Hotblood x Coldblood = Warmblood?

[Celtic Witch]

Nattie:

You said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think that technically, any horse from draft desent (sp??) is considered a warmblood. Because all horses that are usually considered "warmbloods" have drafts as their ancestors, and they have, over decades, evolved into "todays" warmblood/sport horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No. None of the European Warmbloods descended from draft stock. You might want to do a bit of research indepthly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oh yes they did Celtic!! Haven't you ever seen a picture of Werther?? Or any of the "old style" foundation Warmblood stallions in Germany?! They were origonally bred to war horses and plow horses. I did a hole research project on them last year... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How this justifies the Warmblood's descent from draft horses mystifies me, so I said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have several horses from Wether's line. He IS NOT a draft. Werther is slightly heavier type now considered the "old type" Warmblood, but he is not a draft of any sort.

European Warmbloods were never drafts; they were all around working horses and heavier a century ago, but they were not drafts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Celtic- I didn't say he IS a draft, I'm saying from a LONG LONG time ago, they were GERMAN drafts. For mares to get a premium status, they had to pull a certain weight for a certain distance, there was no riding or jumping involved.

Maybe YOU should talk to the people over on Sport Horse Breeding. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Followed by:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> DIDN'T SAY THEY RESEMBLE TODAYS DRAFT HORSES. I'm saying: They decended from an old form of European Draft horses. Over CENTURIES they have evolved into sporthorses through the addition of French Thoroughbred blood. I'll even find it on the Hanoverian Verband Website... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I, and several others, are telling you that you are not correct.

Nowhere on the Hanoverian pages does it state that modern Hanoverians were brought about by crossing Thoroughbreds to DRAFTs as you state. As I, Medievalist, and Master Tally have said(and as all the other breeders on the SHB forum will); the modern Warmblood was brought about by crossing mainly Thoroughbreds and Arabians on the existing WORKING stock, which were not drafts. This all around working stock were not draft horses.

If you do not believe me, feel free to email any director of a Studbook to find out for yourself. I personally work with the KWPN and AES and would be more than happy to point you in the right direction.

If you would like to continue this discussion, please PT me as I am sure everyone else has heard this at least 64,000 times.

Susie

[2487lyf]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nattie:
they were GERMAN drafts<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Did you miss this part?? or this part: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I DIDN'T SAY THEY RESEMBLE TODAYS DRAFT HORSES. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am positive I am right. I didn't do a year's worth of research for no reason.

~*~Nattie~*~
*Maryland Clique*
*Non-GPA Clique!*
*Warmblood (Hanoverian) Clique*

[Kitti's Karisma]

I think threads on the whole warmblood issue should be banned...or they should get their own forum!! LOL..So much controversy..

= Sarah and Kitti =
You know you're a horse person when...You find yourself banking the litter in the cat box...Preventing poop cast?
www.expage.com/northernva
http://community.webshots.com/user/huntergirly

[Medievalist]

Is an ISH considered a warmblood? That is, is an Irish Draft a real draft or a coach type horse? I'd guess coach type, but I honestly don't know. I'm being serious. I've really been been wondering...

I *think* I am actually getting somewhere on these applications...but then again I may be lying to myself.
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye

[wanderlust]

Medievalist, I believe Irish Draughts are "working horses", not actually drafts. And I don't think Irish sporthorses (RIDxIrish TB) are not considered warmbloods by the Europeans.

[This message was edited by Master Tally on Nov. 08, 2003 at 09:55 PM.]

[Medievalist]

Oh ok thanks

Didi didn't want to be a stinkin' warmblood anyhow And I will never call him one either

I *think* I am actually getting somewhere on these applications...but then again I may be lying to myself.
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye

[wanderlust]

Well, I'm not actually a self-described expert on these things, so you may want to confirm with someone who is. But I don't blame Didi for not wanting to be a warmblood. Most of the ones I have dealt with are primadonnas.

[Lord Helpus]

I don;t see why everyone cannot agree --- it appears that German warmbloods were derived from heavy horses used in agriculture.

Whether they were (300 years ago) or are (now) called "Draft" horses is splitting hairs.

You all are getting into a dither over semantics. One person's draft horse is another person's heavy work horse.

THERE! Now you are both right. Don't you all feel better???

[Celtic Witch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
I don;t see why everyone cannot agree --- it appears that German warmbloods were derived from heavy horses used in agriculture.

