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Lameness gurus: what do you see? New videos

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  • #41
    Sorry, hadn't checked in in a while - no, I didn't mean digital pulse is a sign of EPM - I meant the fact that you are pretty sure the saddle fits would make me more inclined to look at EPM (rather than saddle fit).

    Also, someone mentioned PSSM (also called EPSM in non-QHs). I think this is a good thought. The exploding on the lunge and while ridden can be a symptom. Is she really hard-muscled?

    Comment


    • #42
      Mystery lameness and weird unexplained spooking and checking out DOES sound neuro to me. Just keep it in the back of your head

      Comment


      • #43
        I also was thinking RH. You'll notice she isn't tracking up on it like the on the left hind. Also, when the contact was released for a moment going to the left, her head was bobbing up, not down as it would for a front leg, But I'd like to see her on a long rein with no contact (contact can hide the lameness) and on a 20 meter circle as that might show the movement better than a big loopy around the ring circle.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by PoohLP View Post
          Also, when the contact was released for a moment going to the left, her head was bobbing up, not down as it would for a front leg.
          Wait a sec-- all my horsey life I believed bobbing up tended to indicate front end, bobbing down was hind end. (with all the asterisks that this is not firm proof, etc, but it's just a starting point for looking into what hurts & where). Have I been wrong all this time?

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by HungarianHippo View Post
            Wait a sec-- all my horsey life I believed bobbing up tended to indicate front end, bobbing down was hind end. (with all the asterisks that this is not firm proof, etc, but it's just a starting point for looking into what hurts & where). Have I been wrong all this time?
            Ummm, I could be wrong. I thought down for front, up for hind, but normally I just feel the leg when I'm riding so I am perfectly willing to be called wrong. It is possible I am getting the "rule backwards in my head. Wouldn't be my first case of mental dyslexia!

            Either way, I still see that RH not coming through, which was the bigger tell to me as it was hard to see how the head was moving since it was being held up in the video.

            Have you considered SI? When my horse got explosive (albeit not lame, just nastily explosive) and not wanting to go forward), it ended up being a back and SI issue that was resolved with chiro and massage. He also was doing the head in the air like he just don't care thing your mare was doing. If she was running out in the field and slipped/fell funny, that could be enough to make throw it out.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by PoohLP View Post
              Ummm, I could be wrong. I thought down for front, up for hind
              No, the head bobs up when the lame front limb hits the ground. See videos for Case One here in the Lameness Lab:

              http://www.equineguelph.ca/Tools/lame_video.php


              For a hind limb lameness you usually look for a hip hike, but if there's a head bob you will often see the head bob down when the lame hind limb strikes the ground.

              Case in point: Here's some video of my mare who has a chronic severe lameness in her left hind (torn DDFT/navicular damage). You can see her head bobbing down when her left hind hits the ground (tip: after pressing "play" hold the space bar down to play in slow motion).

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPDLceNKGwk

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHIkTXHTDcU

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              • #47
                Originally posted by HungarianHippo View Post
                Wait a sec-- all my horsey life I believed bobbing up tended to indicate front end, bobbing down was hind end. (with all the asterisks that this is not firm proof, etc, but it's just a starting point for looking into what hurts & where). Have I been wrong all this time?
                You are correct. When a painful front leg hits the ground, horses tend to raise their head, relieving some of the weight on the front end. When a painful hind leg hits the ground, they may lower their head to relieve weight on the hind end. Head bobs are usually much more noticeable on front limb lameness.

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                • Original Poster

                  #48
                  IME, head up for front end, and hind end is not consistent. Can be head down or to the side, or nothing in the head at all.

                  I'm going to try to get someone to video a lunge session Sunday if she's still off, and repost Always easiest when there isn't a rider interfering
                  COTH's official mini-donk enabler

                  "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    OK phew! PoohLP, just wanted to say I wasn't trying to call you out. Just wanted to confirm because it was entirely possible I had it wrong, like maybe some 4H leader decades ago had given me the wrong info and I was mortified if I had been perpetuating it.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by HungarianHippo View Post
                      OK phew! PoohLP, just wanted to say I wasn't trying to call you out. Just wanted to confirm because it was entirely possible I had it wrong, like maybe some 4H leader decades ago had given me the wrong info and I was mortified if I had been perpetuating it.
                      No worries. I don't mind being wrong. I just had it mixed up in my head.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        I see right hind as well. Watch her right hip...it's dropping. I'm not saying it's the hip, but dropping the hip is a dead give-away.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          My first impression was also something in the back: kissing spines or an SI injury, but I have a story to tell.

                          We had a horse here, that came to me as 4yo. The owner had had him started by the local (excellent) cowboy as he'd had "reactive behavior issues". Fair enough. He seemed fixed, and she was ready for him to go forward with his training, primarily in dressage.

                          The horse was sweet and obedient, but a mess from day one. Four beat canter, couldn't give and soften or be remotely round, no lateral bend etc.

