Does he need a come to jesus meeting? Or am I the bad one...

[SLW]

You can do the all out battle. I've seen it work. I've seen another way too. Break the horse into two parts, his front and back. When one part stops you can make the other part "work" to get motion and once you have motion you can select the direction.

One exercise is "hindquarters over, forehand through". This is done while walking or in your case it might be from a standstill until Dobbin walks willingly. While walking along but off the rail, with the rail on my left side, when my horses right shoulder is back I will give a half halt, then que for a turn on the forehand and push the hindquarters over to the left for a few steps, maybe two steps to start. Once the horse has moved the hindquarters over those few steps then I ask for a pivot- bring the shoulders over to the right- to finish the half turn and then walk off on a loose rein. Does this make sense?? The key thing here that I was taught is- rhythm, asking with the lightest possible leg/hand/seat ques and keeping the horse moving. When I was learning this exercise at a clinic I brought my mare to a complete half, then asked for the hindquarters over etc. The clinician had me get rid of the halt- he said my hunt seat background was making me do that but he wanted soft and fluid motion. It took me a week of practicing this to "get it" but what was so cool was my mare was also looking to me for direction.

The other very simple but very helpful exercise was 3 speeds at a walk. A regular walk, medium walk and a creepy crawly one foot at a time walk. Again, using the softest ques you can to get the increase and decrease in speed and ask with less and less pressure each time. My mare, who trends towards extremely keen, now waits to be told what walking speed we are using. At this point if I exhale and sit up, whether in the arena or out hunting, her speed slows down.

And one last thing for Dobbin drafty. Cerpentines. Use them. 3 or 4 straight walking strides, two on the turn and then 3 or 4 straight walking strides. Soft, soft ques.

All of the above exercises can be done in a small arena or out on a trail. Mix up the exercises so the horses doeset get bored or anticipate. There are some very, very cool exercises that use backing to help break the horse into two parts. All of these exercises, if done softly, eliminate "brace" in the horse and give you a soft, hold in the tip of your fingers, horse.

As always, if Dobbin has a habit of stopping after walking forward 4 strides then you ask him to halt after 3 strides. Don't push him to the point that he decides to stop, be one step ahead of him- no pun intended. Gradually increase the number of strides forward you take before asking for the halt.

[pinkpony321]

I'm another one in the CTJ camp. At this point, he's just learning that you won't push the issue. Don't try to go for it all in one day...maybe one CTJ meeting, and if he moves forward for a reasonable amount of time, praise him generously, and call it quits! Wash, rinse, repeat Baby steps.

[caradino]

Really interesting responses! My pony will have similar tantrums and get very offended by stick & spurs until he finally capitulates and goes into "work mode", after which he is a total saint. He's another smart one that can get bored easily.

Sometimes in order to get forward instead of starting a fight I have to change the subject with him. No forward? Ok, we'll go backwards. Or sideways. Or spin around. Some days before we even canter I pop him over a small crossrail (he likes to jump) to install the "go button" and help him feel like he has some sort of purpose in life.

Good luck! The smart, stubborn, lazy horses are tough to figure out.

[TequilaMockingbird]

A fellow boarder has a mare that two years ago would come to a complete stop in the middle of the ride and would refuse to budge until you dismounted.

This habit was learned when a specific dressage trainer was riding her and progressed to the final stage of refusing to budge. The owner or trainer would always give up before forward happened so the mare just learned to outlast their demands, knowing they would always give up eventually. Each ride would be ended faster and faster by the horse deciding when she was done. She never went to a bucking or rearing stage as that would have taken too much energy. She just turned off and planted her feet.

The owner sought out a new dressage trainer to fix this mess (who also happens to be my trainer). There were several rides for the first couple weeks that were NOT fun for either party and employed a lot of use of the dressage whip. The horse had to learn that she WILL go forward when told and the mare can decide how easy or hard she'd like to make that request on herself.

She is now very well trained and hot to the leg if you ride her that way. You have to ride with high expectations that you're willing to back up if given the wrong answer. She dulls quickly to aids if allowed to push the limits. Doing a gallop at the beginning of the ride doesn't do much for her, though I know it does for lots of other horses. The worst outburst she will show is a crow hop, pinned ears, or kicking out randomly with a rear leg to show her displeasure.

I think you're definitely going to be forced to go route 2 but the exact way you go about it (when you choose to let things calm down and when you choose to escalate) depends a lot on the individual horse. Your horse has learned to escalate the situation faster than the rider. Using the absolute identical reactions with your horse vs my example horse may end with someone getting hurt. But the basics will be the same (ie demand forward, release and reward for baby steps at the beginning).

