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Parelli on RFD-TV

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  • I also think what creates the Parelli "problem children" is the beginners/novices that go to a demonstration or watch the tape and read the books and think they have it. Unless you have alot of general horse experience you need to work with a good PNH-type instructor to learn really how to apply what you seen the tapes and books and demos.

    It is so hard to teach the awareness of what your horse is doing and offering when you don't have experience. If you don't have the experience and you don't have someone helping you, learning how to release pressure properly and quickly (for example) is almost impossible to explain in a book. PNH or not, the request should be clear and consistent and the reward immediate. When you don't know how to do that or what you're doing wrong and what you should be doing to improve, you will end up with what appears to be an unhappy, untrained horse.

    That maybe one fault with alot of the PNH marketing is that you are convinced if you buy the doo-dads and you'll have a wonderful horse. I don't know that they push enough that this isn't to be attempted at home without supervision by a novice that doesn't have lots of horse experience to fall back on.
    You can't connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something… S. Jobs

    Comment


    • Being an "anti-anything that remotely has to do with Parelli", I've ignored this topic until I just realized that there were seven pages of posts. On the COTH boards, that only means one thing...things are getting juicy . So I've read the first and the last page and will probably repeat what 100 other people have said(sorry)
      As a trainer, I DREAD getting anything that has been exposed to Parelli, John Lyons, people that "whisper", these horses need to be completely reprogrammed. They have "0" respect for your space , are confused, and some tend to become dangerous when confronted (these are my personal experiences, maybe somewhere on earth some don't apply). How do people "make-up" their own training techniques and then try to convince begining horse owners that this is a legitamate way of training a horse? People wake up, what the F&^^%#@#&^& is a carrot stick???? This woman shows up at my farm one day and is literally chasing her horse around with this thing The horse is now dragging this woman to the ground for 20 minutes ...Lady, put a chain over his nose and SHANK the bastard , he might just stand still and not put you in the hospital, or better yet, he might turn into a horse that respects his owner , that can be trained and will live with you for forever! Imagine that. Bottom line, I think people get into horses not fully expecting the COST. They save a little money by buying the green horse. They realize that the horse does need some training and figure that they will rent/buy the videos and do it themselves. How hard could it be, we can learn together and save some money. Horse trainers do not develope their skills by watching a video and working with the same horse everyday. It takes YEARS of riding, handleing, showing, watching , reading and just all around doing. That's the road of a horse trainer. Do they have to be open minded about different techniques?? YOU BET! But they need to know when to say ,what might be working for this horse might not even be close to what works for another. That is training.

      OK off my soapbox
      Corner Stone Farm
      Weeki Wachee,FL .Follow us on FB!

      Comment


      • gray17htb,
        It's too bad you didn't read the pages in between, it's been a pretty great conversation with virtually no mudslinging.
        Life is short, do it now. www.dleestudio.com
        OTTB's
        My CANTER cutie, Steely Dan - IL
        My Exceller cutie, Ace (aka FiftyThreeCards)- NY

        Comment


        • Ally and LMH,

          It may seem otherwise, but I don't want to pick on Parelli. During the Level 2 clinic I observed, there was only one beginner rider. The lady I went with does centered riding, dressage, a little eventing, and teaches riding lessons. There was a long-time fox hunter there with an 18hh horse that scares her when she isn't mounted. There was also an endurance rider that has the most awesome seat I've seen in a long time.

          The tailbone thing was said by the instructor. Centered Riding teaches us to sit between the seatbones and the tailbone, which sort of forms a tripod. These riders, including the instructor, were rocked further back than that. The instructor said they should be resting on their balance point without leg pressure. This is so contrary to what I learned during centered riding that I couldn't even process it. And without exception, every horse cantered around with pinned ears. I've been around horses enough to know the difference between discomfort and concentration.

          So, what I wondered is why they are not taught to listen to how the horse feels to get the right seat. Shouldn't we look for relaxation instead of trying to rock back to a certain point? I learned during Centered Riding lessons that the horse reflects any of my tensions and/or imbalances, and that I could read the horse to know whether I was in a good position. I didn't state it well, but I constantly look for feedback from the horse. Nobody was encouraged to do this during the riding portion of the clinic.

