one of the first few to go, as I start warming up as the hack class immediately preceding my division is working, and I like having either a minute or two to catch my breath, or the option of taking an extra jump or two to make sure that my horse (and my eye) is tuned in the way I want it. FWIW, I rarely jump more than four warm up jumps, and often fewer - but it's nice to have the option. Hunter rounds are different than stadium rounds, and style counts. That is why there is an objection to creating a cranky horse. Stadium jumping requires a certain level of obedience, but there are no points off for a wringing tail, a tense approach, an inverted jump etc - as long as you are clear. Any of those manifestations of crankiness will lose you a hunter class. The idea, as someone else pointed out, is not just to survive ("without killing anyone") it is to do well.

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

[dogchushu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So some of you are REALLY telling us that you would rather not know exactly what time you are riding for each round/class/etc. ? I'm not being discipline-specific here in saying how things would be scheduled. For those of you that persist in saying that "we get tired of hearing that eventing's way is sooo much better" or preferable or whatever you'd like to say:

Are you unaware of the dressage people here that are saying this is the way things run at their shows too? If I remember right there is or was a rule that says at a recognized dressage show, you cannot be forced to ride earlier than your time(or x amount of minutes before your time, or something similar).

So you honestly would rather not know what time you ride?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If knowing what exact time you ride means giving up the flexibility to

* move yourself up/down in the order as neccessary to get your horse properly warmed up,
* have your trainer available for warm ups when she's juggling multiple riders and/or rings, and
* add or drop classes throughout the day depending on how things are going

then, for me personally, I wouldn't want to know what time my horse goes.

Why have that flexibility? Others have said it better than I can, but here's my take on it...

If your horse isn't jumping his best (meaning in great, stylish form--not just getting over the fences), you go to the warm up ring and fix it. That may mean dropping back a few places in the line up.

Or, your trainer has all the best intentions of finishing up with their student in the other ring then helping you warm up. You schedule accordingly. But the other ring gets held up because of a fall that delayed the rounds there. So, again, you drop back a few places.

Heck, yesterday a horse threw a shoe in the warm up. It was nice that the rider could drop down in the line up and get the shoe fixed and still do her classes. She'd paid to be there. Why make her scratch her classes or go in with a horse missing a shoe? It didn't delay the show at all. It just changed the exact time she went into the ring.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> on the warmup front, not to poke a stick at a dead animal, but if us high and mighty eventers can get our horses out multiple times and warmup O/F multiple times, then it probably won't kill anyone. Not even the green horses who get cranky <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As said before, it's not that hunter riders can't handle horses who are cranky. It's just that your horse has to be at his very best in the hunter ring--and that means fussiness on course can hurt you! Not because riders can't handle a horse that bucks or tosses his head, but because judges don't give you macho points for showing how well you can handle a ornery steed!

Yes, we have to deal with cranky horses--my trainer's latest mantra is "dogchushu--no more excuses, unless you're unconcious or your horse is lame, you will ride through this!"

But most prefer to work on riding cranky horses at home. Why not be your best in the show ring? You've paid a small fortune to be there!

[Tucked_Away]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MHM:
You don't waste the horse's legs jumping 10 or more extra jumps in the schooling area before each class. If a horse only has a finite number of jumps in him, why waste them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not just...not jump ten or more jumps before every class? Warm up before the first class, then show. Maybe a jump or two before later classes to get back in that over-fences frame of mind, but...why would you need ten-plus jumps before every class?

re: the cranky horse thing. I can certainly ride cranky horses, including my own. But I prefer for both of us to be enjoying the ride -- I'd much rather not have him get cranky in the first place.

[hedgehog]

Look. The Hunters are exactly the way Hunter riders want them to be. The discipline has evolved away from its origins to what we see today and the people involved in it like it that way. More power to them. I tried the hunters years ago and quit in the middle of a show. I couldn't stand the waiting around or the way trainers had so much influence. Quite frankly I think it is horrible for anyone attempting to watch it or support a friend. I was never going to change the way it worked so I moved on.

Eventers will tell you that they are all scheduled and they are. The problem with eventing is that even in a horse trial you can be there all day. I think the XC phase is the most exciting thing in english riding. However, I wouldn't want to spend all day waiting around just to do it. But eventers love it the way it is and that's fine. Its their discipline and they can run it the way they want.

Now dressage ... Nah, let's not go there.

At the end of the day, each displine is going to run the way it is going to draw the greatest number of attendees. There is not much anyone can do to change that.

