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Letter in this weeks COTH (4/11)

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  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    But when we have to wait 2 1/2 hours for seven horses to goin a junior/amateur-owner hunter classic because some professional is giving a clinic to some poor yahoo at the food stand-come on.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm still trying to get the image of George Morris instructing some hapless bystander on the finer points of eating a hot dog out of my head.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm still trying to get the image of George Morris instructing some hapless bystander on the finer points of eating a hot dog out of my head. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      It's important to remember that if your grip on the hot dog is weak, you should do lots of work without stirrups to strengthen...

      _________________________________

      ** Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious. **

      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Applesauce:
        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blue Devil:
        Lol...was just looking at the USAE current 2003 points. Lila's in 3rd nationally in A/O jumper points with her horse "Hardware" having earned $10,678 since Dec. 1.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        So?

        Goody for her.

        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


        WELL...part of Lila's argument is the cost of doing hunters (compared to doing jumpers for her). I think the fact that she has earned over $10,000 with one horse since December 1st is somewhat significant, not in giving validity to her points or her riding, but that for her, the economics of riding are much different I feel than the Average Joe.

        formerly Emily A My karma ran over your dogma.

        Comment


        • I think the above quote was a wee bit misunderstood!

          Personally, if she doesn't like it, then she should sit down with an accountant who deals with horse show finances and discover where her winnings actually come from.

          Since she claims that hunters are an unpublicized and unpopular division, what would separating and ostracizing the hunter division do? What would this result in?

          Bottom line: If she had a point, she didn't state it very well, as a matter of fact, she stated it (it's coming across this way to me, regardless of what others believe) in a very rude and snotty matter. That's enough to irritate people. People who pay for hunter entries. Individuals who want to come to a show.

          I'm not insinuating that off-the-wall opinions should disappear, but don't you think it's better to create and garner an interest in a divison, then to toss it aside?

          ~~~~!Share the LOFF!~~~~
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          Comment


          • Very nice post Moesha!

            For may part, I love the hunters and probably always will. When done right, they're just so beautiful!

            But watching jumpers is sure a lot of fun! I love seeing someone try an approach I never would have thought of. Some of those tight turns take my breath away to see how balanced and agile the pair are! And when they get to the big heights, it's amazing to see horses use so much power to fly over those fences!

            I'd hate to see hunters and jumpers split--if only for the selfish reason that once I'm done with my hunter classes, I love to walk over to the jumper ring and see what they're doing!

            Comment


            • Am I missing something? If they did the H/J split: I would think that just because the organization that governs hunters and the organization that governs jumpers are separate would not necessarily mean separate shows. Couldn't the show just be recognized by both the hunter organization and the jumper organization much the way shows now are recognized by USEq and many state associations (i.e. VHSA, MHSA)?

              Comment


              • Alas, Werty, under that scenario, she'd still have to wait.

                ***Dear Easter Bunny: All I really want in my goody basket is FLYING LEAD CHANGES!!***
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                Comment


                • This was a pretty interesting thread for me to read . This lady sure knows how to get a discussion going .

                  No, we don't have hunters, and we do just fine without them. We do have a style class at the lowest level of jumpers (3'3), but most people who are serious about the jumpers skip that one anyway, and start at 3'6. I think one of the main differences between our systems, is that in our system you HAVE to move up a level after you've reached a number of points (30= 15 clear rounds). So you don't have people who stay at the same level for ages.

                  I imagine lower level hunters being like lower level dressage. It might be interesting to some, but it puts me personally sound asleep . But I do like watching the Grand Prix level dressage riders.

                  Comment


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by easyjumper1:
                    I imagine lower level hunters being like lower level dressage. It might be interesting to some, but it puts me personally sound asleep . But I do like watching the Grand Prix level dressage riders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    I've been staying out of this one, but easyjumper's comment got me thinking. I think the same can be said about jumpers too. Personally, I ride jumpers. However, I appreciate the style and difficulty of putting in a perfect hunter round. That being said, I don't watch the low, unrated hunter divisions, because I find it boring an repetitive. I will, however, watch the upper level hunters to catch glimpses of those elusive, well-ridden courses.

