Letter in this weeks COTH (4/11)

[Hopeful Hunter]

hmmmm.....I just got my COTH yesterday and read the letter this morning. I, too, had a strong reaction to it.

My first reaction was frankly shock that COTH would print something so badly written and just plain rude. I don't know Ms. LaVigne at all, but I think that she might benefit from spending some of that money she so laments on a writing and/or charm course. I found her letter almost impossible to follow logically, insulting to almost any thinking person where it did read sensibly, and frankly I missed her point.

What I got was that she doesn't seem to like the hunters and considers hunter riders to be gutless, brainless and stupidly profligate spenders of time and money. I find the manner in which she expressed that opinion to be highly offensive, but what was even worse is that she offers nothing to explain or persuade anyone to that opinion.

So, writing off Ms. LaVigne as someone with, shall we say underdeveloped communication skills, what about what I gather is her thesis: that jumpers should split from hunters?

IF there are enough classes and entries to make it economically feasible, go for it is what I say. If the jumpers want an all jumper show, fine. If they want jumpers to just show on a different day only, fine (it might make for a better organized show -- hunters on Friday, jumpers all day Saturday, hunter championships Sun morning and jumpers SUn night. But don't some shows already run that way?) I ride, or try to ride, hunters. But I agree that the search for perfection doesn't have the potential audience thrill that a simple jumper round does.

IF the English disciplines were to ever try to market themselves, that might be an issue, but frankly it seems the concept of true marketing and specatator interest is so far off it seems irrelevant right now. Besides, if you ran JUST the upper levels of all the English disciplines on the weekend evenings, say -- dressage, hunters and jumpers -- provided REAL information in terms of FREE programs and good announcements regarding what the judges were looking for and what the differences in riding styles/approaches are; offered interviews and analysis; etc. you could make ALL of the top classes much, much more interesting and attractive.

However, hunter classes work for many people. Low classes work for many, too. It might be nice to see a low (like 2'6") jumper class offered too -- heck, I might even try that. But once again, Ms. LaVigne like so many others fails to recognize something about equestrian sports in general that to me transcends the hunter vs jumper split.

The reality is that in equestrian sports today NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO "ADVANCE" AND DO BIGGER THINGS! Some people see advancement as becoming more proficient at that low level, not added height. Especially with adults -- and we do pay the bills you know, even for those juniors running up the ranks -- it can take a LONG TIME to become comfortable showing at 2'6", or 2'9" or 3'. And that may indeed be all someone wants to do. Most of us have jobs and life responsibilities and we have to take considered risks, and that extra 6" may make the risk too high in our eyes. WE ARE ENTITLED TO THAT.

And shouldn't we also be entitled to try out our skills in competitions -- even in "nice" or "fancy" competitions? I'm getting a mite tired of being insulted because I "only" do low local levels. I support this industry by doing so, you know.

Now, other issues still remain. This "holding the ring for the trainer" crap is just that, imo. If the trainer is that busy, have someone to video the round and review it right away with your student or something, but don't hold a ring for a half hour. Personally, I'd like to see fines for that, but then I'm just mean, plus I have a trainer who happily sticks her students in there early or to fill a hole. She figures we've been coached, she won't change anything last minute by the in-gate and it's up to the riders now. She watches the rounds, but we'll school and even show alone, too. But that's another topic.

I guess what I took from this letter is confirmation yet again that the "upper" levels of riding are not only closed to most of us grassroots riders, they are downright hostile. And that's a shame, because I believe in the long run that's not healthy for anyone involved in any equestrian pursuit.

[Tucked_Away]

Question about the rubber band thing that keeps coming up. I was under the impression that this sort of thing is only allowed with special permission, say, for someone with a disability that for whatever reason makes it difficult to keep their feet in the stirrup. Is that not the case? (Don't particularly care about this one rider, just wondering about the rule.)

[nelson]

Well, I, for one, could care less what Ms. LaVigne has to say about the hunters.

I LOVE the hunters - love riding them, love watching them, love rooting for my favorites. They are beautiful and lovely to watch when ridden well - at any level.

I guess Ms. LaVigne had to move into the jumpers because she couldn' keep her feet in the stirrups on a good-jumping hunter without tying them in? That's too bad - she is missing out.

