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Horse sale gone wrong...Insight please!

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  • #41
    Originally posted by IronwoodFarm View Post
    However, I do understand the agent's position after many years of selling. There is a sports medicine practice in my area that I will npt allow to do a PPE on my horses. I've had a couple experiences where they have made statements about my horses that were outrageous and just plain wrong. I'll pass on a sale if they are involved.
    This!

    OP I think you acted very emotionally during the purchase, you need to decide if you're just buying the horse or if you need to like the seller too ... sounds like both are important to you, which is fine, but expect a longer search then

    I bought a nice young horse despite seller antics, horse gets better every year.

    Comment


    • #42
      Someone may have already hit upon this but maybe this had to do more with your vet choice and their extensive PPE form then them wanting to hide something. Locally here we only have about 4 equine vets, and when the time comes to sell my boy - the rule will be that they can use 3 out of the 4 or one from out of town but there is one I will not allow to even water my horse if it was dying of thirst. As I'm sure she would do that wrong and kill it. Her reputation is Dr. Death to all those that have used her and then left her. There are still those that continue to drink her koolaid. Perhaps they have had issue's or similiar opinions of the vet. Not saying you have to use theirs - and probably shouldn't but perhaps you could have asked what about the vet or PPE did they not like and then come to a negotiation on that.

      As someone mentioned maybe it was the sedation they were concerned about. This could have easily been dealt with through a "trail period" in which you could have purchased him and then had the more thorough exam done. If the horse died while under sedation - your risk not theirs. If all went well under sedation, but he failed the soundness exam / xrays then you could have had that as a reason for return.

      I agree with a number of the posters, sounds like you got too emotional on this, and should have treated it like any other business transaction. Take what people are giving you advise here for your next purchase.

      Comment


      • #43
        Those who mentioned the Veterinarian chosen may be the problem, rather than the PPE itself made good points. OP should remember that there is no such thing as a perfect horse and no such thing as a completely sound horse. If there actually were such a thing, said horsie certainly could become unsound at the drop of a hat, just because that is what sometimes happens in life.
        Jeanie
        RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

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        • #44
          What is the vet doing in a PPE that requires sedation? I'm assuming the soundness exam is done before sedation?

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Calvincrowe View Post
            The seller(s) are either using the PPE as an excuse to not sell to this OP/buyer for whatever reason, or the PPE/vet/vet record sheet made them very nervous for some reason.

            A friend just sold her horse a couple of weeks ago--and the buyer also presented a "horse medical record" document for her to fill out with such crazy things as: vaccination and worming records, previous medical history (injuries, surgeries, colics), when he was gelded, what he'd done previously (raced, jumped, etc.) ...things like that. Well known and respected vet clinic in our area, and this seems to be the norm for most vets doing PPEs in the area now. Friend had no issue filling it out, as all the issues would (you'd think!) come out in the PPE. I don't think this medical history sheet would ever be a deal breaker for me if I were a seller. It seems like something the PPE vet would like to glance at before examining a strange horse, sort of a baseline.

            OP--glad you walked away. Sounds like it wasn't meant to be, and you made a good decision since I think there was something hinky going on. Either they didn't like you as a buyer, had another buyer on the hook, or were afraid of the truth the PPE would reveal. I refuse to buy if the seller is the one telling me which vet I can or cannot use for a PPE. Not right.
            Yes, and the part about them telling the OP that she can't use that vet because they have used that vet prior...nice of them to be aware of that professional ethic, but it smells bad when that vet has no record of having been used by them, and it's really the vet's job to be upholding the ethics of their profession.
            America dialed 911. Donald Trump answered the phone.

            Stop pumping money into colleges and start getting ready to earn money in the projected tradesman shortage of 2024. Make Trades Great Again!

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            • #46
              OP, I think you dodged a bullet.

              I think a broken hand hence not being able to ride him is a perfectly good reason to hold off on a sale. It's like having a broken foot and not being able to test drive the car!

              And maybe they have good reason to not like the vibe they were getting with the extensive PPE.