                    BUT, the lower level jumpers are just as boring to me (yes, even the classes I ride in). I am much more likely to be watching the bigger jumpers. It comes down to where the good rides will be. I enjoy watching well-ridden courses at the upper levels, in both hunters and jumpers.

                    _________________________________

                    ** Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious. **

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blue Devil:
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Applesauce:
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blue Devil:
                      Lol...was just looking at the USAE current 2003 points. Lila's in 3rd nationally in A/O jumper points with her horse "Hardware" having earned $10,678 since Dec. 1.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      So?

                      Goody for her.

                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


                      WELL...part of Lila's argument is the cost of doing hunters (compared to doing jumpers for her). I think the fact that she has earned over $10,000 with one horse since December 1st is somewhat significant, not in giving validity to her points or her riding, but that for her, the economics of riding are much different I feel than the Average Joe.

                      _ formerly Emily A_ _My karma ran over your dogma._
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      Ok, so she won over $10K on one horse since December. Now how much did she spend in order to win that amount of money? I am hoping she's ahead of the game cause that would then help her point about jumpers being more economical than hunters, but you never know. Now if she spent like $20K to make the $10K, that's not so economical anymore.

                      NOT that I care to know what she spends on horses or showing, I am simply trying to explain myself.
                      "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

                      Comment


                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catalina:
                        Finally got my COTH and read the letter. At first I was really put off by her tone and attitude, but then I realized that everyone is entitled to an opinion and just because I don't agree with hers doesn't make her opinion any more wrong or right. Just different than mine.
                        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        If Ms. Lavigne's letter had adopted Catalina's attitude, I wouldn't have been quite so off-put by it. But it didn't . . .

                        LordHelpus summed it up so well in her post that said something to the effect that just because it is a different point of view doesn't make it an inferior one, but that's a possibility the letter doesn't seem to acknowledge. Lila could have expressed her points in a more compelling manner.

                        As for the comments made in a few posts re: whether or not people could do their course without their trainer ringside being part of the issue on trainer conflicts holding up the hunter ring, I think that misses part of the point. I am an adult, and am certainly capable of putting in my rounds without my trainer standing there, but that in my mind defeats a large part of the purpose of having a trainer. I want educated feedback, and in my opinion, having my trainer ringside is the best way to get that feedback. A good/organized trainer can prevent it from causing too much of a delay if they try.

                        Also, if you separated hunter shows from jumper shows, where would you put the Eq.? Half the Eq. girls at my barn do jumpers, and half do hunters? What would they (and our trainer) do?

                        Comment


                        • I decided that the letter is useless EXECPT in its attempt to stir up crap. 90% of the posts on this thread are about the snotty attitude and not even about her point...or lack thereof.
                          Actually, I don't think she has one. She just seems bitter that she didn't think to get out of the "trained robot" stage earlier.

                          Sorry! Edited to say that my actual user name is silly*mare! I forgot to log into my name.
                          \"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once\"

                          Comment


                          • Yes! she has NO point. As a matter of fact, almost nothing said in the letter or about the letter has anything to do with "the point". The point being, should hunters and jumpers be seperate, why or why not.

                            Her first sentence states this is why hunters and jumpers should be seperate...and these are basically her reasons.

                            I am great, I waisted 6 yrs, there are a lot of hunters, hunters cause divorses, hunters are a boring waiste of time, hunter riders ride poorly, jumpers won't/don't cost that much, bla bla bla bla, me me me me!

                            And her point is??? She never gives ONE reason why they should be seperate, not that I can desipher(sp?). I agree, sounds like a personal problem.

                            ~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~

                            [This message was edited by showpony on Apr. 18, 2003 at 12:14 AM.]
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                            • Original Poster

                              I'm curious to see if there will be any letters coming up in rebuttle to her's.

                              I think there's going to be some good fireworks coming up!

                              "Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H
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                              Comment


                              • But what about the actual nuts-and-bolts of the proposal? What would happen if they were separated (not that it would happen--too many entrenched trainers/show managers)?

