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If slaughter is banned, what happens to all the unwanted horses?

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  • #61
    on the other hand, there's France, where they are "paying" (some sort of tax incentive) couples to have children....

    and... then all those children will want to eat un cheval.

    tongue, firmly in cheek....

    Comment


    • #62
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What I'm concerned about is, we cannot even support the wild mustang herds in the west... there isn't enough grazing land for them.

      How can we support all of the horses; because every year, there will be more, and more, and more.... and unless there are controls against breeding - there's no end in sight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

      I don't understand why they don't MOVE some of the wild horses to land that can sustain them, such as here in Missouri. We have so much land, thousands and thousands of acres, i.e., Mark Twain National Forest, which is actually serviced and probably owned BY THE USDA. I brought this up to Senator Bond who ignored my suggestion. BTW for some reason he was an advocate for MO wild horses, but still voted Nay on the Amendment????

      Comment


      • #63
        I think there isn't enough grazing land for them because the cattle barons want to use all that land for their cattle. Plenty of land out west, just some people aren't very good about sharing.
        Until they are safe.
        www.safehorses.org

        Comment


        • #64
          So, if the horse population is going up and slaughter figures have been going down, why do people think that slaughter is what controls the horse population?

          In the 90's, over 300,000 horses per year were slaughtered. Now it's 90,000 if you include the horses that were transported over the border. Where are all those non slaughtered horses going?
          Until they are safe.
          www.safehorses.org

          Comment


          • #65
            Well... if you read of SOME of the neglect/abuse cases, you discover that there are dead bodies of horses throughout the properties... or piled up... or...???

            and what of all the ones that are NOT reported or discovered?

            I don't keep track of these sorts of things... but when 57 horses were rescued from a "collector" in Davison, Michigan many years ago, I think there were nearly that many skeletons/ bodies on the property too.

            Comment


            • #66
              Er, horse population up, slaughter pop. down is a balanced equation (more horses owned = less horses not owned (slaughter), more horses not owned (slaughter) = less horses), if indeed slaughter is a qualifier (which it is according to that pattern). In other words, if more horses were slaughtered, there would be a lower horse pop. (unless breeding increased). It follows that if less horses are slaughtered, the higher the horse pop. (as originally stated).

              To the person who said there are National Parks available-- grazing horses in a National Park would ruin the ecosystem and that's not a viable option.

              Comment


              • #67
                That depends on how much the population is up versus how much the slaughter figures declined.

                I wasn't the one who mentioned National Parks, but I was referencing public land. If horses grazing there would ruin the ecosystem, what do we think the cattle is doing?
                Until they are safe.
                www.safehorses.org

                Comment


                • #68
                  That's right in China they kill the newborn babies at birth.


                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
                  I guess we could be like china and limit the number of kids while we are at it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Horses are much more destructive grazers then cattle. Plus they require more acerage to sustain them then a cow. Cattle are very efficient grazers, sheep even more so. Cattle have essentially replaced buffalo on the vast lands out west they are cloven hoofed runinants just like the buffalo. National Park lands are preserved and cannot be used for grazing or lumber production. They are controlled by the Dept of the Interior. National Forest Land can be used lumber and other commercial operations they are managed by the USDA. BLM land is also controlled by the Interior Dept and can be used for grazing,hunting etc. This is not to say that some lands out west are not overgrazed many are. One has to remember that the amount of animal units varies from area to area. Take a pasture in Virginia or Kentucky. An acre or 2 will support a cow/calf unit. When you get into the plains states with its short grass arid climate that may go up to 20 to 30 acres or more. And when you hit Utah,Nevada where a lot of wild horses are you may need 100 acres or more to support a animal unit horse or cow. Regarding horse populations the TB market is having its best years ever so the number of horses has gone up from approx 33000 a few years ago to about 38000 or so. Since this is the segment that provides the most horse related money in states like Kentucky,Florida, and many others try to stop them from breeding more horses. The warmblood market is exploding here in this country. Are you going to tell breeders that they cannot breed. Most breeders I know can't stand to have a open mare around the farm. It costs them money in a business where you don't make a lot of it.