[ProzacPuppy]

Showjump- I can understand about the conflicts (in Gulfport and elsewhere) to a point. But there were a number of barns that were solely jumpers and they'd come meandering up to the ring after we'd been waiting 30 minutes and then begin to school.

Okay, so you are stabled a long way from the ring. We sent either a junior or a groom off in the golfcart to check on where they were and how many rounds to go so that our horses would be schooled and ready when they were called.

I still think alot of it is posturing and attitude. We rode with one such trainer who would be hanging out in the tack room, watching videos or something equally important, when he knew they were holding the ring for him and his rider, horse and groom were all standing around down at the gate. Even tho he was our trainer it made me want to kick him.

I still do not understand what difference it makes if they are at the same show. Except for the occasional conflicts they are two separate worlds at most big shows- their own rings, warmup areas etc.

[Canterbury]

I for one would not like it if we split the huntes and jumpers into two different shows. I train and ride both and it would make it very difficult for me , my staff, and my customers to try and do both. What they do have in Europe and I think would work here is National level showing (which could be the hunters and the jumpers i.e child/adult, jr.am etc.) and International level (which would be just jumpers, people that are trying to qualify for World Cup, World Championships, Pan Am Games, Olympic Games, Nations Cup etc.)

Both disciplines have been extremely watered down as of recent, in Ocala this year on Fridays you could not find a hunter class where the jumps where bigger then three feet. Going to an 'A' rated horse show used to be something kind of special, we all wanted that status now all of the horse shows are just the same. It used to be special to ride in the Hunter Classics, now there are so many of them (NAL, M/S, WIHS) that they are not special either. I believe that some hrose show managers just see the all mighty dollar and want to get as many people to one show as they can. Rathere then trying to get people to become better horseman. To create some demand all you have to do is limit the supply. Basic economics.

[tidy rabbit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Canterbury:

Both disciplines have been extremely watered down as of recent, in Ocala this year on Fridays you could not find a hunter class where the jumps where bigger then three feet. Going to an 'A' rated horse show used to be something kind of special, we all wanted that status now all of the horse shows are just the same. It used to be special to ride in the Hunter Classics, now there are so many of them (NAL, M/S, WIHS) that they are not special either. I believe that some hrose show managers just see the all mighty dollar and want to get as many people to one show as they can. Rathere then trying to get people to become better horseman. To create some demand all you have to do is limit the supply. Basic economics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No kidding! Well put!

"Just remember Dear, it takes a mighty fine man to be better then none!" ~ My mom.

[Ghazzu]

I've got no beef with folks who want to ride the 2'6" hunter stuff, and aren't up to the 4' division. I'm one of those folks.

But face it, it ain't any kind of pinnacle of equestrian finesse. It *is* pretty boring to watch.

Fast and clear is more exciting for the guy on the rail.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

[silly*mare!]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stegall:
disagreeing about something is ok. Throwing out insults is not brave-its tactless. Its easy to insult, but much harder to make a thoughtful statement about your point of view.

There are many types of riding that do not appeal to me, however, I understand that those involved are putting their best effort into something they LIKE to do. I respect them as fellow equestrians, and would not presume to denigrate them like that.

This is the type of situation that lowers the equine community as a whole, and divides people rather than proposing a solution to a problem.

No wonder the non horse community views us as snobs, when all we can do is insult one another in print......... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Excellent point and I agree with you.

I don't see why jumper and hunter can't be seperated and I find hunter to be boring as well. I understand the sport and I don't prefer to watch unless it's someone I know but I respect the fluidity, grace and skill needed to guide a horse smoothly over 8-10 jumps. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>IMHO, her letter didn't offer any positive, constructive ideas for improving horse shows or governance of the sport. It seemed to just be an excuse to bash another discipline.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like this point.
Maybe we need to make hunter fun for non-horsey people. Heck, if they can put figure-skating on TV and have people actually watch it, maybe hunter could be there too...(I don't watch figure skating but some people do)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Heck, stereotyping is FUN, it's EASY, it's GUARANTEED to get a reaction.