          And I'm sorry, but they looked just plain silly "cantering" with their arms to get the horse to pick up a canter. The only horse that got it quickly was the beginner's horse. She hadn't even cantered before, so it worked beautifully for her.

          Again, their ground handling program was very effective, especially for the beginner and the fox hunter with the huge horse.

          As for the Parelli-trained horses that don't understand regular cues, I can't say. The 5-yo mare I'm working with had had no ground driving and had never worn a bit. She had been worked with Parelli games for a year. She was ready to start mounted work, except for ground driving. And since they couldn't get past the circle game with her (she'd rear straight up and stay there), her training stalled there. She was fine at liberty in the round pen, and I was able to saddle and mount her. She was SO CLOSE to being ready to mount, but they just couldn't get there because of their insistence on the circle game. I don't think it is a good idea to skip ground driving, but that is just my opinion.

          I believe we should be willing to look at more than any one method. Centered Riding really improved my skills, but that isn't all I use. I was willing to learn Parelli's, even though I've been riding and training horses for 30 years. I've incorparated a number of their concepts into my handling and training. I am open minded. I simply object to the exclusiviness of the system--or maybe that's just how the people I know who use it view it. As I said, I've never met Mr. Parelli.
          "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."

          Comment


          • matryoshka-no need to explain yourself! I have seen what you have seen and observed what you have observed! Believe me!

            I suppose I just find it interesting that people "blame" Parelli for being the problem.

            The only mistake I think the Parelli's made was creating the Level 1 monster-by telling people they will be better equipped (or know more or whatever) than most horse people after level 1.

            I had a debate about this with a PNH friend of mine and she did agree with the idea-keep in mind post people that post on COTH have VERY different backgrounds than the very underexposed "backyard rider". For people that still think breaking a horse means roping them to the ground, PNH is a godsend for the horses in those homes. And a typical Level one student would no more about safety than those raising horses in such a rogue environment.

            I think sometimes we get a bit tunnel visioned and forget where other people come from.

            Anyway-I keep repeating it isn't the program-it isn't what they teach that causes the problem-it is the lack of perception by the Parelli student.

            The ones that don't get it, just don't...and would likely be annoying dressage riders or hunter riders if they were taking lessons in that environment.

            Haven't you ever met someone that took lessons for YEARS but just didn't get it? Does that mean there is a problem with dressage or the person learning.

            I have also seen very ill behaved horses in traditional barns as well...people seem to forget that! The difference is the poor unsuspecting level 1 student announces her arrival with the dreaded orange stick so now people can blame Parelli rather than saying the poor darling just stinks at riding!

            As far as riding-I love the Centered Riding Books and I have ridden with all kinds of posture, testing different ones to see what works. My horses improve when I seat with *my* understanding of the balance point-I have seen my reflection and I don't look leaned back or round backed-just normal but with a soft lower back that is released and moving with the horse.

            For those of us that spent years forcing an arhced back, the idea of the balance point just puts us where we should have been all along!

            Consider also we have no idea if these horses have saddles that fit (likely not), feet that are in balance, or whatever else goes wrong with horses.

            Again I have seen plenty of horses at shows with pinned ears...

            Anyway it is all what you make of something.

            Comment


            • It is interesting that so MANY of us have witnessed "bad" Parelli training.... and therefore such behavior is excused away because it isn't correct Parelli training... and yet we have so many examples - as many or more bad than good. My farrier has said the same about dealing with "parellied" horses - but says that my horse, who has never been PNH's in any way, shape or form, is the one horse he can shoe even when his back hurts, because even if my guy is a little stiff, or whatever, he NEVER leans or otherwise misbehaves while being shod. He's been on stall rest for 10 days, but I can give him his 15 minutes (2X day) walk on a loose lead, with him walking AT MY SHOULDER and not behind me at the end of a 12 foot (or whatever) lead without any misbehavior. Hmmm.... damn, I'm just an ammy using conventional methods. The marketing eludes me....