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                    • #70
                      So let me ask you this,if its ok to slaughter horses why not start a cat and dog slaughter plant after all there are way to many of them, so whats the difference, I love my dog, cat and horse, they are my pets and no one can say that the way in which these horses are killed is humane, would you have your vet out with his captive bolt gun to kill your horse, then when its down you watch as his throat is slit, and you watch the very life drain out of his body along with his blood. The problem is out of site out of mind, once its off of your property somehow that makes you less responsible for whats about to happen, you just dont think about it. Yesterday for example a very old grey thin sway backed horse covered in filth was brought to the sale, did I mention he had no vision in his left eye and very little left in his right, he was ridden into the ring yes ridden, I bought him for $50.00 I also paid to have him humanly put down. This horse gave someone 20+ years of his life, Im sure have gave hundreds of rides and this was his thanks, this was how he was repaid, when I saw him tears welled up in my eyes, this is not the way I would have repaid my dear friend. He will be with me in my heart.

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                      • #71
                        Maggie, thank you for doing that. Until slaughter is banned and the incentive to bleed the last 300.00 (or whatever amount) is removed, you will have uncaring owners greedily looking for that last bit of money. When slaughter buyers are no longer buying at auctions and horses are bringing what they are truly worth as horses instead of by the pound, then maybe people will start euthanizing those with no quality of life.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSP:
                          The laws of supply and demand should kick in and the horse population will eventually be reduced to what the market can handle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          But there's also the bell curve. Out of any population, there are some excellent individuals (in the top 10%) and a bunch in the middle who are 'average', and some dreadful individuals (about 10%).

                          Whether you're talking a group of 10,000 horses or 100,000 horses, about 10%, by definition, are not desireable animals.

                          So, what happens to them? I think that's the underlying question. Sure, the young animals who simply haven't been trained--well, all they need is some training. But the lame, the damaged, the broken, the mix of giraffe and polar bear. What do you do with those animals?

                          I love horses, but really, I am not going to spend some $5000 a year to keep a giraffe/polar-bear cross alive in my back yard. Are you?
                          -- Member of the COTH Appendix QH clique and the dressage-saddle-thigh-block-hating clique.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            "Horses are much more destructive grazers then cattle. Plus they require more acerage to sustain them then a cow. Cattle are very efficient grazers, sheep even more so. "

                            But that has nothing to do with why wild horses are being pushed off government lands. The government leases these huge tracts of land to the big cattlemen. The cattlemen only care about making money. Make up lame excuses for downsizing wild horse herds = more open land for more cattle. Very sad when we sell of a bit of our national history just so a few rich rancher can get even richer.

                            (It has nothing to do with the ecosystem)

                            "That's right in China they kill the newborn babies at birth. "

                            You're joking, right? You know this is not true. In poorer areas some people did kill unwanted extra babies (pretty much only the girls). China does alot to keep peoples' opinions quiet or to keep outsiders from seeing what might be negative... so we really don't know if this is true or to what extent. Not sure what it has to do with horse slaughter either way though. :-D

                            "In my book, if a horse goes through a sale yard and nobody BUT the killers bid on it, then it is an unwanted horse."

                            But does your "unwanted" horse deserve to be killed just because someone was in a hurry to sell it and it had to go to auction?

                            You have to think many people looking for horses don't go to auctions (i.e. the low end "meat" buyer type auctions). Low end auctions aren't friendly places for the average buyer. The one near me won't let you mount the horse much less put it through its paces... so you know you're rolling the dice.

                            "I imagine that many of them will still die, they just won't end up on a plate in France or Belgium.
                            They'll become Alpo or they'll get a bullet in the head and be buried in a field."

