Originally posted by cu.at.x
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This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.
Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.
Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.
2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.
3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.
4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.
Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.
Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.
Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:
Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.
Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.
Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.
Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.
Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.
Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.
Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.
5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.
6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.
If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.
Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.
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The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.
8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.
Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.
Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!
(Revised 2/8/18)
Board Rules
1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.
This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.
Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.
Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.
2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.
3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.
4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.
Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.
Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.
Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:
Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.
Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.
Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.
Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.
Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.
Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.
Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.
5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.
6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.
If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.
Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.
7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.
8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.
Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.
Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!
(Revised 2/8/18)
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Horse Shock Collar
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I knew someone who used it (a dog one actually) on a horse who started lunging out and biting horses that walked by his stall; he also did it when in cross ties. It was a serious problem and was quickly cured. I think in situations like that when you are very careful it is areseanable thing to use.
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No, but you can find ways to alleviate boredom, which is the cause of cribbing. More turnout, exercise, etc. There are always good solutions. Shocking a horse for a human-created problem is not one in my book.Originally posted by saultgirl View PostYou can train away cribbing? Do tell!I saw the angel in the marble and I set him free. - Michaelangelo
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This is all false. That is not the cause of cribbing and quite frankly, some of us who own cribbers are a little tired of the attitude that if we just cared for our horses properly they would all stop cribbing.Originally posted by cu.at.x View PostNo, but you can find ways to alleviate boredom, which is the cause of cribbing. More turnout, exercise, etc. There are always good solutions. Shocking a horse for a human-created problem is not one in my book.
Ignorance in an age of easy access to information is inexcusable to bolster up a holier than thou attitude.
Let be be clear that this response is not just to your comment, but to today's many examples of such ignorance on the is BB in the 3 cribbing threads.
Try starting with a search on COTH and see how many fellow COTHrs did everything according to your suggestions and woke up one day with a cribber anyway. Its not our fault.
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I totally agree that there really seems to be no practical purpose for using a shock devise on a horse, aside from scaring the crap out of them. Horses and dogs are totally different creatures in many ways, and training methods are not universal.
One thing that I absolutely hate hate hate hearing about is people who think that a shock collar will keep their dog from running away, being aggressive, etc. Then they run out and get one, put it on the runaway dog, let said dog out, call them back while shocking the crap out of them and the dog still takes off. People do not understand that there is a training process that you MUST go through before you even use the collar. My family has trained and ran field trial retrievers for many years and a shock collar is an essential part of long distance training and response. However, there has to be a solid foundation which is fine-tuned with the collar. The collar does not in itself provide that foundation!!
Rant over...
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Nobody knows, but just by applying a little math you can start to see its not what they always told us it was and its not the new ideas either.Originally posted by cu.at.x View PostSo what IS the cause of cribbing then, since you know all the answers and I am so wrong?
Obviously all hoses with stalls or ulcers or lack of free choice hay or any of these other things do not crib. Roughly 5% of horses crib. If its environmental it has to be a pretty rare environment.
In the most recent COTH threads over the past 6 months there has been a strong leaning toward a genetic influence.
But just with the research that has already been done we know its not any of the easy answers and nobody can cure it. Not yet, so all we have is ignore it or use physical means to prevent it.
I once had a lady come up and tell me I must be a horrible horse person because ALL my horses cribbed. She then went on to tell me how I could easily stop them all for cribbing by turning them out and not being such a meanie. It was a herd of horses that did live out and had hay and were worked and were very happy. But it was a herd of research horses on cribbing!
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I hear you. A shock collar was an option for my beagle when she was rioting on deer. (she's a rabbit hound).Originally posted by SEFBH87 View Post
One thing that I absolutely hate hate hate hearing about is people who think that a shock collar will keep their dog from running away, being aggressive, etc. Then they run out and get one, put it on the runaway dog, let said dog out, call them back while shocking the crap out of them and the dog still takes off. People do not understand that there is a training process that you MUST go through before you even use the collar. My family has trained and ran field trial retrievers for many years and a shock collar is an essential part of long distance training and response. However, there has to be a solid foundation which is fine-tuned with the collar. The collar does not in itself provide that foundation!!
Rant over...
It can be an invaluable tool for a hunting dog. I guess any dog, really. But you just don't go around zapping the poor thing when it ticks you off. That's nothing but torture!
I've not seen them used on horses so really can't comment. Except to say that people with confirmed and expert cribbers have my sympathy and I don't blame them for trying collars and/or cribbing rings.
