Why aren't we training ATHLETES in this country?? Musings on GM, the weight issue, water breaks, etc.

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janeway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasmine:
If she wanted to lose the weight she could. I know for a fact she doesn't have a medical issue, so it's her lifestyle. I have no sympathy for her though. When she decided she'd had enough, the rest of us kept going!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad I'm not your friend Jasmine. That is just terrible sentiment towards someone you claim to be your friend. Have you considered that perhaps she might need some encouragement from you? But saying you have no sympathy for her, and then just leaving her behind when she can't keep up just struck me as horrible. My friends range in all different fitness levels, and usually when we do things we tailor the activity to who is coming, we certainly wouldn't just leave someone behind mid-way and say, well its her fault she's fat and out of shape but too bad.

Sorry to harp on your message, but it really got to me.

Fitness is important and I wish I had more of it. But unfortunately it doesn't come as easily to everyone.

_Its not the destination that matters, its the journey_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but Janeway, if the friend doesn't want to lose the weight (and if she wanted to, she would have made some kind of movement towards fitness) then why should Jasmine harp on her about it. THAT will just make her feel worse as well. My take is, its a personal decision, if you want to lose the weight YOU need to do it. Your friends harping shouldn't force you to do it. IF you are okay with being overweight then why should your friends encourage you to lose weight? Isn't that how eating disorders start?

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

[Anne FS]

Thanks for backing me up, Jair.

I originally brought it up because my point was that it always ticked me off that GM was ridiculing women for being fat when they obviously weren't, then when I realized he was gay I was like, duh, well, that's where he's coming from and then I just ignored it and I think everyone else should do the same. He's knocking women's weight issues because of HIS issues, not ours and that part of his instruction is not worth 2 cents. After the big blow-up about this issue a few years ago he doesn't do it in PH anymore but if you can find old issues going back many years, he definitely knocked women on their appearances. Think about it, a gay guy doesn't find the softness of women attractive like our boyfriends love, they're attracted to MALE bodies, lean and muscled. The curves and softness freak em out.

[Jasmine]

Janeway, no hard feelings. I simply accept her whatever size she is. She knows what we all do when we ride. We didn't want to cut our training short, and she understood. She knows she's not as fit as the three of us. She is comfortable with her size. Perfect. She is confident and a wonderful person. She just can not keep up with us. My friends are all different fitness levels too.

It just happens to be that these other two are more fit than me (trust me, they make me feel lazy and out of shape all the time ) and she's not that fit. We are seriously working on increasing these three horses' endurance and strength. We didn't want to waste the day.

Of course, if she wants to loose the weight, I'll be suportive and as helpful as I can be. SHE has to make that choice first though. If she's happy with how she is, who am I to tell her she's wrong?

Normal is Boring!

[Janeway]

See now I understand where Jasmine is coming from. That makes perfect sense.

When I read the orignal post it just seemed awful to leave the other friend behind!

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

[Tiramit]

I'm with you, rileyt! Yes, for some it's a hobby, but to be competitive in anything, one has to work at it. And if that "anything" happens to be a sport requiring physical activity, well gee, wouldn't that mean one would have to be shape?

Granted, I've been blessed with athletic genes and a tall, slim but not skinny athletic frame, BUT, that doesn't mean that I don't work out! It's actualy quite annoying to hear comments like, "oh, you're sooo lucky to be thin and in shape." Huh? I guess they didn't look closely enough at the scars that helped build those muscles! I work hard for my shape and when I don't work out, I feel the difference rather quickly!

Jumping is a sport, and I want to remain competive, therefore, I work out and practice, practice, practice. And that practice doesn't typically include walking for most of the ride. I've been riding comptetively for 20+ years, and I still drop my stirrups and ride for hours every week- on green, hot horses! And my saddle is the stripped-down, no padding kind.