[JinxyFish313]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So some of you are REALLY telling us that you would rather not know exactly what time you are riding for each round/class/etc. ? I'm not being discipline-specific here in saying how things would be scheduled. For those of you that persist in saying that "we get tired of hearing that eventing's way is sooo much better" or preferable or whatever you'd like to say:

Are you unaware of the dressage people here that are saying this is the way things run at their shows too? If I remember right there is or was a rule that says at a recognized dressage show, you cannot be forced to ride earlier than your time(or x amount of minutes before your time, or something similar).

So you honestly would rather not know what time you ride?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If knowing what exact time you ride means giving up the flexibility to

* move yourself up/down in the order as neccessary to get your horse properly warmed up,
* have your trainer available for warm ups when she's juggling multiple riders and/or rings, and
* add or drop classes throughout the day depending on how things are going

then, for me personally, I wouldn't want to know what time my horse goes.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yup yup, exactly, well said

oh and lets not forget- this all applies to jumpers and equitation as well (for me anyway)

'Saanb ke rakh ni ey jovan butri
Hun mur ke na aauni bahaar' -punjabi mc

[Tin]

First, ditto to DMK, Lord Helpus and DCM who added some wonderful points (and others I'm sure I haven't meantioned).

Second, and I know this is going to be taken wrong but if your an eventer you have no right to try and change the hunter rules, just as we have no right trying to change dressage or eventing or TB racing. Each disipline has certain rules/ways what ever you want to call them for a reason and there's a reason why they evolved like this.

For a schooling show where the whippers/stewards have no clue what they are doing these rules are acceptable, for a bigger show you'd be sent out the crapper. And I understand that this wasn't meant for a bigger shows but I don't thinka lot of people are getting why these aren't adaptable.

Also I'm just going to add a defination of what back to back rounds means, there seems to be some conflicts in the defination from reading through this thread.

Back to back round in a 2 o/f division:
Horse A goes in and does round #1
Horse B goes in and does round #1
Horse A goes back in for round #2
Horse B goes back in for round #2

Voila~

~ Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once ~

[DMK]

Janet, I didn't get the impression we were restricted to only discussing schooling shows, but apparently it is all in how you pick your schooling/unrated shows. At the very least I expect to be able to pick up the numbers first thing in the morning, and I generally stable the horse overnight (the primary reason I would do a schooling show is to get the show horse experience for a greenie on the cheap, and the whole away from home experience is part of that experience).

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

[Janet]

I do not know of ANY schooling show around here that provides stabling.

Yes, if I were stabling, my priorities would be very differnent.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heinz 57:
on the warmup front, not to poke a stick at a dead animal, but if us high and mighty eventers can get our horses out multiple times and warmup O/F multiple times, then it probably won't kill anyone. Not even the green horses who get cranky. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now not to beat another dead horse, but you are aware we frequently do have to get our horses out two times a day and warm them up, right? I mean we have been known to ride in two divisions, or have a warm up that does not run back to back with our primary division, but for the love of pete, please explain to me why should we do it more than necessary if the alternative makes it easier, faster and MORE EFFICIENT FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED?

&lt;WHACK, WHACK, WHACK! Stupid horse just won't get up!&gt;

Oh yea, we should do it the inefficient way so the eventers have one more thing to carry on about when discussing hunters. Fuel for the fire as it were.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

[DMK]

I thought Lexington VA did stabling for their unrated shows?

Fortunately here in GA we have the opposite problem. At schooling shows the ship in fee is equal to or greater than the stabling fee (Wills park, anyway). Then we have PSJ which runs better than your average rated show. The trade off is we don't have anything between unrated and A, so that's a bit odd.

Still, even in SFL where we didn't have stabling at some one day schooling shows, you could still get decent numbers the night before and firm them up in the AM.

Call your village. Their idiot is missing...

[dogchushu]

I don't either Janet. Even the larger local associaton shows don't provide stabling.

Maybe Swan Lake in PA does for their schooling series, but I'm not sure. All I know is I saw tents up at their last schooling show. But I have no idea if they're permanent.

Most small schooling shows that have baby beginner classes (which I think may be the one FlightCheck was describing) don't even do entries before that morning. Sometimes it's a horse show mom who gets drafted into that duty! Sometimes with interesting results (like the time I was entered into a 3'3" division--noooooo, not for me thanks!)

