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Horse sale gone wrong...Insight please!

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  • #21
    Another thought is that the sporthorse vet you want to (rightly so) use probably has a reputation for being very thorough. If they find something and you decide to pass on the horse (which is not your intent but could happen), the seller would have a duty to disclose that issue to the next buyer if asked. Not that many do but that would be the ethical thing to do.
    Seller showing the horse to others wouldn't bother me as long as it's approached as "sure, come take a look, we do have someone interested but if that falls through you'll be next on the list."
    "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

    Comment


    • #22
      A contract arises when there is offer, acceptance, and consideration. That last item can be money, but really only requires a promise for a promise. Oral contracts are as valid as written ones, just more difficult to prove.

      From the OPs first post I don't see a contract. There has not been a meeting of the minds. I see continuing negotiations. If the OP puts out money to arrange the PPE that's on her as the PPE is for her benefit. If you're talking real money on a horse then a comprehensive PPE is probably a good idea. But it's a good idea for the buyer, not necessarily the seller.

      As to the substance, a refusal to provide prior records and a reluctance to use the buyer's vet. (that being a sine qua non IMO) raises a whole line of "red flags." Perhaps there are reasons why these things are problematical (records lost, bad blood between the seller and the vet. selected for the PPE, inexperience of the vet. selected by buyer, etc.). But if anything like this exists a seller, if they are acting in good faith, should inform the buyer of the problem and seek a solution. If the seller "just says no" then I likely be in my car headed out before too long.

      Written contracts are Very Good Things. The writing is not the contract; it’s a memorial of the contract. We have it so that a third party can look at it and know what the parties agreed to on a specific date and time. IME, a huge percentage of equine business is done quite successfully “on a handshake.” It’s also been my experience (personally and professionally) if a person is not bound by their handshake they will likely not see themselves as bound by writing, either.

      My advice: walk away. The OP has already invested a huge amount of emotion and some amount dollars and right now has an “empty sack” to show for it. If the sellers are not communicating (and they appear to be very reticent from the totality of the story) then I don’t think I want to “shake hands” with them.

      The world is awash in good horses for sale. Putting up with nonsense from a seller is just not worth it.

      G.
      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

      Comment


      • #23
        OP, something similar happened to one of my friends. The seller was all good with a PPE up until the day of. Then she called claiming she had another buyer and needed the cash now if they still wanted the horse and no, she could not wait until after the PPE in a few hours. My friend said thanks but no thanks and walked. We found out later that there were a few major things wrong with the horse that would have very much limited what my friend could do with him.

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        • #24
          On the other hand, maybe the seller has a very nice horse and some interest in him.

          This one buyer seems very indecisive, with an injury like a broken hand breaks the deal, then later decides it is ok and comes asking again, with many terms.

          The seller should have accepted a down payment up front if it meant to have a commitment with this buyer, that was a first questionable decision by the seller.
          That did show them they had a serious buyer and, if interested, should have honored that by accepting that down payment.

          I think that maybe both parties have been like wrestlers circling around, not quite sure what move to make, fainting here and there a bit, then not quite engaging.

          As a seller, if you don't want to trade with one buyer, just say so and move on.
          As a buyer, if you feel too many questions coming up, decide if they are a deal breaker and forget the horse.
          Don't obsess and keep trying to make this work, unless you really feel that is the one and only for you.

          Sounds like right now, the seller is not wanting to commit to the PPE, so why would the buyer even think to keep looking at that horse, when such basic sale standards are not met?

          If they can't sell him, after a while, they may contact the buyer again and agree to the PPE.

          Comment


          • #25
            The SECOND I recieved the information that prior vet records were not to be made available, I'd walk. Fast. All the other information is irrelevant.

            Comment


            • #26
              Since the PPE document was the sticking point, I'd be curious to see exactly what that document says. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a vet other than my own doing certain things. Without knowing what the document says it's hard to form an opinion about whether or not I'd be okay with it.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by gumshoe View Post
                Since the PPE document was the sticking point, I'd be curious to see exactly what that document says. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a vet other than my own doing certain things. Without knowing what the document says it's hard to form an opinion about whether or not I'd be okay with it.
                That too, there are vets and there are vets and there are PPE's and not all are the same.

                The OP knows this vet and is comfortable with it, but to the seller, that seems to be an unknown, maybe known but not acceptable, as Guilherme suggested?

                Comment


                • #28
                  The seller(s) are either using the PPE as an excuse to not sell to this OP/buyer for whatever reason, or the PPE/vet/vet record sheet made them very nervous for some reason.

                  A friend just sold her horse a couple of weeks ago--and the buyer also presented a "horse medical record" document for her to fill out with such crazy things as: vaccination and worming records, previous medical history (injuries, surgeries, colics), when he was gelded, what he'd done previously (raced, jumped, etc.) ...things like that. Well known and respected vet clinic in our area, and this seems to be the norm for most vets doing PPEs in the area now. Friend had no issue filling it out, as all the issues would (you'd think!) come out in the PPE. I don't think this medical history sheet would ever be a deal breaker for me if I were a seller. It seems like something the PPE vet would like to glance at before examining a strange horse, sort of a baseline.