2 stories:
I once asked a local trainer why she and her co-trainers didn't require their students to work without stirrups. The response was, "I wouldn't have any students if I actually made them work." And when the little horse doesn't go forward they solve it by slapping spurs on shaky legs and send the tots off to punish horses and possibly get themselves hurt.

With this same thought in mind, a friend of mine recently had a nasty spill (with injuries) off her horse while jumping VERY small jumps. She said she lost her stirrup and that caused the fall and asked me what she could do to prevent falling in the future. When I mentioned that she should work without stirrups and try to ride for longer periods of time, she said that wasn't it, there was a defect with the stirrup leather. Her typical routine is to ride for 20 minutes, with only 5 minutes of trotting, and maybe 3 of cantering, with plenty of walking in between. And she's exhausted from that! How could she ever expect to stay on with that mentality?

C'mon, this is a sport where people hold themselves onto a 1000 lb moving, jumping animal with nothing but leg strength and balance! We don't need poofier saddles, suede breeches, and sticky stuff to ride better, we just need to get in shape! Maybe then some of our riders might feel more confident (rightfully so) about jumping in the higher divisions?

[This message was edited by Tiramit on Jun. 04, 2003 at 03:23 PM.]

[ise@ssl]

AnneFS you are right about the really nasty and mean comments made by GM about other than borderline anorexic bodies on women of any age. For years it was in those critiques in PH and I often wondered why anyone would bother to send in a photo if they didn't have pencil thighs.

How a person is built can influence their ability to present a certain look. And sadly I feel that GM's comments in the past spilled into the judging world. I KNOW there have been posts on many BB's about trainers/judges, etc. making comments like "well they would have ribboned if they'd loose some weight". As though that should even count in the judging.

I also wish people would get off the concept that skinny people are always healthy. In fact Osteoperosis is becoming an increasingly serious problem among young women who are starving themselves to have an unrealistic body type. In fact bone scans on young women in their early 20's are evidencing bones that one would expect to see in menopausal women. There is also a problem with lack of calcium because some children are drinking soda from an early age and consuming extreme levels of caffeine which strips calcium from the body.

I suppose people like GM and the River Rats (as I call Joan and Melissa) don't really see the cause and effect of their constant tirade on anyone built normally. (the average women in the US wears a size 14). Yes I know obesity is on the rise but for many young people I feel they just "give up" about trying to be a stick figure and unfortunately go to the other extreme.

Maybe someone else can remember but I'm certain GM made the comment in an article that members of his family were overweight and he has been overly focused on being thin his whole life. Does anyone else remember this?

At any rate there are people who will not WALK around a show grounds or carry anything. All beneficial to being fit but will jump in a golf cart to go a few feet!! Also many riders are just riders - they don't muck or work around the stables and some don't even groom their own horses!!! Do about 10+ stalls a day and you'll keep fit.

[slc2]

alot of the posts make it sound as if being thin is always wrong too. but it is possible to be at a moderate, healthy weight, be strong, athletic and attractive too.

[ise@ssl]

Well SLC it depends on your definition of "healthy weight". People have different bone structures, builds, muscle mass etc. Ever see proessional women athletes such as tennis players, basketball players, etc. up close - they are NOT THIN.

We've created such an inrealistic "ideal" physique for women that we now have forced people into starving, barfing to have a boy body with boobs to the other extreme of grossly overweight Rubenesque bodies. Perhaps the marketing has worked too well and we've all been brainwashed.

Ever notice that the off the rack boots were apparantely designed for people with no calves?? Well if you ride alot you DO have calf muscles and not stick legs. Seems the people who make boots have finally GOT IT - and now offer different calf widths that are more realistic for athletic builds. Even in clothes it's the same - with stretch added to jackets, etc. When you work with horses you build up your arms - well you can't ride when the armholes on the jacket or shirt are so small they cut off the circulation to your arms!!!