It's also kind of ignorant. The problem is that humans are very, very difficult to stereotype. When one does so, one generally "misses the boat" to a large degree, because only a very small fraction of people are truly one-dimensional. By DOING the stereotyping, particularly in a public, histrionic manner, one paints ONESELF as rather shallow and one-dimensional, IMO.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a lot to be said for using class when presenting a point. I need to learn that still but I ain't sending any letters to national magazines until I do.

Cool thread.

[CAJumper]

Most people I know ride both hunters and jumpers. I do. I would hate to have them split and have to attend separate shows. I would probably have to choose one discipline over the other...and I honestly don't know which one that would be. They are not two separate sports in this country, IMO, especially at the lower levels (the levels which pay all the bills, BTW). Separating Hunters from Jumpers is an interesting debate, but I just don't think it makes much sense.

[Heather]

I don't know Ms. LaVigne from a hole in the wall, and I know even less about the various angles of the debate on seperating hunters and jumpers (to my little eventing mind it makes some sense, as one is a discipline which is based on and pointed to an FEI discipline and one is not), but as an eventer, it effects me not at all whether they are one sport or two.

HOWEVER, I think to try to discredit her point of view by attacking her riding is the lowest and most pathetic thing I can imagine. If you disagree with her, FINE, then disagree all you want, but that's absolutely no call in my books to start personally bashing her as a rider. You want to talk about stereotypes being proven right, well congrats, you just did it with that "claws unleased" catty response.

Reminds me very much of the time I was at an event "babysitting" a hunter gal, and observing a rider, she broke in to open laughter about how ugly a rider this person was, and how she felt sorry for whatever poor horse had to cart that awful person around. I informed her as frostily as I could (since I really wanted to strangle her) that rider in question had just been our highest placed American indiviual at the Olympics, and that her many, many, CCI**** level horses seemed to like the way she rode just fine. Needless to say my impression of hunter people wasn't all too great that day.

And CLEARLY a "foundation in the hunters" doesn't matter a hill of beans at the international level. So let's just stop pretending that it does. We've got heaps of hunter and eq folks who are are current GP riders, and frankly, they ain't getting the job done at the international level. I don't "blame" our invovlvment in American hunters for that, but my point is, at the very least, it's safe to say it isn't a huge help or some secret weapon which gives us an advantage.

The Europeans aren't as "pretty" but there is no denying they are better.

But, back to my main point, you can call her foolish, irrational, off-point, badly spoken, whatever, but there is no need to start saying, "Well, she's a bad rider so she must be wrong." It just makes it seem like you couldn't come up with any actual answers to discount her points.

[dogchushu]

Right now, my barn is all hunters. That's only because it's small and all the riders who are there now are interested in the hunters.

However, last year there was a jumper rider (she's in college now). She started out in hunters, but her horse decided he much prefered to be a jumper! So off to jumper land they went, and they had a great, very successful time for several years. She didn't have to switch barns , went to shows with all us hunters, and was part of the gang! She certainly wasn't the only person I heard of making the switch because her horse preferred one discipline over the other. Who knows, maybe one of the greenies at our barn will decide that jumpers is his thing!

I'm not sure it would have been so easy for her to make the switch if the hunters and jumpers were held at different shows. It would have involved going to shows by herself and paying the full cost of trailering--which probably would have meant she'd eventually have switched barns or switched horses.

So I'd like to keep them together--for the reason that may people switch between one or the other based on their horses needs. Or maybe they just want to try something new!

[Tha Ridge]

SydneyS -

Lila has seen her share of good Hunters. She was the Nat'l. A/O Jumper champion a year or two back, so she's not some MS backwoods person. She very rarely shows there.

- L.

Je suis un salamander. J'entrerai dans le feu mais je ne brûlerai pas.

[breezymeadow]

First of all, let me say that I also do not know Ms. "Lisa LaVigne" from a hole in the wall. Enough said about her "infamousy".

However, as an "amateur" - a PERMANENT adult amateur - I found her letter not only unbelievably insulting,but EXTREMELY self-serving.

Congrats to her for making it to the "$ prize-wining jumpers". Hurray! However, the majority of us are not doing this for the prize money. We are doing it for the enjoyment of competing on an animal that we have formed a loving partnership with.

Ms. LaVigne claims to have "wasted" six years in hunters, yet I dare her to find any of the top jumper riders today who didn't start in "hunters" - good Lord, herself included!!!

