I got swindled with my Northampton cutie!!!

[talloaks]

Let me just state a little background here. I first learned about the sale of OTTB;s from the canter thread on this forum. The very same weekend I was hosting a warnmblood inspection with over 50 entries. There was no way I could do anything but brieg emails to a canter volunteer and some telephone conversations with the trainer. I was VERY busy getting things organized.
The horse left teh site the day it poured-it went home, but not sure where home was, MA or was it CT, and the trainer had someone else looking at the horse. Finally we connected, I don't know where the horse is other than one of their farms somewhere. They seemed like super nice people and they answered my questions but by all accord the horse was what I wanted. No I did not specifically ask about cribbing. I have had a horse farm since 1976 and have never encountered an cribber. So really I know nothing about them except I sure didn't want the rest of my show and breeding stock to start cribbing.
No I don't want to give the horse away, I just felt the seller should take her and give me a refund due to non disclosure which is wrong and in real estate transactions will mean the end of a sale.
So the trainer is not trust worthy, the little black mare is Hay Worthy for sure, and it is not her fault. I'm not taking it out on her. So be it for the trainer, he has to live with himself if he has a conscience.
So that is the purchase in a nutshell--buying when I am doing other major activities but never would have gone to Northanpton anyway. I have purchased many horses by picture or video in the past that have been wonderful, but these are sporthorse breeders and maybe they/we are just different or have higher standards that the race track trainers in general. Maybe breeders do as a whole.
So for those of you who think I am so terrible and have ruined my reputations so be it. This is America after all and we all can have our own opinions whether they are right or wrong. I believe that I can express my opinion even if some of you think differently. I don't think I have judged all of you the way so many of you have judged me in print.
But quite frankly---it doesn't matter at all!!

[xegeba]

talloaks, you farm looks really beautiful and it would appear that you have giant, green pastures. I would be shocked if a OTTB that probably has been stabled 24/7 for most of its life, wouldn't die and go to heaven to get out in those fields... and quit cribbing. At least while it is eating, which it would seem like it could do all day long.

[Jumphigh83]

Send her to me! If cribbing is the worst thing she does you are lucky. Cribbing might be a "disclosable vice' but I could care less. My horses mother weaved like a bad thing and my horse does not...I have at least four cribbers in the barn NONE "caught it" from any other they came with it...I have two weavers currently but with enough turn out that isnt an issue either. To headline that you were "swindled" does a grave disservice to the OTTB industry... I would change the headline...you werent "swindled" at worst you were uninformed....

[Cartier]

Talloaks,
I don’t have the time or the desire to read through 14 pages of this stuff… all I will say is that you are an exemplary breeder who for roughly 20 years has acted with honesty and integrity. Naturally you expected the same of others.

The fact that the mare cribbed should have been disclosed to you when you asked if she had issues (or vices). Any ethical seller would have answered your questions with, “the mare cribs.” To suggest otherwise is pure baloney. I am so sorry that you have gone through this, first with the mare and then with some of these poster's comments. You are a dear and wonderful person who simply tried to do something nice for the mare and all you’ve gotten is grief. Those of us who know you know you don’t deserve this.

[DMK]

talloaks, I don't know how many more people can tell you that there is simply NO empirical evidence that cribbing is a learned behavior - you'll either want to absorb that little tidbit or not. In any event, slap a cribbing collar on and you can continue to indulge the fantasy of learned cribbing and not be worried about it as she won't be cribbing. We call this "problem solved". Handy trick. Try it some time.

Also, regardless of what you might think, most race trackers in this country don't think twice about cribbing, stall weaving, or stall walking. Round Table self mutilated and it didn't stop anyone from sending their mares to him. People sacrifice a lot for performance.

You bought a $4K mare. She wasn't headed for slaughter. She could not in any credible sense of the word be defined as a "rescue". She wasn't even close to it. She was owned by someone who didn't want to fork out almost that much over the winter until the next meet that suited her skillset opened, but priced her at a level that defined her value as a racehorse with X degree of skill. She wasn't priced with your values in mind at all.

You bought a horse sight unseen, you didn't ask the question and you bought her from people that didn't know, understand or possibly give a rat's ass about your discipline and needs. The phrase "caveat emptor" leaps to mind when I think of you, but I don't think there was any intentional deception on the part of the seller. By your own words, they did not deceive you. You simply failed to ask about something that isn't that important in their world.

And I suspect all you need to do is put 90-120 days on the horse and you should be able to sell her for more than you paid for her if she is agreeable and talented, cribbing notwithstanding. If she isn't, well ain't that the crapshoot we ALL take when buying a green horse?