                            That's oversimplifying things.

                            Yes, the really bad-off ones will be put down. What you're missing is that they won't spend their last few weeks crammed into tractor trailers or overcrowded feedlots where they're certain to go without everything they need except the bare minimum water and cheap food.

                            The even bigger picture is what it means for horses as a whole group. Suddenly the greed TB racehorse stable can't count on that last $250 profit for the horses who don't win... it's suddenly much harder to breed in huge numbers and kill off the 90% who break down, lose, or just aren't cut out of racing. The tracks would actually HAVE to sell these horses to the outside world if they want to make anything off them (as rendering plants pay little if anything). Individuals like you or I now have access to these horses and other large lots of horses (eg. big breeding operations who cull old mares).

                            It would change how auctions work! You could now safely sell your horse at auction without wondering if it was a death sentence.

                            It'll change the whole economics of horses. Having no kill buyers means at auction the horses are bid on based on their actual worth, not the number of pounds their dead carcass has on it.

                            "We have had horse slaughter available for years and yet we have people starving/abusing horses. By your reasoning we shouldn't have that now."

                            I agree 110%. The pro-slaughter people want people guilt-tripped into thinking anyone who bans slaughter is now personally responsible for the neglect/abuse that happens in the future. But the stats show otherwise!

                            "Many of the horses that end up at slaughter are there because their owners don't want/can't use them anymore - whether old, unsound, or whatever."

                            Have you ever been to a low-end auction, the kind the meat buyers get their 'inventory' from? Hundreds of horses -- all broke to ride or drive or both -- most should be sound & sane. It's NOT a handful of 35 yr old vicious nags.... it's just a dumping ground for people who don't feel like bothering to screen their buyers.

                            The other interesting thing about the auction is that nobody CARES the conditon the animal is brought in because it is a meat auction (and we all know it's ok for meat animals to suffer). A farmer thinking of dumping a few of his extras in the fall can just stop feeding them through the summer while he finishes harvesting the crops. Who cares if they arrive emaciated at the fall auction... there will always be a meat buyer who will give $50 or $150 or something for it. It becomes an excuse to abuse.

                            I speak from experience. I've bought an "unwanted" at the local auction (New Holland PA, the place where many meatmen fill their trucks). I paid about $275 for him, and because the auction caters to meatmen nobody got to ride him or show off his good points. You know what... it was the BEST $275 I've ever spent on anything! He's in my back yard right now, beautiful as can be. I ride him and we're starting work on basic dressage. He's also well broke to drive, and I'll be taking lessons to learn horse driving. I've seen ads for similar horses private-party for $1500-2500+. But since this was a "meat" buyer auction, buyers expect "meat" quality(assumption: defective) horses and the only winners are the brokers/meatmen who buy good horses for nothing.

                            I can't believe anyone would throw away such a wonderful animal! If I had bought my next horse elsewhere, this sweet gelding would've been taken by the meat-buyer that bid against me .... and all the horse's training, beauty, and smarts would've been reduced to a bloody puddle staining the concrete on some slaughterhouse floor. How evil are horses that they deserve such a horrible end?

                            Ban slaughter and give these marginal horses a second chance at a good home! Ban it and end the dumping ground for the huge-volume breeders, the racehorse people, and others who just want to make that $200 bucks who cares where the horse ends up.
                            Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Bravo, MayS! Well said!
                              www.horse-protection.org

                              No Horses to Slaughter Clique

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Well I am absolutely tickled that there will be no more slaughter!!I can't tell you how many times I've bid and lost to the meat man.I think it is easier emotionally for most people to just send their animals to the auction and keep telling themselves "blaze got a nice new home" and get a check mailed to them.Some people brought a beautiful German Shepherd to the clinic I work at.It died on the way.The poor thing died of bloat and it had been suffering for more than 24 hours before they came to have it euthanized.The woman remarked how glad she was the dog died on it's own so she didn't have to "go through the process" of the euthanasia.While that was one of the stupidest things I have ever heard I think many people just have an easier time sending a horse to the auction and "believing" it got a good home than making that life or death decision first hand.Like once they go to the auction it's out of their hands and now someone else will be the bad guy. Back to the dog story...I can't imagine coming home to a dead horse that I was plnning on euthanizing and saying "gee I'm glad flash coliced all day while I was at work and suffered and died so now I don't have to go through the process of euthanizing him,I'm so relieved!!"
                                All unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy!!!