              Again, I think a great deal of the problem is that PNH works for PP because he has many, many years, of experience and can "read" a horse, but too many of his acolytes just "do what they are told" without any understanding of why or how to interpret the horse's reactions. So.... perhaps it ISN'T such a good program for greenies...

              Just throwing this out there for discussion, not advocating yea or nay.

              Comment


              • For what it's worth, I have found I get the most out of people who were 'horse people' before they heard of Parelli, learned the method and now teach it, then the ones who started out brand new (horseless) and Parelli was the first (and only) experience they had.

                As I said, I went once to a Level 3 certified instructor that I never went back to, even though I was a PNH 'newbie', I just felt like I knew more than she did, and I didn't have the respect that I have to have for an instructor. By contrast, I have ridden with two others, Dave Ellis and Linda Green, who were horsemen/women before. They were both fabulous teachers and trainers. And I have to say, they both seemed thrilled to teach someone who was already an accomplished rider (me), just as I tired of teaching raw beginners over and over, back when. I find it really no different than my search for a jumping trainer now. Trial and error.
                Life is short, do it now. www.dleestudio.com
                OTTB's
                My CANTER cutie, Steely Dan - IL
                My Exceller cutie, Ace (aka FiftyThreeCards)- NY

                Comment


                • I agree with a lot of what has been said here. This is great conversation.

                  I do agree that a homestudy program can be dangerous...hmm...so can drivers of cars (have you seen drivers out there?) ...and people who think they know everything when it comes to horses though they are new to it.

                  If i were starting out doing something new (ice skating)- I'd first read up on it, watch a few professionals, figure out what equipment i'm likely to need, and then find an instructor. There is no way in creation I'd try to ice skate via home study program- if one existed.

                  When taken with the right perspective, PNH is great. So are other methods- when done right. Shame on us for keeping those who misuse all techniques.

                  And shame on us for thinking a self directed, home study program is the end all be all of training. I'm no horse whisperer, and when i first started PNH, I audited two clinics to figure out what the heck to do.

                  I firmly believe the experienced folks out there should be setting the example for the non-experienced. Why let them get in the grips of those who misuse?

                  There are plenty of PNH horses that are model citizens, and yikes, plenty who are not. Would they be better if they were following a different form of horsemanship?

                  Maybe PNH would be better off, horses better off, if there were more exposure of those doing it right. More lessons and fewer clinics. Though the horsemanship is as old as dirt, the package is relatively new, and changing all the time. This is just me thinking out loud here. ONH also recognizes the need to change- for what it is worth, they have openly said their system is not perfect.

                  But if we take matters into our own hands and make it a point to teach good horsemanship, then newbies will learn from us- correct? Lead by example- and being responsible for what we do learn.

                  Just more thoughts...they keep flowin'!

                  -Ally
                  My blog: Change of Pace - Retraining a standardbred via dressage

                  Comment


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LMH:
                    I think sometimes we get a bit tunnel visioned and forget where other people come from.

                    Anyway-I keep repeating it isn't the program-it isn't what they teach that causes the problem-it is the lack of perception by the Parelli student.

                    The ones that don't get it, just don't...and would likely be annoying dressage riders or hunter riders if they were taking lessons in that environment.

                    Haven't you ever met someone that took lessons for YEARS but just didn't get it? Does that mean there is a problem with dressage or the person learning.
                    </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    The real difference is that an aware,qualified, proffesional trainer will try several different teaching/training techniques and when they see that the student/horse is not progressing they will REFER them to a different trainer that could possibly communicate to them better. Not exhaust client of all funds and then just write them off as someone who just doesn't get it.
                    Corner Stone Farm
                    Weeki Wachee,FL .Follow us on FB!

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gray17htb:
                      The real difference is that an aware,qualified, proffesional trainer will try several different teaching/training techniques and when they see that the student/horse is not progressing they will REFER them to a different trainer that could possibly communicate to them better. Not exhaust client of all funds and then just write them off as someone who just doesn't get it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      I'm sorry, but I started laughing when I read this. I know a quite a few people who've had horses in training with and taken lessons for years from "qualified professionals." And they never have learned how to ride or to handle a horse well.