              Doesn't matter if it was a high dollar horse: it was up for a high performance job.
              “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

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              • #47
                I think if you have a rational horse seller, a reasonably healthy horse, and an interest in selling the horse to this buyer, generally you will not get that type of reaction to the PPE form. If the issue is with sedation or pulling the shoes (rational objections!), generally the seller would say no to that portion of the PPE. The seller's motivations are not apparent to us mere mortals, but they could be any. Obviously this raises serious red flags and would cause me to walk away as a buyer.

                Now that the OP has walked away, the seller may come back at some point and the horse may be for sale again. If he's that nice, if the seller approves the PPE, and the vet of choice finds no issues, I would have no issue buying. After all, you're buying the horse, not a lifetime with the seller. As someone stated above, not everybody in the horse business is a rational businessperson by any means.

                But, yes, my gut pretty much would tell me exactly what the OP's gut is telling her.
                Born under a rock and owned by beasts!

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Macimage View Post
                  I am sorry, but I think you caused a bit of this yourself. If I found the 'perfect' horse, a broken hand would not stop me from scheduling a PPE immediately and paying for the horse in full subject to the PPE.

                  Also, your post states that the vet wanted permission to sedate the horse. I would not allow that and I wonder how intrusive the PPE form really is.

                  I would agree to a PPE by the buyer's vet and I would release all medical records but there is a limit to what I would agree to with a horse priced say less that $10K. If the horse is over $100K, they can request quite a bit more in terms of the PPE. It sounds as though the entire deal went south when the seller got the PPE request. It may have been just too much.

                  I also have no problem with seller's continuing to show the horse to prospective buyers until someone pays for the horse in full. Prospective buyers (on all types of items) do not follow through will sales all the time despite what they may say.

                  Just another perspective.
                  I have found it to be common for vets to sedate for x-rays if the horse won't stand still enough or stay stepped up on the plate long enough. Nothing suspicious or intrusive there.
                  America dialed 911. Donald Trump answered the phone.

                  Stop pumping money into colleges and start getting ready to earn money in the projected tradesman shortage of 2024. Make Trades Great Again!

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                  • #49
                    This was my question, too. I've done several extensive PPEs and none of them required sedation.

                    I've never had anyone object to my choice of vet but if I really wanted a horse, I'd probably compromise on that provided I had a choice of vets.

                    Originally posted by js View Post
                    What is the vet doing in a PPE that requires sedation? I'm assuming the soundness exam is done before sedation?
                    Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                    EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by RubyTuesday View Post
                      I have found it to be common for vets to sedate for x-rays if the horse won't stand still enough or stay stepped up on the plate long enough. Nothing suspicious or intrusive there.
                      See, you learn something every day. I never thought of that.

                      As I stated, I would not want to give permission to sedate any of my horses, but then it never occurred to me that one of them would be so poorly behaved as to not stand still when I asked them to.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by RubyTuesday View Post
                        I have found it to be common for vets to sedate for x-rays if the horse won't stand still enough or stay stepped up on the plate long enough. Nothing suspicious or intrusive there.
                        I agree that may just be part of their standard form, permission for this or that - if necessary - which normally would not be for a PPE.

                        I guess the seller could agree to what it wants and strike what it considers too intrusive for a standard PPE on a horse without known problems.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by BEARCAT View Post
                          Another thought is that the sporthorse vet you want to (rightly so) use probably has a reputation for being very thorough. If they find something and you decide to pass on the horse (which is not your intent but could happen), the seller would have a duty to disclose that issue to the next buyer if asked.
                          Well, if there was something serious found in the PPE (Wobbler's, for example) that would make the horse unsafe to try, then yes, I think the seller would have a moral obligation to either disclose that information, or get their own vet out to evaluate the horse and prove otherwise.

                          However, the findings between my vet and me are private, and not necessarily even to be disclosed to the seller. Just because the vet finds something doesn't mean the buyer won't buy the horse; and even if the horse "passes" the PPE doesn't mean the seller WILL buy the horse. My vet does not give a "pass" or "fail" - just discusses the findings (if any) with you to help you make a decision. I don't believe the seller has any obligation to disclose what MY vet found on the PPE to anyone else (if they even know). Because MY vet might be wrong.

