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Hotblood x Coldblood = Warmblood?

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  • How 'bout lets forget the arguement over the original cross and where it came from.

    Let's just go on and say that any of you guys that want to start crossing "heavy pulling type" horses with lighter horses, and continue to cross over 100 or so years, thru evaluations and outcrossing with different breeds to constantly improve the horse toward the top riding horse goals, documenting your progress along the way, can go ahead at that point and begin to call them "Warmbloods".

    I would begin taking some "anti-aging" stuff now if I were you

    Darlyn
    http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

    Are We Having Fun Yet?

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bits and Pieces:
      CW,

      In what capacity do you work with the KWPN ?

      Yours in sport,

      Lynn

      Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      In the capacity that we work with them. 98% of our horses are KWPN. All of our stallions are KWPN registered and AES approved. If we breed a mare to a stallion on the Continent, we use KWPN approved stallions. We have questions, they have answers which are always quick and to the point. Our UK yard is also helping to start a UK/WPN with the immense help and guidance of the KWPN. How else would we work with them?

      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Two Toofs:
      quote:
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Originally posted by Celtic Witch:
      Irish Draughts are working types but an Irish breeder would not appreciate their being called a draft horse!
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      In other words, don't call their draught a draft?
      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Pretty much. Very confusing when I went over to Ireland to try some ISH's and made the enormous mistake of calling them Draft crosses. I have never seen an Irishman start to resemble a beet so quickly! I learned very fast that an Irish Draught was a very old breed, but not to be likened to a Clydesdale et al. And they really do bare no resemblence, but I thought that since they had Draught in their name...
      Royal Oak Sporthorses
      Dutch Warmbloods & British Sporthorses.

      Comment


      • Well, if you want to be really accurate, of course they were all bred from the same stock, in that all horses are descendants of eohippus.

        The real question is what happened when man began interferring, when breeding records began to be kept, and when particular goals in breeding began to be sought after. How did the "breeds" come to be? Once you get past Prezswalski's Horse, virtually every breed of horse came to be because man interferred. Man put together horses that he thought would produce another horse that would be better for doing whatever it was the man wanted the horse to do -- Nature and evolution created horses and types of horses suited to particular environments, Man created breeds.

        By the time Europeans began breeding the horses that became known as warmbloods, there were draft horse breeds, there were carriage horse breeds, and there were riding and racing breeds, and there were lots of horses that were crosses between them or no breed at all. The bottom line is that those European breeders did not use draft horse stock -- Clydes, Percherons, etc. -- in their organized breeding programs to try to achieve the horse that could pull a cart or caisson, gallop with a rider, stay sound doing it, and look good on Sunday, which was the original purpose of the warmblood horse. They used carriage breeds, non-draft heavier farm horses, TBs, and foreign exotics like Andalusians, Lusitanos, and Arabs.

        Don't forget that those draft horse breeders -- meaning breeders of pure drafts like Clydesdales, Percherons, etc. -- were and are just as proud of their horses and consider them every bit as valuable for their purpose as any other breeders of high quality horses. The family of a very kind retired partner in our firm used to breed Percherons, and he gave me an original pedigree from a mare his grandfather bred back in the early 1920's -- it's at least a six generation pedigree, beautifully done with gorgeous gold lettering and embossing. You can see the pride these breeders had in their horses and the care they took in their breeding was every bit as great as that of any TB breeder or Hannoverian breeder. So to call any heavy farm horse a draft breed is somewhat insulting to them.

        So, is the European warmblood horse a cross between a "cold blood" draft breed and a "hot blood" light horse breed? No, it is not, historically or currently. You cannot cross a true draft horse (Percheron, Belgian Draft, Clydesdale, etc.) with a hot blood (TB, Arab, or Anglo-Arab) and get a Warmblood. You get a draft cross, which may well be a lovely horse, but it won't be a warmblood.

        Which doesn't mean -- as many warmblood breeders and enthusiasts happily admit -- that the modern warmblood is anything other than a mutt -- a really, really well-bred mutt.

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Who figures an immigrant's going to have a pony? ... Why would anybody come here if they had a pony? Who leaves a country packed with ponies to come to a non-pony country? It doesn't make sense... am I wrong?" Jerry Seinfeld

        [This message was edited by Portia on Nov. 09, 2003 at 03:09 PM.]
        "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry

        Comment


        • I hate to add another aspect to this ...debate... but I'm sick today and feeling grouchy so hear goes.

          Do we have any indication that the breeds we (Americans)call drafts looked the same 200 years ago? Perhaps the Percheron of 150 years ago looked more like the Irish Draught of today? We in the US have a tendency to make "show ponies" of all kinds of beasts. If you need proof look at show Poodles and show hunters (sorry, had to say it) and Shetland Ponies. There is the tendency to fixate on a feature and overdo it. Thus the enormous neck, thick leg feathers and overall massive size we know may be an American creation.
          If anyone knows a bit about the history of draft breeding in the US feel free to educate me. This is just a theory. What do I know know about any thing but thoroughbreds????? Not much. Besides, as I said, I'm cranky today.

          Resident racing historian
          Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique
          F O.B
          Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
          Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

          Comment


          • Well, if you want to see what the horses out of the old type warmblood lines looked like, go to the Del Mar site http://www.pedigreequery.com/allbreed/ and type in for example Monarch, Favoriet (Gelderlander) or Wokina or Garma A, and then click on "photos" at the bottom of the pedigree, and then some photos will pop up

            Comment


            • Hey Garma A is Nevada's Great Great Grandmother!

              Darlyn
              http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

              Are We Having Fun Yet?

              Comment


              • Linny, the pedigree querry site is lovely for TBs, but so far, they don't have good info. on other breeds.