                                I think it might make for a healthy change, especially if jumpers went the European route so you qualified OUT of divisions and were forced to move on (or move into hunters). Indeed, separating them I think would advance jumpers considerably.

                                My big beef these days is that there are sooooo few trainers who actually TRAIN anyone. They just babysit (and/or find babysitters to do it for them: hunters or jumpers). Yeah, they have to make a living and babysitting 90% of the time is the easiest way to do it, but it doesn't help the sport or the industry in the least. It just helps the trainers and the show managers. (It sure as heck doesn't help the people breeding and producing show horses--having to make babysitters increases risks and eats up profits.)

                                Splitting the two wouldn't even necessarily be an organizational headache. Surely, many shows would still offer both sports, BUT some shows might evolve into specialists (probably jumper shows) and attract the kind of sponsorship attention the sport deserves.

                                I dunno. I just think CHANGE is good. If jumpers had to stand on their own, like dressage does vs. eventing (there's a model for you: dressage is "kinda" to eventing as jumpers are to hunters--and in the western sports, they have exclusive cutting or reining shows, but also open shows with all types of classes)...anyay, I really, really think the sport of jumpers would evolve into something much better than it is currently if it went out on its own: a new kind of show, a new kind of trainer, a new kind of industry, etc. I think right now jumpers are simply crippled by trainers' and show managers' reliance on hunter clients to pay the bills. That's the solution for THEM and so they just aren't about to look at or think about any other option(s).

                                And, to add insult to insult, I'm sorry folks, but the truth of the matter is, as the letter writer implies, hunters are indeed "devolving" into the kind of hyperstylized sport that western pleasure and saddle seat have become. The emphasis is on NOT riding, not making your own decisions, not thinking on your feet (er, in your stirrups, that is), not doing ANYTHING but sitting there: that's what wins in...what? 90% of the classes out there? It's all about the passenger on the packer (granted, even the roots of the sport were about that, when you think about it)...90% of the time (the other 10% IS fun to watch, but what's the percentage of 3'6"+ entries to 3' and under? 1-to-9 maybe????)

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                                Comment


                                • It makes me want to subscribe to the Chronical just to read the replies on her letter. I hope she knows that she just opened a pandora's box.

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                                  • "I imagine lower level hunters being like lower level dressage. It might be interesting to some, but it puts me personally sound asleep . But I do like watching the Grand Prix level dressage riders."

                                    Yes, but because dressage shows assign times for classes/riders, you will not waste your time sitting around watching the lower classes waiting for the GP to start as a general rule.

                                    Comment


                                    • Having separate "affiliate" organizations for hunters and jumpers would IN NO WAY prevent shows with both hunter and jumper divisions.

                                      For instance, the Welsh and Connemara divisons each have their own affilaite organizations. But that doesn't prevent them form having Welsh and Connemara classes at hunter/jumper shows.

                                      Janet
                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment


                                      • I do not understand what ring conflicts and "waiting 2 1/2 hours for seven horses to go" have to do with separating hunters and jumpers. The lateness and inability to school oneself happens in both the hunter and jumper rings; from my experience, more in the low jumper rings than anywhere else.
                                        Personally, I like watching hunters. Even low level ones - to a point. Watching low-level jumpers bores me to death - especially optimum time. Until they start hitting the rails or having to really gallop, I don't care to watch.
                                        I don't think riding is a spectator sport or even trying to be one. I think it might be nice if we televised the big Grand Prix on ESPN more often, but honestly, it is a sport you DO, not a sport you watch. I don't hang around and watch high school soccer games, and I don't expect any soccer players to watch childrens' equitation.

                                        I'm going to live forever or die trying.

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                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anyway, I have said it before, and I will say it again, the HUGE number of hunter classes lower than 3'0 is an anathema to me. I think it is an insult to the horses, riders, and trainers. Yes, there is a need for one or two of those divisions - but they are self-perpetuating and not encouraging riders (especially young riders) to move UP! (Adults ARE a different story, I will admit...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          A-yup - you said it all!

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