                          As to the other issues discussed on this thread - my vet also has an extensive form that can be filled out for each horse, but they will still do a PPE without all of that information being disclosed by the seller. (E.g. the seller might say the horse has never colicked, but maybe it has? What about before they owned it, if they are not the 1st owner -- that's why MY vet will evaluate the horse to the best of his ability and we go from there.)

                          I think requiring the seller to offer up ALL the horse's vet records might be a little much for a PPE....but maybe it depends on the price point we are talking about. And if the sedation was mandatory, I might also say no thank you - but that seems like something that could have been negotiated/discussed. "No sedation will be used unless the horse refuses to stand for xrays or whatever."

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I'm with the seller on this one. The op sounds a bit flighty.

                            Macimage, hear, hear! I don't think I'd consider buying a horse that wouldn't stand still for xrays. I'm dealing with hoof and leg xrays both at the clinic and the barn there hasn't been one horse that we couldn't shoot without sedation. Even the horse with laminitis, and that poor guy was in pain. I'm sure it hurt to stand with one leg on the wood block.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                              At the risk of offending all amateurs ever...

                              This thread is a good example of why a lot of pros will only buy and sell through other pros.

                              Or, put another way, I think a lot of the issues encountered by the OP could have been avoided had she used an agent.

                              Not that amateurs are incapable of purchasing their own horses, just that to the single horse amateur, purchasing is generally an emotional decision, not a business transaction...
                              That may be, but then again, the OP might also have been out more money too or been set up with a horse that is not suitable. Agents are out to make a commission and/or fees on sales, or paid to look for prospects. Depending on the agreement between the buyer and their agent, this could be handled well or not well at all. There are real pros out there that keep the buyer's interests in mind and there are those who hang out a shingle and keep their own in mind. Personally, I think the OP is doing better on her own, at her own pace, even if it seems to some people that she is operating on something of a learning curve. Does she have the horse she wants yet? No...but then she also doesn't have one she doesn't want yet either.

                              As for the emotion...I'm not sure that is out of order, as it sounds like she may be planning to keep this horse around for a while, perhaps even into retirement. Maybe keep the emotion out of the transaction itself, but I think emotion needs to play into the decision for an amateur, because for many it simply isn't "just" a business transaction.
                              America dialed 911. Donald Trump answered the phone.

                              Stop pumping money into colleges and start getting ready to earn money in the projected tradesman shortage of 2024. Make Trades Great Again!

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                When the seller wants you to use a vet of there choosing, BIG RED FLAGS should be waving, one of the oldest tricks in the books. The fact you are unclear about these things means you should have an attorney assisiting you with your purchases. It will save you in the long run. Helps keep everything on the up and up. There isn't a person on this site that hasn't heard of someone getting screwed in this business.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #56
                                  For those that have stated I'm flighty or indecisive, let me be clear that the sellers were the ones who suggested that I wait after the first ride. Given my medical history they wanted to be sure it was a perfect match. I was scheduled to come back and ride the next day. So, I took their advice. I was prepared to buy the horse then and there. THEY pushed it off. There was another buyer but they had not asked for a right of refusal. I offered a deposit on the horse to hold him and they said no, not to worry about it. I had first dibs.

                                  The broken hand...same thing. Given they wanted to ensure the horse and I were a good match I made the call to wait. (Even though I was certain the match was great. But I felt pressured to ride him again after the first meeting. However, I do feel they had my best interests in mind.) I told them I am still interested in the horse, I want him but as they had said, they wanted me to ride him again. I told them that I would not hold up a sale if one came along while I was out from riding. If he was still for sale when I was able to get back on, great!

                                  So, he was still for sale. The only "flighty" think I did was want the PPE because I wasn't under the pressure of another buyer like I was the first day I rode him. I gave notice before I set up the PPE. I was told that's fine. I scheduled it and sent the form. It was standard things (vaccines, surgeries, behavior issues, history, the like). It was extensive, but it was information that should be provided anyway. I wasn't asking for every blood test he's ever had, who did what and when or anything outrageous. The sedation would have been for X-rays if he needed it. And I was going to X-ray just about everything I could. Why? Because I refuse to break a horse down. If he can't hold up to eventing I needed to know. So, while I did refuse the PPE at first when there was another buyer potentially that same day, that was the ONLY thing I changed my mind on. And it wasn't because I didn't want it, it was time related.