Something not mentioned in her diatribe was what would happen to those of us who will perpetually remain in the lower hunter levels. I for one, if I am ever able to ride again, will certainly never be a "jumper" rider - 2'6" would definitely be my limit - should I hang up my boots for good???

I am SO sorry that POOR, POOR Ms. LaVigne has to wait SO, SO, long before the classes she competes in to show up us poor amateur & hunter riders. . . . poor, poor Ms. LaVigne. As others have so astutely stated --- let Ms. LaVigne start competing in classes where the $$ hasn't been augmented by the hunter classes -- she'll need to find a few more benches to sleep under.

AND - I take final insult in her remarks that our "significant others" are "falling asleep" or "filing for divorce" because we ride in the hunter classes. Good grief - after re-reading her entire letter, it doesn't surprise me in the least that Ms. LaVigne says that "if I was married, I'm sure I would be going through an ugly divorce". With her apparent personality, who wouldn't divorce her?? Good luck to said "boyfriend".

(P.S. Not only do I ADORE Tabasco, I also ADORE other unbelievably hot chile sauces, & frequently use Habenaro sauce on my morning eggs - SO THERE!!!!!)

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it's a "fixer-upper".

[This message was edited by breezymeadow on Apr. 15, 2003 at 05:02 PM.]

[KJoy]

Lila has the right to her opinion, and the right to express it. However, I don't know who she thinks she is going to "win over" with a letter like that. As this thread indicates, a tactful, well-written, and thoughtful letter would have done a much better job of convincing people, rather than alienating them. Many people were put on the defensive immediately after reading the letter, and cannot even consider the points she is making. No one is going to be convinced of anything by that harsh, offensive letter. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, right?

[Ash]

Ms. LaVagine (and that is being kind) has attacked the whole entire hunter industry and you think it is rude to attack her riding? If you are going to throw stones, you better make sure you don't live in a glass house. I for one HAVE seen her ride (and yes, win) and I really don't think she has any right to criticize ANYONE. Just because you have the kahunas to take unbelievable risks doesn't make you a good rider.........someone won a few classes and is feeling awfully full of themselves....

[jackson]

OMG AFTER READING EVERYONE ELSES RANTING AND RAVING I AM NOT SURE WHERE TO BEGIN MINE.

I honestly think this letter Ms. LaVigne wrote was hillarious! She obviously knows some low people in some high places (if you know what I mean) to get this printed in such a well established classy magazine. She is of course entitled to her opninon and some how she got it printed in COTH. I am hoping it is not beacause of who she knows (which reflects most of the hunter world) but rather what she knows. Yes this letter shows what "class" she belongs in or her lack there of it, but lets not get jealous of her status in the hunter/jumper, oh wait I mean JUMPER, industry because her opinion got heard! I do not agree with her nasty attitude and need to put others down to make herself feel better, what is she in high school?! Oh wait someone said early 40's. She sounds like she may be having a mid life crisis! I wouldn't know her face from her horses a$$ so I will not stoop to her level by insulting what I do not know. I will admit she sounds like me and is strong willed, blunt and fearless.

I agree with her thoughts on spliting the two. I have done hunters and equitation all my life and see great differences between hunters and jumpers. Hunters is for sport (and as cash cow for all of the professionals envolved in it) and Jumpers is for true athletes who are smart and gutsy (the horses and riders). The two are so different now I dont know how to put them on the same level. When I was a jumior a lot of the kids did jumpers on their nice hunters just for fun. Now a lot of ammies have turned to jumpers because they are getting money back and its good practice for the eq and medal classes. There is more competition there. You can take it further and it is growing. You cant use your hunter for jumpers. Hunters and jumpers have evolved in 2 different directions. The styles are not even close. You cant compare attire, tack, position in the saddle and even now trainers (some pick one over the other). Jumpers here are becoming more of a serious industry in their own, like in Europe. Hunters are turning more to the fashion police for advice. I love the hunters. I like to show off nice attire and a perfectly groomed horse. I say to each his own!