Whether they were (300 years ago) or are (now) called "Draft" horses is splitting hairs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite. Just as the Cleveland Bay and a Shire are two vastly different horses, a Draft (Percheron, Shire, Clyde, whichever you choose) is vastly different from the old Hanoverians etc. The old type Warmbloods were more reminiscent of a Cleveland Bay than anything else. No European Warmblood studbook refers to the old types as drafts anywhere, which was the original point; that Percheron x TB does not equal a Warmblood and justifying that claim by saying that all Euro Warmbloods originated from Draft stock is not correct.

Is this beating a dead horse? For most of us, definitely! But as long as people continue to make ignorant assumptions, I think those of us who attempt to make a living from breeding have a right to attempt to educate people. If you disagree, read this thread and you will see that I am not alone.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/f...m=83660667&p=1

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Master Tally:
Medievalist, I believe Irish Draughts are "working horses", not actually drafts. And I don't think Irish sporthorses (RIDxIrish TB) are not considered warmbloods by the Europeans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. Irish Draughts are working types but an Irish breeder would not appreciate their being called a draft horse! I would consider the Irish Sporthorses/Hunters and Draughts as Warmbloods but I am not sure which Continental registries allow them into their Studbooks. I know that as an EU recognised breed, the KWPN would allow offspring by or out of KWPN approved horses to be in the A or B Registries. I can't understand why they wouldn't Approve some of them (although they are heavier than the Dutch like right now) as you can't beat them for jumping prowess.

One of my favourite rides ever was on a friend's coloured ISH who carried my 7 months pregant self over a 5' show jumping course. Nearly gave my husband a stroke, but what fun!

Susie

[WhatzUp]

CW,

In what capacity do you work with the KWPN ?

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[SuperPony]

Just to ask a question...

People keep referring to the 'old' type warmbloods/heavy work horses/etc that 'today's warmbloods' are decended from. Back then (whenever 'then' was), what were the drafts called? Were ANY horses called drafts? Or were all heavy horses just called 'work horses' or something to that effect?

Just wondering, because if there has always been a set of really heavy horses (clydesdales, percherons, belgians, etc.) that were titled "drafts" or something more specific than "work horse" and NOT used as a foundation for today's "warmbloods", then no, there is no argument for a hotblood + a coldblood to be a warmblood.

But if, as I suspect, all heavy horses in the past were called something to the effect of "work horses" and some of those work horses were used to make "warmbloods", then there definitely is some reason in saying that a coldblood/hotblood cross is a warmblood.

Basically, what I'm trying to ask is if the horse breeders of the past differentiated between heavy work horses (today's "working types") and really heavy work horses (today's "drafts").

[Dragoon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SuperPony:
Just to ask a question...

People keep referring to the 'old' type warmbloods/heavy work horses/etc that 'today's warmbloods' are decended from. Back then (whenever 'then' was), what were the drafts called? Were ANY horses called drafts? Or were all heavy horses just called 'work horses' or something to that effect?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Income.

Me: "I'm going to get a Grand Prix horse and name it Funky Cold Medina."
Friend: "In the name of God why?"
Me: "Because then our entrance music could be 'Funky Cold Medina.'"
Friend: *sigh*
Me: "It's a GOOD song!"

[wanderlust]

Superpony- from my understanding, the horses closest to today's "draft" breeds were very expensive horses used to pull cannons and very heavy loads for the military. They were not kept as farm workhorses the way they are today. Rather, the farm workhorses and carriage horses were of a lighter type than the super-heavy drafts. Again, think of Irish Draughts and the like.

That said, I can't tell whether the breeders of the past differentiated between the two types, but again, it is my understanding that none of the very heavy drafts were used in the early breeding of European warmbloods.

I have the funny feeling I didn't answer your question...

[Jo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RodeoHunter:
Silly Jo! It's in the first post. "What you get when you cross a hot blood with a cold blood." The correct question (which no one got) was, "What is a warmblood?"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops! Sorry! Somehow I started reading this topic on page 2. Duh.

TODAY'S BLESSING: May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who screws up your day and may their arms be too short to scratch. AMEN

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celtic Witch:
Irish Draughts are working types but an Irish breeder would not appreciate their being called a draft horse!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, don't call their draught a draft?

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[jjsmom]

SuperPony,
To answer your question, as I understand it, the large, heavy draft horses of modern times are as much a modern invention as the modern european sportshorse. I cannot find any references in historical data to their existence. The heavy horse of the middle ages appears to have been significantly lighter, perhaps somewhere between the "heavier" original warmbloods (Spanish horses, Fresians, etc.) and the modern draft. Both animals were bred from the ancient smaller drafts. Now have I been able to find any specific reference to the weight measurements of these "draft" horses in the Medeival era? No, therefore I may be incorrect. I do know, however, that as far as "farm & field" work, oxen were certainly more commonly used than heavy draft horses.