Oh yes ballerinas and gymnast are skinny and strong but we know the truth behind the anorexia and bulemia in those two activities. Plus it makes me sick to see some of the students of the "great ones" who are riding and their size "2" britches are hanging off them. And they can barely pull the horses up and have to stand in the irons all the time because they have no butt!

They now say children as young as 5 are refusing to eat because they don't want to be fat!! Where are they hearing this?

And as far as our male counterparts - well the ones that make the nastiest comments about women's weight are the ones that don't ring my bell. And in many cases being female I don't ring theirs!!

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
There is also a problem with lack of calcium because some children are drinking soda from an early age and consuming extreme levels of caffeine which strips calcium from the body.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I believe they think it's the phosphoric acid, not the caffeine. It messes up the Ca/P balance. So decaf doesn't get you off the hook.

I think the emphasis has to be on fitness, not on size, inches, or pounds. Can you ride x minutes without stirrups? Can you climb x stairs?

After my daughter was born, I was very sick and weak for months due to a horrible reaction to an antibiotic. When I got back on my horse, I had big confidence issues because I knew if she tried anything that I did not have the strength or stamina to ride through the problem. I used sticky breeches and did what I could to ride in safe situations.

It was horrible. I had never been afraid to ride like I was then. And I was terrified that I'd never get my confidence back. After that experience, I think many riders with fear issues would benefit from fitness training.

Now I am fitter than ever, mostly because I have my own wriggly free weight that tends to accompany me everywhere. Walking/hiking with a 20 lb pack is a great way to get fit.

[I had my daughter at REI recently. Someone asked me: "Does your daughter like hiking?" I thought for a moment and said, "She likes it best when MOMMY hikes and she supervises from the backpack."]

[shayne]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rileyt:

Now I really do sound like an old fart. Would you believe I'm not even 30?
================================================
Yes. Wisdom comes with age.

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shayne:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rileyt:

Now I really do sound like an old fart. Would you believe I'm not even 30?
================================================
Yes. Wisdom comes with age.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that was pretty harsh. And you're how old? Not that it matters because I happen to think riley is right on for the most part and some "older" members who post here aren't wise but loons.


************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

So would you all consider me unheathly? I am extremely fit, and have muscle tone as well. I do an hour of cardio at least 4 times a week, and weights twice. I watch what I eat, I am 5'5" and I weight 116 lbs. I also wear a size 0 or 2. What's wrong with that? I'm healthy, I eat right and workout a lot. I'm also in shape.

I agree that sometimes posts make it seem like being skinny is bad too! I mean its hard in this society for anyone to win. You are either too skinny with no muscle, too fat with no muscle, not skinny enough or not fit enough. How about someone like me who is skinny and actually HAS muscle - where do we fit? Cause I gaurantee you that people will still say I'm too skinny. And as far as I'm concerned, if I'm eating healthy and working out there is no such thing as too skinny. I work hard for it and I'm NOT starving so what's the big deal? (seriously I'm not trying to start a war, I'm just trying to give the POV from us skinny people).

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

[MissingInAction]

This doesn't really have to do with horses, per say, but when I was watching American Idol(yes, I like that show), my friend and I noticed that the one judge, Simon, told a bunch of girls, that weren't even big, to lose weight, while the winner, who WAS a man, was probably way over 200 lbs. It's not the weight that bothered me, but the fact that it's okay for a man to be overweight and a girl has to be perfect weight.

Everyone on this board so far has said that the trainer or whoever told a girl to lose weight. Does this apply to men also?

[ise@ssl]

Clemson you sound healthy and knowledgeable so I'm sure you know that females MUST have a certain level of fat in their body to have a normal menstrual cycle. It will stop if your body fat level drops below a certain point - so I have to believe nature has set some limits!!

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

very good point Custom. I think that stereotype is the men must be big to protect us thing. And while I'm certainly not saying it's right, I have a feeling that is where the, it's okay for men to be large but not women idea comes from.