                          Now, I need to interject an incident that would become known as the red herring. About a year before he came to me, he apparently jumped out of his paddock, taking the top rail and falling heavily. He had been lame for several months on his right hind (had seemed to have landed on that hip, road rash, etc.) and vet had proscribed rest and time.

                          So given that story and the way the horse looked, we assumed back and/or spine problems. The vet the owner used wanted us to build up muscle, etc. but after 30 days, we were no longer comfortable riding him as his discomfort was so evident.

                          We took him to the universit hospital, expecting to hear about and old hip fracture, SI tear, or kissing spines. The diagnosis: the X-rays of his front feet looked like a bomb had gone off in them. Given his young age and lack of work, it was felt it was a congenital malformation/weakness. He was not obviously lame or even positive to hoof testers because his level of discomfort was so big and had been so constant for so long (probably most of his young life) he had just learned to do the best he could ( like a soared walker). The "stuff" we saw that pointed to things in his top line, was really just how he had adapted to the pain, and the damage was almost identical in both feet so he was bilaterally even. The vet likened it to having to walk on uneven ground in high heels. Painful and difficult, but doable. Tragic and horrible. He did, somewhat, block out in his feet, which is what sent him for X-rays, but he never blocked out fully. Even as they were shooting the X-rays the vet said he wasn't convinced there would be anything there. We were all shocked by what we saw.

                          Given the extremely poor prognosis for a comfortable life, the owner elected the euthanize him.

                          Ever since then, I always check feet. First and last, I always check the feet.
                          Phoenix Farm ~ Breeding-Training-Sales
                          Eventing, Dressage, Young Horses
                          www.phoenixsporthorses.com
                          Check out my new blog: http://califcountrymom.blogspot.com

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                          • #53
                            Right hind, her hips are not moving evenly and the hock is not flexing.
                            "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

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                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              Well, her hock flexed sound for the vet.

                              Per my BM, she seemed happy yesterday. I haven't checked today, it's been a hot and busy day at work. I promise I'll check back on Sun, Mon, or Tues with more video and an update Those are my next days off.
                              COTH's official mini-donk enabler

                              "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                I kind of skimmed through the posts, so forgive me if missed it, but did your vet test for or consider testing for EPM? I believe that the patchy sweating you have described is a symptom of EPM.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #56
                                  He did consider and said "no." I can tell you that at one point we did try to move her over by her tail while trying to ultrasound, and she did not budge.
                                  COTH's official mini-donk enabler

                                  "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by TheJenners View Post
                                    He did consider and said "no." I can tell you that at one point we did try to move her over by her tail while trying to ultrasound, and she did not budge.
                                    Slight neurological impairment presents differently, more like a hint of incoordination, almost a little stumble here and there, or foot drag, or awkward turn, not generally as a steady, even light head bob as it was showing at first.

                                    I think this may be one of those puzzlers that you may never figure and she will be fine with time, or eventually have enough clear symptoms that everyone will go "why didn't we think of that!".

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #58
                                      I kept hoping for a "ah ha!" light bulb moment, like when we ultrasounded, ta daa, a cyst or something. Oh wells. Maybe, just maybe, she'll be better this week and the Regumate will be a miracle worker. I hate that this nice mare OBVIOUSLY has discomfort somewhere, she's a try-harder kind of horse. After seeing what she *can* do on the lunge, she restrained herself greater with a rider or else I would have been launched out of the arena.
                                      COTH's official mini-donk enabler

                                      "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        I second/third/fourth the kissing spine/SI issue thoughts. The scooting/explosiveness is highly indicative of that, and I've seen an SI horse act that way without being under saddle. Hit a slightly uneven bit of ground with a hind foot and eep, bolt!

                                        Good luck! I had a race mare with quite a few different issues that we never 100% managed to figure out all of what was going on. Pentosan helped a lot with her, as did consistent work with her new mom. I called her "Rickity Cricket" for a reason! Loved her to death, but I def feel your frustration!

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Talking about strange lameness, we had a five year old that I was riding and was completely sound.
                                          Someone else started riding him and he started favoring his left front a bit.
                                          So, I rode him again to see what may be going on and, nothing.
                                          Same rider again and after a bit, somewhat off.

                                          The vet looked at him, said he had a slight tendon pull, we gave him some rest and put DMSO gel on that tendon for some days.

                                          Back to riding him, sound.
                                          Other rider takes over, slightly off, grrr.

                                          We finally decided to see if it was the saddle, I was riding him mostly in my Stubben Rex, at times my ranch saddle.

                                          We checked the other rider's saddle very carefully and the screw that holds the housing to the tree had worked clear thru the bars and was sticking out a bit past the sheepskin, but only with weight on the saddle.
                                          Looking for it with our hands, we could feel it right there, just enough to at times poke the horse's shoulder.
                                          We took the screw out, cut the end off and no more off horse.
                                          Why that one saddle and too long screw had never bothered any other horse, who knows.

                                          You really never know until you find what is going on.
                                          It may be something as goofy as that one screw being just a tad too long.
                                          I hope you find something as easy to fix as cutting a screw back a bit was.

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