And yes, I could voice my opinion about how all warmblood breeders are horribly uninformed about current research on the known sources of cribbing, but when faced with overwhelming evidence that most folks were sort of educated in this regard, I might rethink my position. Not that I draw any comparisons, mind you.

[jenarby]

When someone asks a racetracker is a horse has "issues" their take on that is, soundness or illness. Not vices. Because to them,vices are not an "issue."

I think the reason why this thread has caused people to come up in arms....is because of both the title and the idea that this trainer "swindled" anyone...also that CANTER could have any type of blame for it.

If anything, the information was left out only because the quesation was never asked. It wasn't something they thought was a big deal, so why would they think anything of it? I doubt it was intentional at all. Trainers on the track in general have no clue what a "show horse" person wants or needs in a riding horse. It's like speaking german to a chinese person. All they (the trainers) know is, "this horse is not running like I want...it needs to go." Hopefully to a good home.....

[Tupa]

Some one buys a 3500$ horse for "personal use" after the previous horse to hold this position crosses the bridge. That is not a rescue.

The OP was brash, insensitive and rude.

Send the mare to Luray, I have never had an issue with cribbing.

[nightsong]

I'm pretty upset at the wording constantly from talloaks that "CANTER knew." CANTER is NOT one person who has encyclopediac knowledge of EACH AND EVERY one of the probably a thousand horses listed on all of the sites. It's a person here, another person there, and IF they do talk, they may or may not tell each other EVERYTHING about EACH AND EVERY horse they saw that day. And if they DID, they might forget some one thing about some one horse...see what I mean? There is no "CANTER" that knows everything. There is a BUNCH of people, who may individually know a lot, and who may or may not pass it along, and it MAY or may not be remembered by the one particular individual who you happen to talk to at that time...let's be FAIR, shall we? And how about being FAIR to that little mare? I particularly think you are FABULOUSLY lucky to have gotten SUCH a good match in a track horse WITHOUT a pre-purchase vet exam. Without a vet exam, you KNOW that you are taking a BIG risk...

[Karosel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
And yes, I could voice my opinion about how all warmblood breeders are horribly uninformed about current research on the known sources of cribbing, but when faced with overwhelming evidence that most folks were sort of educated in this regard, I might rethink my position. Not that I draw any comparisons, mind you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Im not uninformed! My wb broodmare is a cribber and NOT ONE of her foals crib! So yeah I am informed.... first handed.

[TheJenners]

Good heavens, what a thread!

The OP is angry and rightfully so, therefore her post is one that is angry. That others have gotten their hair rubbed the wrong way is not her fault. I'm sure no one on here has ever, ever said something in anger that was stronger than reality? Or wrong?

Yes, in everything I've ever heard, seen or read (including Horse Industry classes), cribbing is a vice and must be disclosed. It can actually be considered an unsoundness because of the way the horses rub their teeth down and the fact that I've heard of research that says cribbers colic more (heard, not read with my own eyes, flames not allowed ).

Plus, some people plain flat don't like cribbers. Either thy can't stand the sound or even watching the horse. Or they don't like the way those little equine teeth can tear through a barn and fences.

I think they should take the horse back. If nothing else, if she is that nice then they won't have a problem re-selling the mare. If they are adamant about not taking her back for a re-sell...I'd be worried about other issues that haven't popped up yet.

[tikihorse]

Hey! If you can't find her a home, I'LL take her! Cribbing is a minor vice, in my opinion. Much less than, say, rearing or bolting. And I could use a good, sound, healthy horse right about now!

Let me know how much it'll be to ship her to Wisconsin...

[talloaks]

Night song posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm pretty upset at the wording constantly from talloaks that "CANTER knew." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For heavenssake Nightsong, I have not said that Canter knew. The sellers said that canter knew!! get your facts straight! I have not bad mouthed canter at all either.
Good grief!!

[nightsong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by talloaks:
Night song posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm pretty upset at the wording constantly from talloaks that "CANTER knew." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For heavenssake Nightsong, I have not said that Canter knew. The sellers said that canter knew!! get your facts straight! I have not bad mouthed canter at all either.
Good grief!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The SELLERS did not post that, YOU did. Therefore, it was from you. The end of the story.

[talloaks]

Oh keep on twisting night song!!!

[Castlegate]

FWIW: I tried my OTTB for 3 weeks at his farm before I bought him...he did not crib once when I was there. He was three.