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aregard:
                                  I love horses, but really, I am not going to spend some $5000 a year to keep a giraffe/polar-bear cross alive in my back yard. Are you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                  Not to be contrary, but if I rode and enjoyed that giraffe/polar bear cross until he could not be ridden, then yes, scary though he may look, I would pay $5000 a year to retire him. Would I buy him? Maybe--depends on if I liked his temperment.
                                  "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you." -Don Marquis
                                  **CEO of the TQ "Learn How To Ride or MOVE OVER!!" Clique**

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wasn't the one who mentioned National Parks, but I was referencing public land. If horses grazing there would ruin the ecosystem, what do we think the cattle is doing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    How long do you think it would be before the wolves started eating the horses? Now that is an envionmental quandry. Is the wolf recovery more higher priority than the horse?

                                    Both the cow and the horse are non-native to north america. Why sould either be on public grounds? Shouldn't we let the wolves and the buffalo fight it out?

                                    LF
                                    Lostfarming in Idaho
                                    http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t...etPleasure.jpg

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:

                                      Both the cow and the horse are non-native to north america. Why sould either be on public grounds? Shouldn't we let the wolves and the buffalo fight it out?

                                      LF </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


                                      Neither are Americans! So what is your point?
                                      ************************
                                      \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Actually a lot of the pressure comming from keeping horses of off public lands are comming from enviromental groups. They want to restrict all grazing of public lands and also do not want trailriding and horse camping on National Forest Land. Most of the cattle ranches out west are not owned by rich cattlemen. Government leases are mostly used by family ranches. Its just that out west large tracks are needed to sustain a animal. For example in Kentucky you can maintain 50 cows on 100 acres of good grass. Out west you may need 2500 acres or more depending on where you are to maintain those 50 cows. Those 50 cows may gross you about $31,000.00 in calf sales in a good market. After expenses that doesn' leave you much. So go ahead and figure how much land you need to make a living on. So many people think well this guys a rich cattle farmer because he controlls 15000 acres of land when in actuality he may be just getting by. Since the amounts of lands leases are controlled by the government and figure enviromental factors like weather and you can't blame them from being stingy with their land. Parts of the west were in a very severe drought situation for several years. Hay was almost non existent and there was no grass. Put a lot of cattle ranchers out of business, many had to disperse their herds for almost next to nothing. Thats one of the reasons for the high beef prices the past couple of years. So if you are a rancher and a cow is going to make you money to feed your family and a wild horse is just going to take away from it what do you want grazing on the land. Another problem is people moving out west and carving up private ranches into 20 acre mini ranches eliminating those grazing lands and putting more pressure onto government lands. As far as history the cow is as much as a part of the history of this country as the horse. I am not against keeping horses of public lands I like the idea. Its just that you can't let these herds get out of control. There is just to much competition for the land and water out west much of it comming from people moving to lands that are arid in nature and putting mini ranches,golf courses housing developments etc. All that puts more and more pressure on both the horses,cattle and the ranchers.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">you can't blame them from being stingy with their land. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


                                          their land? THEIR land?

                                          i thought it was the TAXPAYERS' land.

                                          no one owes these people a living.

                                          another example of welfare. it's ok to pick on poor people about it, but not ranchers?

                                          ok, back to topic. the problem of horse abuse and neglect wasn't solved by slaughter and it won't be solved by ending slaughter. they are two different issues.

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