Although, in riding I have certainly seen many people cringe if a large man gets on a horse and doesn't know how to carry himself without slamming around. I agree with the opinion that if a heavier person is able to carry themselves on top of a horse with grace and style and be balanced and not interefere with the horses performance than what's the problem? Cause I have seen many a stick person who doesnt know what they are doing interfere with a horses performance and it has NOTHING To do with weight!

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Clemson you sound healthy and knowledgeable so I'm sure you know that females MUST have a certain level of fat in their body to have a normal menstrual cycle. It will stop if your body fat level drops below a certain point - so I have to believe nature has set some limits!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny that you say that because the current BC pill I am taking, cycles me through every three months, so I'm not normal anyway!! However, to the best of my knowledge, I have certainly never had a problem with my bodily functions yet as a result of my size.

- - - - - -
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." ~ George Bernard Shaw

[lilblackhorse]

You bring up a good point, the old double standard thing for weight. As far as I am concerned, Rueben is a walking ad for a heart attack, at what, 23 years old? Not the picture of health, that's for sure.

I've always been thin, but I am getting FIT now again, and I feel great. I don't have a problem with athletes who are bigger, but fit and in shape. It's the excuse thing that bothers me.

Just like the folks who say it's too hard to trot for 5 minutes with no irons are the same ones who find it too hard to cook a simple, low fat, low calorie meal instead of having a Big Mac....or going to a gym and getting their butts moving.

I've always viewed my riding as a passion-it wasn't something I did half assed. I work hard, and I have to be fit to do it. I don't think it's fair to expect our animals to be fit, when the riders need a golf cart to get a few hundred yards away instead of walking.

Elippses Users Clique........Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group, Pony Club (Graduate) Clique


"And how's that working for ya?" Dr. Phil

[mwalshe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
Ever see proessional women athletes such as tennis players, basketball players, etc. up close - they are NOT THIN. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But they are LEAN! And you can tell a big lean person from a flabby person. Face it, most people in this country are overweight and out of shape. I am out of shape, but not overweight, and I accept responsibility for that b/c I haven't been getting enough exercise lately. i'm not blaming the media, the restaurants, magazines etc. I blame too much laying around and eating chocolate and not enough exercise this winter.

My name is Maggymay, I am out of shape and it is my own stinking fault

Oh and Simon didn't like Reuben's image on American Idol either.

[shadytrake]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But they are LEAN! And you can tell a big lean person from a flabby person. Face it, most people in this country are overweight and out of shape. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VERY TRUE.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Just like the folks who say it's too hard to trot for 5 minutes with no irons are the same ones who find it too hard to cook a simple, low fat, low calorie meal instead of having a Big Mac....or going to a gym and getting their butts moving. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, the guilt trip is going. I read this post after getting back from an agonizing workout. My PT punished me for not doing my run by making me do circuit training interlaced with sprints! After that, I took my aching muscles to the grocery store and re-stocked the fridge with nutritional food. No more fast food for me.

If I could just break that 149 mark . I've been stuck there for 2 months.

I'm founding a new Clique (Founder of the Goodbye Fat, Hello Muscle Clique)

"If Noah had been truly wise, he would have swatted those two flies."-Helen Castle

Proud member of the Clean Horse, Dirty House Clique!

[McLeanHunterRider]

I just have to add my two cents in- this is a really interesting thread:

My former trainer used to make me go for a long time trotting in two point. The only "rest" I might get was when he told me to walk and change directions to do it again. Afterwards, we would canter a lot and then finally jump. His lessons were very hard on me, physically, However, I enjoyed the exercise. It was good having someone to force me to move my lazy butt around. I truly dislike this current trend with trainers being softies on their students. That's what trainers are supposed to do- they're supposed to help you improve your riding and also challenge you.

Not to say that this trend of being softies is only in riding. Quite the opposite- it's being seen everywhere as well. In addition, the recent obiesity rates have also been sky-high, which might be a reason for this softening up...