I took him hom and within one day he was cribbing....so it can just begin too....

He is now 11 and has been at 3 different barns with as many at 36 horses and never ONCE did another horse learn to crib from him. He wears a collar..no biggie....just like horses hat wear bell boots, he just needs it....he no longer cribs outside and rarely cribs at all...

Its not the end of the world....and if you don't want her...send her to me I'll take her!

[CoolMeadows]

Talloaks - I quit reading this thread on page 8, but I want to share my cribber story with you. First though, please take the racing plates off your mare before she injures herself, whatever your future plans for her may be.

I bought a 4 year old OTT mare one November, the most expensive horse I've ever bought - the same price you paid including the shipping. She was 15.3, very underdeveloped, and a cribber. After 2 months off the track with lots of turnout and being fed pellets (I think it was Legends 12) and beet pulp she didn't need to wear a collar anymore. She maybe cribbed once a week or so.

By the next fall, she was a drop dead gorgeous rotund dapple grey, 16.2, and a 10+ mover. My novice working student adored her and this mare packed her around the girl's very first show, ending up champion. She loped down and took this kid over her first 4' fence one day.

I had a 13 year old catch rider show her as an early 6 year old and she was champion in the Children's at a HITS show.

I sold her for a considerable amount more than "just a few hundred dollars".

I would be upset too to be surprised by a vice, but give your mare a chance to be the nice horse it sounds like she is.

[imapepper]

In talloaks defense...she never said that CANTER swindled her. She said the trainers/owners swindled her. It was Cartier that made the claim that CANTER misrepresented the horse

talloaks, I am sorry that everyone jumped down your throat but you chose some words that just sent off hot buttons in most peoples heads. The statement about wanting to get her out of there before she taught any of your "expensive" horses to crib (and warmblood vs TB thing will rile most TB lovers FYI ) and recouping your losses at the meat market are just not constructive ways to vent about a horse

Most track people really don't care unless, as another poster mentioned, cribbing becomes very destructive. And if she could run, they couldn't care less what she does in her stall. A horse that can run can eat his groom for breakfast every morning and the typical racetrack trainer won't care...he can always find another groom And quite honestly, I have worked for a trainer (jumpers) who had a similar view...he didn't care what the horse did if he/she could jump I really hope that she works out for you...she might quit when she has a chance to relax a bit

[Beezer]

I heart DMK.

Sorry you feel burned, talloaks. But as the proud owner of a CANTER cutie -- bought through a picture on the Web site, phone calls to the trainer and shipped from Michigan to California -- I can honestly say that if you ask the (right) questions, the trainer will answer. You didn't ask. End of story.

Unfortunately, despite whether you think we all failed to take your comments as "tongue in cheek," you have done damage to your reputation. (Others had already done great damage to their own before slinging mud here. ) And trying to somehow demean CANTER in the process only makes a bad situation (for you) worse (for you).

You've gotten some wonderful advice here. I hope, for the mare's sake, that you take it and either learn to live with what you consider unlivable or sell the horse so you both can move on.

FWIW, my dear, sweet Topper, the CANTER cutie, is stabled right next door to what I envisioned would be my fancy-schmancy homebred WB. The homebred WB cribs (the very least of his many, many problems), and he has since he was barely a yearling -- and we've never had another cribber on the place, including his mother. The only thing Topper has learned from him is that I'm the one with the treats.

[Hucklebug]

I don't have time to read through all the posts here, but the OP doesn't sound like a horse person I'd like to be around! Send a horse for meat because it cribs? Some of the nicest and most rideable horses I've ever known are cribbers and I wouldn't turn any of them into a can of ALPO because of it. Would you give up a nail biting kid for adoption? A thumb sucker? Does the one thumb sucking kid learn it from another? I'm sorry if the seller was less than forthright with information on the horse, and be annoyed with them for that, but for the lvoe of God, don't malign the poor animal and act like its got rabies. Jesus. Are we horsemen and women around here or playing "my little pony"? These are performance animals not assembly line cars.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

I have now caught up on this ever growing thread. Talloaks, I read that you did go into town and buy her a Miracle Collar. I am glad you did. I also read about you asking your vet about the ulcer treatments. Does this mean you are going to give it a try with her? She is such a lovely girl and it seems like, after your initial post, and the advice that was given, you have calmed down. I don't blame you for being upset about not being told, but my biggest concern is for the horse. I know that after your trainer being upset, and your husband being upset, that your adrenaline may have been boiling. I just want to know if the mare is doing better with the cribbing since you bought the strap.