                  OP--glad you walked away. Sounds like it wasn't meant to be, and you made a good decision since I think there was something hinky going on. Either they didn't like you as a buyer, had another buyer on the hook, or were afraid of the truth the PPE would reveal. I refuse to buy if the seller is the one telling me which vet I can or cannot use for a PPE. Not right.
                  Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

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                  • #29
                    ""horse medical record" document for her to fill out with such crazy things as: vaccination and worming records, previous medical history (injuries, surgeries, colics), when he was gelded, what he'd done previously (raced, jumped, etc.) ...things like that."

                    Those don't seem crazy at all to me...?

                    As a seller I would willingly disclose these and as a buyer I would want to know and would ask for similar records (usually just verbally.)
                    "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Add me to the list of those who think that you created your own issues, OP.

                      While your circumstances may justify everything that happened, you probably came off as incredibly indecisive to the seller. First you're so interested you want to buy on the spot, then your hand is broken and you aren't interested anymore, then you are again, but only with PPE, then only with the most intrusive PPE in the world with only "your" vet...

                      Try to look at this from the seller's perspective...

                      And as far as medical records and vet choice for PPE goes, that's a tough one from both sides.

                      As a buyer, I can understand the desire to know anything and everything about a prospect.

                      As a seller, I can understand a reluctance to release my horse's medical records to every potential buyer that may wander by, and particularly to a buyer that has already proven a little wishy-washy on the actual purchase. I don't need everybody in the horse world knowing my business (and my horse's medical records are my business), so they would only be released to a buyer I thought was deadly serious about actually buying. Otherwise, only issues that might effect future performance would be disclosed.

                      As far as vets and PPEs go, I can see the seller's point. This is your vet, not their's - they don't know if said vet is reasonable or not. If I'm selling a horse, the last thing I need is for it to "fail" a PPE because of an overzealous vet who can't read an x-ray properly. Or who thinks that the horse is too "frisky" for the potential buyer and "fails" the horse based on that - I've seen this happen. Seriously.

                      Usually, it's best to have a list of several "neutral" vets to choose from and find one you can both agree on.

                      So, OP, while I don't think you necessarily did anything "wrong", I don't think you realize how your actions came across to the seller. The good news is, there are plenty of horses out there - I'm sure you'll find the one for you.
                      "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                      -George Morris

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        That tends to make a purchaser suspicious that there would have been a problem found on PPE.

                        Smile, and save your money!
                        Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                        Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

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                        • #32
                          I wouldn't automatically assume that the seller's reluctance to sign that kind of extensive PPE form indicates a potential problem with the horse. If the seller had never encountered a form like that, it might have seemed very intrusive, and she might not have understood that she could decline certain options.

                          So, to assess the seller's reaction accurately requires knowing, for example, whether the seller is an owner who perhaps has sold one or two horses in her lifetime, or is she a savvy owner-seller who regularly buys and sells her mounts?

                          I'm not suggesting that there was anything wrong with the PPE form, just that it may have spooked the seller; she perhaps may have thought that if she signed such a form, she would be signing up for trouble she didn't need, particularly if she had other potential buyers.
                          "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Was this a high dollar horse? Just curious. I've opted to never do a PPE, but I also haven't bought any expensive horses either. I have asked medical history and asked if they would allow me to talk to their vet but that's as far as I have gone. If this was the perfect horse and you didn't have any reason to suspect any issues and the cost of the horse isn't huge then I would have taken the risk and bought. It's difficult enough to find that one horse that is perfect, if you weren't investing a great deal I would have just went with the horse. I realize you are probably reluctant because you already own a lame horse but passing a PPE doesn't guarantee the horse won't go lame or colic a week after you buy it. There are always risks. You really didn't allow time enough for the sellers to work with you on this. Three rapid fire emails and expecting all to be perfect in a quick response wasn't fair to yourself or the sellers. If the horse was the perfect one you should have gone personally over to talk to the sellers and see how you could resolve the issue and move forward with the PPE and sale.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Just think, a simple conversation or two could have explained the PPE form--the seller needed to ask the buyer some questions or call the vet's office. I think there's more to the seller's story in her reluctance to use the buyer's vet (red flag for me). Sure, I think the OP needed to be less reactive with the email barrage, but as outsiders looking in with limited information provided, I think the buyer had the right to use her own vet, and the seller was hiding something, even if it is just a personal feeling that the buyer was not the right fit. Honest, open discussions seem to not exist in the horse world...like everywhere else!
                              Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I have been a buyer and seller many times. Mostly these days I am a seller.

                                Most vets do not require an extensive information sheet and release prior to the PPE. I think I ran into it once before. I don't see it a big deal as I always release prior veterinary records and disclose what know about the horse's health anyway. Since I'm present for the vetting, I see it as a more formalized way of doing the status quo. I see it mostly as CYA document for the vet.