I wish this behavior was cured by turnout and happy thoughts but in my experience it usually isn't.Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
-Rudyard Kipling
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Many years, I tried the vice breaker on my young hano. I was boarding at the time and the BM was not happy about him pulling down fence boards on a regular basis. Collars did not work on him. Unless it was so tight that it cut into his skin, he would crib through them.
I sat in my car one day and hit the shock everytime he reached for the fence to crib. And I followed it up by hiding in the barn and hitting the shock when he was in his stall.
The only thing I accomplished was to create a horse who learned to hang his head...and become depressed. My normally happy young horse suddenly became very, very quiet and not himself. So I gave up on the vice breaker.
I still own 2 cribbers. But I have my own place so I leave them without a collar. No rubs or sore necks from the collars and it is not a big deal to hammer a fence board back up a few times a year when one gets pulled down.************
\"And indeed the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door , if their masters\' hearts were steady as they walked beside them.\" The Return of the Ki
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It's sure frustrating to be constantly told that turnout and free choice hay will stop cribbing. Mine certainly cribs less, but since he's been living outside 24/7 and always has hay, I can testify that it doesn't stop cribbing.
I would not use a shock collar on a horse. I have used one successfully on a dog (with help from a trainer). I had have lhasa apso mix that would 1) chase horses and 2) not come when called. I thought he was dumb. One mild shock with the collar when he was chasing a horse and that "dumb" dog was back in front of me, sitting at attention and asking me what to do next
. Not dumb at all. Just selectively hard of hearing. He gets a tune up about once a year and that keeps him safe for the rest of it.
Originally posted by equinelaw View PostThis is all false. That is not the cause of cribbing and quite frankly, some of us who own cribbers are a little tired of the attitude that if we just cared for our horses properly they would all stop cribbing.
Ignorance in an age of easy access to information is inexcusable to bolster up a holier than thou attitude.
Let be be clear that this response is not just to your comment, but to today's many examples of such ignorance on the is BB in the 3 cribbing threads.
Try starting with a search on COTH and see how many fellow COTHrs did everything according to your suggestions and woke up one day with a cribber anyway. Its not our fault.Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.
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I'm glad to hear that the shock collar can help with horse aggression in dogs. I have a rescued aussie that I have spent the time training. He usually comes when he is called but every so often he just decides he doesn't have to and off he goes on his own walk. He is also horse aggressive. When the weather clears, the trainer is going to come and help me with both of these issues. (Shea is perfect when we are at the trainer's working on obedience.) I suspect that a shock collar will be necessary to get the dog's attention. (We do use a radio collar to keep him in the yard, and he is very respectful of his boundaries, so hopefully the shock collar will help with these other issues.)
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dog trainers prefer the term "remote collars", not shock collars, because the dogs aren't painfully shocked using modern training methods. Used in modern methods of training remote collars are used in the last step of off-leash training, for final "proofing" of the behaviors that the dog has been carefully and slowly taught using other methods. The dogs are NOT painfully shocked for failure to obey; they are given low-level electrical stimulation (which feels like an irritating tickle, not the severe pain most people imagine) as negative reinforcement for obeying (which means the aversive, the electric tickle, is turned off when the dog chooses to obey). The only appropriate and effective use of painful shocks for dog training is aversion training, which can be tricky and have adverse effects. If, for example, you NEVER want your dog to do behavior X, such as chase horses, you shock the hell out of him every time he chases horses over a relatively short, intense training period. It might work. Often however you get dogs who suffer mental breakdowns, exhibit re-directed aggression to by-standers or nearby dogs, exhibit fearful aggression towards horses (clearly THEY caused the pain), or exhibit severe aversion to horses, as in, bolt in terror whenever a horse comes within five miles of the dog. So consult a professional first or skip altogether. Invisible fences work much as standard remote collar training does- the dog is first taught to back away from the property line, and then the collar is employed as negative reinforcement to "reward" (by ceasing to shock) the dog for backing away from the property line. As with any training, it only works if you put the time and effort in and follow all the foundation steps. If you just slap the collar on the dog without doing the training first you may find your dog off your property pretty quickly. No-bark-collars work the same way- negative reinforcement, namely, if the dog stops barking, the dog is "rewarded" by ceasing the shock. I assume no-crib-collars should work the same way but have design flaws in them these days? I would think it would work if they could get the collar to work properly. I can't imagine aversion training would be a good idea with a horse, they tend to panic and then stop learning in the face of something that severe. You could do remote collar training with a horse, I guess, but most of us tend to be in close contact with horses when working them so why bother?
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