So if this is to be split how will it work? Where will it start? What classes will be right on the line? I see it working if shows are not schedule at the same time. But at the same time I see not as many participants in both areas. Who knows maybe more people will participate in jumper shows as they will be so much more user friendly than shows are now. But what about equitation classes? Where do they fall? Many who do eq do not do jumpers. Many do both hunters and jumpers and they will have duplicated expenses for hauling and coaching.

On a personal note: If you can not ride your horse in a 3' class without your trainer there to hold your hand or to warm up your horse as you try as hard as you can to memorize a course consisting of 8 fences then you belong at a schooling show. I will admit it is crap like that that makes everyone hunter or jumper sour at shows. In dressage you can not have any professional on your horse at any time while on the show grounds. You do all the work your self! I give a lot more credit to the good ammies in dressage than I do to the hunter ammies. And my god, why cant horse show management take the damn time to give every class a time slot like vaulting to cut out all the hurry up and wait?! The entrants sure as hell pay enough to deserve that. But oh wait I guess all the money for entries goes to the jumper pots rather than to one more employee who may have some frickin' organizational skills! Maybe if the hunter entry money stayed with the hunters they could learn how to be organized and win some prize money.

OK ding my time is up.

Most premature departures are pilot error.

They all laughed at me when I said warmbloods would make good hunters. But I knew!

[Gravie]

I resent that letter.

I respect her opinion, but I resent the fact that she's so blatantly biased, and doesn't even make an attempt to redeem herself via even one nice thing said about hunters.

Because without hunters, you had BETTER not be a jumper. You just *NEED* that foundation, the countrol. You can't go running around the course cutting corners and just splurging and in poor form without having the foundations first. "You have to know the rules to break them," and that's very applicable. It's a control issue, too. If you're not stable and you don't have the distance etc, you oughtn't be a jumper just yet.

I mean, I'm just rambling because I'm quite frankly a bit pissed off at how she presented hunters. "A waste of time for 6 years"? Hardly. Sure, it's not for everyone, but it provides foundation in position, control, track, everything. Plus, heh, we're classy. *snerk*

She could have presented herself in a more distinguished manner. Here I thought this would be a well-presented compare/contrast essay, that, while biased toward one or the other, would certainly have a bit more information than her poorly chosen adjectives and blatant offensiveness.

___________

Petey's e-stall. Bio, stats, pics, + other goodies. Bring him a carrot! ^_^

___________

[Liverpool]

It's all about the audience, IMO

I kind of doubt that Ms. Lavigne wrote that letter to sway a bunch of COTH readers on this subject.

For someone who professes to be so appalled by the politics of the hunter ring, it occurs to me that the writer might think it a great way to cozy up to a certain &lt;gasp&gt; show manager (and certain councilcoughmemberscough) that voiced a strong opinion about splitting hunters and jumpers on a national level.

Hmmmmmmm.

"It's a funny thing about life: If you refuse to accept anything but the best, you very often get it." ---W. Somerset Maugham

[Albion]

I thought the letter was highly inflammatory & not particularly well written, but you know, I DON'T think you need to do the hunters before you start with the jumpers. As has been discussed, Europe doesn't have our idea of the "hunters" & they seem to do juuuust fine in the hunter ring. Yes yes, I know England has "hunters", but it's not like over here. Those 11 year olds on small ponies are jumping BIG fences in their JUMPER classes.

Good equitation is good equitation. As has been discussed NUMEROUS times on this board, there is some downright SCARY looking perching in the hunter rings at times (please note: I am not saying this doesn't happen in the jumper rings, it does!). There are plenty of people in the H/J world that, if they maintained their typical jumping ahead-butt in the air-loose lower leg pose in the huntfield, would promptly be deposited on the other side of the fence from their horse.

You don't NEED to do the hunters to develop a soft seat, kind hand, good eye, etc. It's possible to develop that without ever having to set foot in the hunter ring.

-Albion

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[Blue Devil]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tha Ridge:
SydneyS -

Lila has seen her share of good Hunters. She was the Nat'l. A/O Jumper champion a year or two back, so she's not some MS backwoods person. She very rarely shows there.

- L.

Je suis un salamander. J'entrerai dans le feu mais je ne brûlerai pas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually she shows at all of the MHJA shows here and does Gulfport.

formerly Emily A My karma ran over your dogma.