                                That being said, the seller may not feel comfortable signing the document. There would be HR reason or it could be nothing. An obvious solution would be to use another vet. I appreciate that the OP thinks that her vet is the BEST ever, but honestly, a basic PPE can be done by many vets and x-rays can be sent to your vet by the PPE vet. I typically give buyers at least 48 hours after a PPE to decide.

                                Many years ago I wanted to buy a mare, but the agent hated my PPE vet selection. Friends told me to walk away. I decided to use another vet. The mare had good PPE and I bought her. She is now 23 and retired on my farm. I am glad I decided to put the initial issue aside because I bought a marvelous mare who has given me years of pleasure.

                                However, I do understand the agent's position after many years of selling. There is a sports medicine practice in my area that I will not allow to do a PPE on my horses. I've had a couple experiences where they have made statements about my horses that were outrageous and just plain wrong. I'll pass on a sale if they are involved.

                                I think most people have made the point about verbal contracts, and I always prefer a written contract. Just this year I have had two prospective buyers make verbal deals only to change them radically when given a written contract that reflected our deal. I walked away from both sales. It wasn't worth it to me to bother with our verbal contract.
                                Last edited by IronwoodFarm; Nov. 24, 2013, 01:57 PM.
                                Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
                                http://www.ironwood-farm.com

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by SFrost View Post
                                  Just got an email stating the owner wasnt comfortable signing the ppe paperwork and so the ppe would have not been able to be done by my vet of choice. That pretty much made me feel like my feelings were justified and the papers would have never been signed. I would not have used another vet either.
                                  Well, then I guess they'll be paying board on this horse for a while longer. I wouldn't compromise my terms either on this.
                                  America dialed 911. Donald Trump answered the phone.

                                  Stop pumping money into colleges and start getting ready to earn money in the projected tradesman shortage of 2024. Make Trades Great Again!

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                                  • #37
                                    I am sorry, but I think you caused a bit of this yourself. If I found the 'perfect' horse, a broken hand would not stop me from scheduling a PPE immediately and paying for the horse in full subject to the PPE.

                                    Also, your post states that the vet wanted permission to sedate the horse. I would not allow that and I wonder how intrusive the PPE form really is.

                                    I would agree to a PPE by the buyer's vet and I would release all medical records but there is a limit to what I would agree to with a horse priced say less that $10K. If the horse is over $100K, they can request quite a bit more in terms of the PPE. It sounds as though the entire deal went south when the seller got the PPE request. It may have been just too much.

                                    I also have no problem with seller's continuing to show the horse to prospective buyers until someone pays for the horse in full. Prospective buyers (on all types of items) do not follow through will sales all the time despite what they may say.

                                    Just another perspective.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      At the risk of offending all amateurs ever...

                                      This thread is a good example of why a lot of pros will only buy and sell through other pros.

                                      Or, put another way, I think a lot of the issues encountered by the OP could have been avoided had she used an agent.

                                      Not that amateurs are incapable of purchasing their own horses, just that to the single horse amateur, purchasing is generally an emotional decision, not a business transaction...
                                      "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                                      -George Morris

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by BEARCAT View Post
                                        ""horse medical record" document for her to fill out with such crazy things as: vaccination and worming records, previous medical history (injuries, surgeries, colics), when he was gelded, what he'd done previously (raced, jumped, etc.) ...things like that."

                                        Those don't seem crazy at all to me...?

                                        As a seller I would willingly disclose these and as a buyer I would want to know and would ask for similar records (usually just verbally.)
                                        I just sold a horse this week and a copy of his vet records went with him, that was his "wellness" exams and which vaccines, teeth floating, sheath cleaning and deworming.
                                        There is the vets name and number and he has permission to answer any questions about the horse, how he behaved at the clinic, stellar patient and any other the buyer may want to know.

                                        I don't see why providing vet records ought to be a sticking point.

                                        Now, a vet exam by an unknown vet, that you never know what will come out of it?
                                        I never had a horse not pass for the intended purpose, if buying or selling, but if someone had some such experiences with a vet they didn't care for, that could be why they hesitate there.

                                        They better get over it and start adding that to what most serious buyers today require.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          If you still want him, pay a refundable, held in escrow deposit, have a contract written up that specifies that you will commit to buying upon completion of successful PPE. That contract needs verbiage requiring the seller to cooperate with having the PPE done. You probably will need an attorney's help, although there surely are such contract examples to be found online. Good luck and keep us posted.
                                          ETA that contract also should specify that if the PPE does not indicate the horse is suitable to your needs, the deposit is refunded to you. Personally, my opinion is that if the horse really was as delightful to ride as you said, you just should buy the horse and enjoy him. If he cannot do what you plan to do with him competitively, just CHANGE your PLANs to be just enjoying the ride (duh).
                                          Last edited by sdlbredfan; Nov. 24, 2013, 12:37 PM. Reason: typos and clarity
                                          Jeanie
                                          RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

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