                I've found the IMH/Kentucky Horse park site has more general historical data on all breeds. There's a special exhibit/feature on the development of draft horses. The link is www.imh.org/imh/draft/dr1.html

                The article references the Black Horse of Flanders (which is the "Great Horse" which I have referenced in earlier posts as the predecessor of the European Warmbloods (and also the modern drafts).

                There is also a general history of the horse, including changes through history, from approx. 600 a.d. forward. It's quite informative on the development of many of the modern types (note I did not say BREEDS). The link for this is at http://www.imh.org/imh/exh1.html then click on the Middle Ages.

                The other day, I also found information from some historians on the destrier (great horse) of the knights. I cannot seem to re-locate the site tonight, however. It gave a description of the horse as lighter than modern drafts, which I suspect, as you alluded to in your post, were bred from the earlier draft stock to be larger and larger for use as pulling animals. Whether you agree or not, it's fascinating reading.

                [This message was edited by jjsmom on Nov. 10, 2003 at 05:14 AM.]

                Comment


                • So what are these?

                  http://www.americanasporthorse.com/ASRhome.htm

                  Hot, cold, luke, tepid???

                  Stupid people bug me
                  That would be backwards

                  Comment


                  • &lt;grabbing the bait&gt;

                    "So what are these?

                    http://www.americanasporthorse.com/ASRhome.htm"

                    Saddlebred crosses.

                    Yours in sport,

                    Lynn

                    Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique


                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
                    Suerte Hostage Crisis Survivor
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    Comment


                    • So I have a Han/TB cross, registered CSHA.

                      That makes him a Canadian warmblood Cross...



                      Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.


                      http://groups.msn.com/WolfdenFarm/shoebox.msnw
                      I gotta do-over and am doin it my way!!!

                      Comment


                      • Jester, those are warmbloods, because they are going to the Olympics! Hasn't any of the rhetoric sunk in yet?

                        I'm an alter, and I hate stupid people.

                        Comment


                        • Draft breeds in America are lighter than they were 200 years ago. The pergherons have gone from being warhorses, to agricultural pullers, to fancier, lighter coach horses, back toward the heavier ag type, and now the breed is moving more towards the riding/light coach horse type. The european percherons look radically different than american percherons. The european ones are more like the drafts of 200 years ago...heavier and shorter.

                          Comment


                          • What starts to be a problem is when people make homemade warmbloods by crossing drafts with hotter and lighter horses and getting something sporty - when you describe the horse to people you say 'well, he is sort of a warmblood" and then the problem comes - how do you describe a cross.

                            But I see the problem with the PMUs. I know the WB owners of the wellbred think it is just hysterical to call a Belgian QH a "warmblood".... but what do you call it? Some of those crosses are not all that drafty.

                            I remember in college my roommate brought one of Tad Coffin's horses to school and we rode him - he was a very nice (of course) near retirement eventer - and a Percheron/TB cross. Now this was a nice horse. But what is he? He fit in with the term 'warmblood.'

                            For instance, I work for the UPF and we have 400 plus PMUs. If you look at the before and after pictures on our website - there are some draft crosses that would not be embarressed competing against true Warmbloods. I just bought a 3 year old Appy/Tb/Perch cross and he is not drafty in the slightest. And he moves gorgeous. I have no idea what I can call him. I do not want to offend my dressage friends by calling him a Warmblood - here I have my $1500 PMU and they have their 40K plus Warmbloods. But he doesn't fit in anywhere else. If I call him a PMU - people imagine a drafty cross. And frankly, we have just as many smaller and lighter PMUs as we have drafty ones....

                            Maybe there should be a rule that you can only call a horse a Warmblood if he's registered with a Warmblood breed. And then have a catagory for Sporthorse types for all the rest - the halflings.

                            -Lara

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              Ah, we are back to semantics again.

                              LaraLeigh, if you have a gorgeous Appy/Tb/Perch cross that you are proud of, why don't you call him an Appy/Tb/Perch cross? I'm assuming he is a gelding (that is, not breeding stock) so what does it matter what "breed" he is? A lovely horse is a lovely horse.

                              I think the problem is the use of the word warmblood to signify a BREED when the correct term for the BREED should be "Holsteiner" or "Swedish Warmblood" - the registry.

                              And hey, what about the PONIES? What the heck are THEY?

                              "I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
                              -Louisa May Alcott
                              "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And hey, what about the PONIES? What the heck are THEY?
                                <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                Cute!

                                Friendship is Love without his wings
                                -Lord Byron
                                "If you would have only one day to live, you should spend at least half of it in the saddle."

                                Comment


                                • hitchinmygetalong, who knows!?

                                  I've got an adorabale Shetland (draft pony) crossed to a Chincoteague (Arab & barb descendant). Is he a small "w" warmblood ?

                                  Maybe I'll call him a mini-blood.

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Timothy Hay:
                                    Delighted - TB's can be registered as Danish Warmbloods if either the dam or the sire was a DWB as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bwahahahaha!

                                    Timmy, you always crack me up!

                                    SillyHorse
                                    ~ I'm probably on John Ashcroft's enemies list. At any rate, he's on mine. ~

                                    Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                                    Comment


                                    • I have a question which is kind of off topic but.....where on earth did the draughts come from? How did they get so big and bulky?

                                      The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde
                                      The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                                      Comment


                                      • Another question- is a Fresian considered a warmblood?
                                        \"It is good to be fine.\"

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          bigbay, if you want an interesting bunch of answers, post your question over in Sport Horse Breeding! Go look at the thread about "New Registry?" - very entertaining!

                                          "I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
                                          -Louisa May Alcott
                                          "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                                          Comment

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