Like DMK, I thought we'd moved on to discussing how hunter shows in general ran. I agree sometimes it can be a big pain at schooling shows that you think will be lightly attended and maybe there will be 10 riders in the early division only to find there will be 34 and you end up waiting all day. But, honestly, if they don't know how many entries they'll have until that morning, it can be hard for them to give a good estimate. At the small schooling shows I've attended, it hasn't been empty rings or trainer conflicts that have caused delays--it's just more entries than they forecast.

They could always cut off entries the night before or charge a "late entry" fee for that morning. But one of the nice things about schooling shows is that you can decide that very morning whether you really want to go or not. So stopping those last minute decisions would really cut down on their attendance.

[Janet]

And I should point out that there are a lot of things I don't like about events either- in particular forfeiting my (expensive) entry fee if
I am sick
My horse is lame
or
The event has to cancel because of weather, etc.

But I DO think that knowing (approximately) what time a division (not necessarily individual riders) will go would make it much more attractive to me.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[subk]

I've been trying to keep my mouth shut and probably still should...

Lord Helpus you've made the charge of "hunter bashing" in these later posts and I just have to bring up your comments at the beginning of the thread. You suggested that Flightcheck probably doesn't know the details of designing courses because "most event riders don't take into consideration things like a sloping ring." (to paraphase) Well, considering more of our rounds are on natural terrain as oppose to manicured all weather surfaces I think the average event rider can ride rings around that comment. So, before you start pointing that bashing finger...

Secondly, what I find so amazing is that of the several A circuit hunter riders I know, I asked three of them what they dislike the most about showing. Completely unpromted they gave me the SAME answer. Waiting around during ring delays. Now, three people is a small sample, but do you really think that a significant number of humter riders are HAPPY about the trainer delays?

I have to disagree with a poster that said this was they way hunter riders want things. I don't think it is. It's the way hunter trainers want things, you guys once again display (and while it might be just and illusion...) being lead around by a nose ring.

You know, all Flightcheck posted was that running a show for the convience of the trainers is not the only way to run a show. Have an open mind and stop acting like you're feeling threaten.

So with my flame suit securely in place as well as a warning that I spent 2 summer grooming on the A circuit so I have just a bit of understanding of what I speak...

[Heinz 57]

*Heinz thumps head with big club, telling self to not mention how some of the hunters who complain about hunter bashing are eventer-bashing* I'm not sure where along the line someone decided that the goal of stadium in eventing was to just get around, and no one really cares how their horse goes as long as its a clear round. Maybe its just my barn though. If you can't go around a course with an even pace, meet the jumps in stride, and not be inverted, pissy, or tail-wringing, then you are not going to an event.

I've never ridden a horse who's jumping form could be schooled into stylistic perfection right there at a show. I always thought it took lots of gymnastics and exercises to make a horse without perfect form, have that perfect form, unless its natural form, in which case then it would already be there and it wouldn't need to be schooled...right? hmm. Maybe someone could describe to me what this is like, because the only horses I've ridden whos form weren't up to par were greenies their first handful of times jumping. The other bobbles are usually rider error.


In my case, I do pay my trainer for helping me warmup at shows, but I also can comprehend the fact that I am not going to be her focal point the entire time. I can warmup without her if need be, and I come out just fine. I can even go to shows without her and finish well(2nd place by 0.7, last time). She is usually also riding and trying to warm up, sometimes with people falling off at jumps and being taken away in ambulances 5 strides in front of her on an approach to a warmup fence.

For years I rode and showed dressage, hunters (schooling shows), and eventing on what was each show's CRANKIEST horse. At an event, walking to the dressage ring, everyone kept their distance thanks to the squeaking, jigging-hopping beast. At a dressage show we got marked down because shoulder in at the canter was NOT part of the training level 4 test. Neither were flying changes. But, the beast also saved my butt a few times- lost my stirrups in an Eq class, which at the time sort of paralyzed my riding abilities(I focused on staying on and getting around the course), but the cranky monster got all his changes(and he's a non-auto, usually) and strides. He also refused a xc fence on me, putting us seriously out of the ribbons(though it didn't matter, our dressage wasn't good enough to get us better than 6th without refusing).

Back to the present- The point of that story was that with the cranky ones, its all in the warmup. Finesse. It can be done, with most horses.


So, be honest now. Whose horse REALLY lives in a plastic bubble? :P

* Proud girlfriend of USAF Private 1st Class Grasley*
See the Ring:
http://www.snapfish.com/viewsharedph...803/l=16904050