Even to this date, the heavy drafts are not commonly used in 3rd world countries. Heiffer International attempts to place "working" and income producing animals, and they don't even have a category for sponsoring draft horses, or horses of any kind, for that matter. Horses are not as practical in farm use as oxen, they are more difficult and expensive to maintain in proper physical condition.

I think this whole disagreement can be boiled down to differing opinions in what constitutes objective historical research. It seems to me, and again, IMHO, the camp arguing that european warmbloods are not descended from drafts seem to be getting data from the various studbooks (which for various marketing purposes may or may not have an axe to grind), whereas the camp arguing for the draft cross descent of all warmbloods (myself included) are looking more at the general history of the horse, or at european history.

I guess, and again IMHO, I just don't feel that a studbook from a european warmbook registry would be considered "objective" evidence for these purposes. It's a little like looking at Ford's data on an F150. The brochure might be interesting, and it might be informative. But is it objective? Probably not. I'd rather get my data from a broader source with less bias -- Consumer Reports, etc.

Having said that, is anyone saying that the small "w" warmbloods arguably created out of the hotblood x coldblood cross would be the SAME as the older european crosses? I don't believe they are.

I do think we should all be able to agree that ALL warmbloods (europeans and otherwise) were the result of cross-breeding to refine the best elements of the draft breeds in existence at the time by infusing "hot" blood. This would be as true of the european warmbloods as it is for the good old American quarter horse.

Were the crosses done for international sporthorse competitions? I don't belive that can be accurately stated. These crosses were done at a time in history where there simply was no international competition, nor any idea of such a concept. People took months to travel by ship or horse power, and the mobility made possible by the industrial revolution, which later resulted in the freedom of movement required by international sports competitions, simply could not be forseen.

And finally, probably the earliest truly "international" competitions (again, limited to basically royalty due to the expense involved with mobility in that era) were undertaken in the sport of horse racing, so the earliest ideal of an international "sporthorse" would have to be considered the Arab or Thoroughbred, not the warmblood.

Having said that, LordHelpUs is correct, and this entire argument is really such a trivial matter of semantics, and I believe a total waste of time. Can't we all just agree that ALL horses, for thousands of years, have been specifically and selectively bred to improve the stock's temperment and physical characteristics by crossing hot and cold blooded breeds?

This "warmblood war" is not an argument that can be settled here, or anywhere, simply by calling either side "ignorant". There are valid arguments from varying sources to support both sides. Which side you support is merely a matter of opinion, and which references you find to be more appropriate.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Okay, so now my head has officially exploded from TOO MUCH INFORMATION!

I'm still freaked out that someone, somewhere out there in the realms of Internet-space, is labeling Morgans (and Appaloosas, for crying out loud) "warmbloods!"

I'm finding the debate a bit tedious at this point. Suffice it to say that some people have VERY strong opinions on this debate and will not be swayed from said opinions. I admire the thorough research some have done on the "warmblood issue" and have found this all to be very educational.

I'll just stick with my Morgans, thank you very much. I'll leave the warmbloods to the experts!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

[Sporthorse South]

Good comments here by many. Want to point out though that the word "draft" is a (mostly) Americanization of "draught". which is a Middle English word for "pulling" (probably descended from an Old Norse word -"drattr"). So in a pure sense, the word "draft" could be correctly applied to both the heavy horses that we normally consider to be "draft horses" (Shires, Belgians, Clydesdales,etc.), and to the utilitarian "work horses" used by the Germans, Dutch, Danes, etc., to found today's modern European Warmblood. Since the latter were used for riding as well as for pulling the family cart, pulling a plow, or pulling carriages, they were not as heavy and massive as the Shire or Clyde-type draft.

So not only was the foundation stock of the EWs different in body type from the heavy draft types, but they have been very carefully bred for many, many generations to produce today's modern EW. Crossing a heavy draft with a TB may make a "warmblood" in the world of semantics, but it does not make a "European-type warmblood" - which is what most horse people understand is a "warmblood." There is a vast difference between the two, and I think it can be misleading at the least for breeders and owners of draft / TB types to refer to their horses as "warmbloods" - what they really have are draft / TB crosses.

[jjsmom]

Sporthorse South, I think you've summed it up very well (and much more concisely than my attempt )

[Just My Style]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is a vast difference between the two, and I think it can be misleading at the least for breeders and owners of draft / TB types to refer to their horses as "warmbloods" - what they really have are draft / TB crosses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Darn it. So I really don't have a warmblood. Oh well. I just tell people that he is an overgrown Thelwell pony anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!