                                  And the emails were not angry emails. They simply explained the form, the fact I was disappointed that things were going the way they were and I would not buy the horse without the PPE from my vet. Period. I did mention the fact the other buyer was brought up and basically stated that I wanted the horse, I was surprised by the fact he was still being shown and that it made me uneasy. I almost felt pitted against this other person. The second email was sent after I had thought it over for some time and the sicking feeling in my gut was getting worse. Something made me feel that way, so I said no deal due to the owner not being forthcoming with information and the refusal to sign the papers. The response I go to that was that she wasn't going to sign them because she wasn't comfortable with it.

                                  So none of my emails were angry or spiteful. I was rational. I did push the PPE issue though and rightfully so.

                                  And for those who say I'm flighty, had it have gone my way the horse would have been purchased the day I rode him. They weren't worried about me as a buyer, I board at the other barn so I am not going to just take the horse and drop off the face of the Earth. They truly wanted to be helpful and ensure that he was going to be a good match for my medical situation. While to others it may appear impulsive, I know when a horse works for me, and he did. I'd tried so many and this was the first one that clicked and I was comfortable.

                                  And for the record, I've been in the horse business for years and been part of lots and lots of sales. Never my own horses, but places I have worked. I've never had something happen like this before, ever. I was truly shocked. Again, I have no issues with the barn or the employees. I was just very surprised and so disappointed about how it went down.

                                  Again, I appreciate all the advice and input and I will take it into consideration on my next venture. Hopefully I will find that perfect horse for me.

                                  And for the person who asked if it was a high dollar deal, it wasn't cheap but it wasn't a crazy amount of money either. I do think that in the future I'll wait a few months and go for a more expensive horse from a well known seller and hope to avoid all this.

                                  In the mean time I am going to take the money that was for the PPE and re xray my gelding to see what else we can do for him to get him more sound. I've done all I can but this will be another vet in the practice so we'll see if she offers anything different.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by ponypappy View Post
                                    When the seller wants you to use a vet of there choosing, BIG RED FLAGS should be waving, one of the oldest tricks in the books. The fact you are unclear about these things means you should have an attorney assisiting you with your purchases. It will save you in the long run. Helps keep everything on the up and up. There isn't a person on this site that hasn't heard of someone getting screwed in this business.
                                    I know this and disregarded the request and called my vet. So I need no attorney. I'm rather well versed in tactics like that. I worked for an attorney for almost 10 years. I'm not loving the fact this thread is making me look like a total idiot who knows nothing. I promise, this is not the case.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by SFrost View Post
                                      For those that have stated I'm flighty or indecisive, let me be clear that the sellers were the ones who suggested that I wait after the first ride. Given my medical history they wanted to be sure it was a perfect match. I was scheduled to come back and ride the next day. So, I took their advice. I was prepared to buy the horse then and there. THEY pushed it off. There was another buyer but they had not asked for a right of refusal. I offered a deposit on the horse to hold him and they said no, not to worry about it. I had first dibs.

                                      The broken hand...same thing. Given they wanted to ensure the horse and I were a good match I made the call to wait. (Even though I was certain the match was great. But I felt pressured to ride him again after the first meeting. However, I do feel they had my best interests in mind.) I told them I am still interested in the horse, I want him but as they had said, they wanted me to ride him again. I told them that I would not hold up a sale if one came along while I was out from riding. If he was still for sale when I was able to get back on, great!

                                      So, he was still for sale. The only "flighty" think I did was want the PPE because I wasn't under the pressure of another buyer like I was the first day I rode him. I gave notice before I set up the PPE. I was told that's fine. I scheduled it and sent the form. It was standard things (vaccines, surgeries, behavior issues, history, the like). It was extensive, but it was information that should be provided anyway. I wasn't asking for every blood test he's ever had, who did what and when or anything outrageous. The sedation would have been for X-rays if he needed it. And I was going to X-ray just about everything I could. Why? Because I refuse to break a horse down. If he can't hold up to eventing I needed to know. So, while I did refuse the PPE at first when there was another buyer potentially that same day, that was the ONLY thing I changed my mind on. And it wasn't because I didn't want it, it was time related.