                      The "QPs" in these cases can be found in any breed or discipline. And they're not bad people -- they're mostly good horsemen, in fact. They just aren't very good at instruction, but they're not going to pass their little money pots off to someone else just because of that little detail.

                      sorry, that was OT. And to be fair, a lot of these owners wouldn't "get it" if you beat it in to their heads with a crop. So it probably doesn't matter who they take lessons from. I'm sure the QP figures the $$$$ are going to spent anyway, they may just as well flow into his pocket as someone else's.
                      __________________________
                      "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                      the best day in ten years,
                      you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                      Comment


                      • Having thought about the points raised here, I've finally pinpointed my frustration. I realize that the people I see using Parelli may not have the system down correctly, and I take that into account. What I do have a problem with is the instruction given at the clinics. These were certified instructors, and I didn't like some of the things they were teaching. Maybe it just went against my personal style, but some of the things I didn't like also weren't interpreted well by the students.

                        Having said that, there is NO WAY I could ever run a clinic for any style of training. I tried helping with a children's horse camp this summer, and I really had trouble working with a group. I had the other instructor coach the entire group while I spent one-on-one time with students on their particular issues.

                        So I'm willing to accept that the flaws I saw have to do with a clinic format rather than the individual instructors or PNH.

                        I LOVE my carrot stick! I don't use it to do PNH games, but it is great for ground work--especially trailer loading. It has just the right amount of stiffness and is very visible to the horse. I don't usually have to touch them with it, except for occasional tapping. When I used it during the Level 1 clinic, I kept thinking of all the times I could have used this more effectively than a dressage whip many times.

                        Gray17htb, ethical trainers refer clients out to people better qualified for a particulr problem. Unethical people bleed you dry. I don't think this is specific to any type of discipline or program. I think sometimes egos get in the way and some trainers refuse to admit defeat. I respect people who know when they have reached their limit and are willing to admit it. I do think that the PNH system courts the belief that they can solve any problem with their method, but this is just my opinion. If people believe that, they aren't likely going to try a different method when they get stalled. That's what happened with the 5-yo I'm working with.
                        "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."

                        Comment


                        • This is the exact same thread as the other two. Can we just lump them together and banish them?
                          Corner Stone Farm
                          Weeki Wachee,FL .Follow us on FB!

                          Comment


                          • Hey, how about a new forum: All Parelli, All the Time. And whatever the thread is about, the content of the posts could be reduced to

                            Yes

                            No

                            Does not

                            Does, too

                            Oh, yeah?

                            Yeah
                            __________________________
                            "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                            the best day in ten years,
                            you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                            Comment


                            • lol that sums this one up pretty well!
                              ~Kate
                              Owned by Lit, 1988 Russian Arabian
                              Member of the Bareback Riders Clique, Proud Closet Canterer

                              Comment


                              • Two Simple, very proud of you for your defense! I couldn't take it anymore here, so I dropped out of the thread. I'm gonna print it out for reading, it is interesting to see the perspectives.

                                The reason a lot of horses probably look so sour is that people get stuck in 'Level One Limbo" or something like that, I forget exactly. But basically, they keep doing the 7 Games over and over, the same way each time. And why shouldn't the horse get bored? He has every right too-its not fun and challenging anymore for him. I got stuck there once, and realized I needed too get moving to keep the respect of my horse. Once I moved on and kept going through the program, the respect improved tenfold with Little Girl. And Lit, who is a dominating horse who would probably seriously hurt someone (he almost did to me before we started the stuff) now has no problems listening and doing what I ask. And his awesome Arab spirit is coming out more and more every day.
                                ~Kate
                                Owned by Lit, 1988 Russian Arabian
                                Member of the Bareback Riders Clique, Proud Closet Canterer

                                Comment


                                • Oh, dang it!
                                  I was busy embarrassing myself on the other Parelli thread and missed this one!
                                  DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!! - God

                                  Comment

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