                                      And the emails were not angry emails. They simply explained the form, the fact I was disappointed that things were going the way they were and I would not buy the horse without the PPE from my vet. Period. I did mention the fact the other buyer was brought up and basically stated that I wanted the horse, I was surprised by the fact he was still being shown and that it made me uneasy. I almost felt pitted against this other person. The second email was sent after I had thought it over for some time and the sicking feeling in my gut was getting worse. Something made me feel that way, so I said no deal due to the owner not being forthcoming with information and the refusal to sign the papers. The response I go to that was that she wasn't going to sign them because she wasn't comfortable with it.

                                      So none of my emails were angry or spiteful. I was rational. I did push the PPE issue though and rightfully so.

                                      And for those who say I'm flighty, had it have gone my way the horse would have been purchased the day I rode him. They weren't worried about me as a buyer, I board at the other barn so I am not going to just take the horse and drop off the face of the Earth. They truly wanted to be helpful and ensure that he was going to be a good match for my medical situation. While to others it may appear impulsive, I know when a horse works for me, and he did. I'd tried so many and this was the first one that clicked and I was comfortable.

                                      And for the record, I've been in the horse business for years and been part of lots and lots of sales. Never my own horses, but places I have worked. I've never had something happen like this before, ever. I was truly shocked. Again, I have no issues with the barn or the employees. I was just very surprised and so disappointed about how it went down.

                                      Again, I appreciate all the advice and input and I will take it into consideration on my next venture. Hopefully I will find that perfect horse for me.

                                      And for the person who asked if it was a high dollar deal, it wasn't cheap but it wasn't a crazy amount of money either. I do think that in the future I'll wait a few months and go for a more expensive horse from a well known seller and hope to avoid all this.

                                      In the mean time I am going to take the money that was for the PPE and re xray my gelding to see what else we can do for him to get him more sound. I've done all I can but this will be another vet in the practice so we'll see if she offers anything different.
                                      Originally posted by SFrost View Post
                                      I know this and disregarded the request and called my vet. So I need no attorney. I'm rather well versed in tactics like that. I worked for an attorney for almost 10 years. I'm not loving the fact this thread is making me look like a total idiot who knows nothing. I promise, this is not the case.
                                      Respectfully, not really sure why you posted this thread (Horse sale gone wrong...Insight please!) since you have all the answers to many of our points of view on what possibilly went wrong with your sale.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by SFrost View Post
                                        The only "flighty" think I did was want the PPE because I wasn't under the pressure of another buyer like I was the first day I rode him. I gave notice before I set up the PPE. I was told that's fine. I scheduled it and sent the form. It was standard things (vaccines, surgeries, behavior issues, history, the like). It was extensive, but it was information that should be provided anyway. I wasn't asking for every blood test he's ever had, who did what and when or anything outrageous. The sedation would have been for X-rays if he needed it.
                                        I don't think that is flighty. I was prepared to pay >$1000 in PPE expenses to include xrays for a horse priced at $3000 -- because I had just retired my mare and still own her. I can only handle so many unrideable horses!

                                        I think you were right to trust your gut. If the sellers really had an issue with, say, sedation....they could very easily have just mentioned it to you and seen whether the PPE could be done without it. Or they could have said "you know, we have had problems with your vet -- can you find another vet (not necessarily ours) to do the PPE?"

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by SFrost View Post
                                          I know this and disregarded the request and called my vet. So I need no attorney. I'm rather well versed in tactics like that. I worked for an attorney for almost 10 years. I'm not loving the fact this thread is making me look like a total idiot who knows nothing. I promise, this is not the case.
                                          Try not to get annoyed.
                                          Everyone is just bandying ideas around with what is known and what is guessed, right or not.
                                          No one really knows what went on.
                                          Some times, deals just go South and no one is left satisfied, but with more questions, like you are.

                                          I hope you got the feedback you wanted out of this anyway and that all learned more in the exchange.

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