[Foxtrot's]

I don't know what a CTJ meeting is to these posters. A good, well-timed smack at exactly the right time, with the right intensity is one thing - neither too wimpy or too violent - is acceptable. Anything that goes on and on and on, is not horsemanlike.

[x]

I have some experience with draft and draft crosses that don't want to work in the ring. There are several things you can do. The thing that has worked best for me is to give the horse a reason to want to work. For many, that means food. So clicker training is one of my favorite things for getting the draft types motivated to work in the ring. Positive reinforcement seems to be the best bet with them. There are some great books out on the subject, and it really works well.

[Chachie]

Probably a stupid question but I will ask it anyway....

How much time has he actually spent in the ring?

This would be my first question if you brought this horse to me for training. Giving his history of being trained by an insecure person then hearing that he does an acceptable job outside of the ring with a few battle of wills that are expected of greenies, i would then ask you how much time you have spent in the ring: is this where you do your groundwork,do you lunge him in the ring, how many sessions are you in the ring as opposed to on the trails, etc?

So while it may seem silly to ask a seasoned confident rider these questions, it might very well be that you are inadvertently creating the confusion. Other people have said that a come to jesus talk is necessary but for me, I'm hearing that this horse is unsure of himself in the rong and is trying to figure it out. He sounds more like a horse who gets schooled on the trails, the barn aisle, the round pen but not really in the ring. So when he's asked to go through his motions, he is inexperienced and questioning you until he figures it out. Sometimes we forget that even though they can do everything everywhere else and it should just be ok in the ring, some horses didn't get the memo and need to be taught what to do in the ring under saddle and rider just like they were taught outside of it.

With all that being said, I apologize if I did not read your post entirely and missed the part of his training in the ring. I'm sick in bed without my glasses or caffeine yet just figured I would ask and point this out because it didnt seem anyone had.

[Bigbutt]

I haven't read every post on here, but I believe you've been given some good advise with the combination of both, reward and CTJ moments with automatic reward when he moves forward and listens.

I just wanted to come on here and reiterate the knowing 100% if your going to be able to stick the temper tantrum. I have had light horses, had full clydes, and now I have a clyde/tb X - and learned the hard way why these horses are being bred for the rodeo circuit. In under a year it was two serious trips to the hospital, broken bones and internal organ bruising and damage....

I learned my lesson after the second time, checked my ego at the gate and now when I feel a temper tantrum pending - I get off work the snot out of him on a lunge line, and then when I know he no longer has the energy to do much - I get back on and we continue with the ride. At the beginning this could take upwards of 2 hours just to work through all that from beginning ride to final ride.

But these buggers are smart - I think its the clyde (draft) in them - and they learn very quickly if they have their temper tantrums (and that is truly what they are) and can get you off, your screwed. And you will never be able to out muscle them, but you can out think them.... and once you develop that pattern they are great horses, and can have a good work ethic - but not till you establish your the boss and they are the employee.

Good luck and be careful

[Flash44]

OP - I would add two things.

Before you ride, tie him up for at least half an hour with the saddle on. Work your way up to a full hour. This needs to be done someplace where he feels secure,and you should be around to keep an eye on him. He needs to learn patience and submission, and this is a great way to do it. Then do ground work/ride, then tie him up again for at least 30 minutes with the saddle on. If you can tie him up to a fence post or someplace other than the wall in his stall and you feel he will stand there, great. You've now given him a "job" instead of imposing on him for an hour, and it does wonders for the attitude.

It's hard for a horse to buck and rear if it's going in a circle. As soon as you feel him balking, pull his head around and try to kick him into a trot. Give him the option of walking forward or trotting in a circle. He will learn from the release of pressure, so if you can get him to understand that you will leave him alone if he goes forward, you will make progress.

If you still feel like he is going to blow up when you do this, try to get the same pattern on the ground. Make him trot in circles around you while putting pressure on him, then allow him to drift to the rail, let him walk, and walk quietly slightly to the side and back from his shoulder so he learns to go forward on his own on the rail. If he stops, get after him and make him trot circles again. Once you feel he understands this drill, try the same pattern from his back.

[Foxtrot's]

Once his feet get stuck (actually, Just as he is thinking about it) you have to get him to move them, one way or the other, back, side, round.

[rhymeswithfizz]

Forward is not negotiable. What happens when you lunge him?

For me, if I was on this horse, I wouldn't tolerate a humpy back, and walking when he felt like getting around to it. I would demand FORWARD and then reward like crazy as soon as he offered a tiny bit of go.

I have a pretty good center of gravity - and would have my legs deep and ready for any antics - I think it is also good for them to learn that bucking and carrying on will not result in losing a rider, will not result in going back to the barn, but will only result in more work and more forward.

He needs to unlearn two habbits - calling the shots regarding working at all. And bucking to avoid work. - He needs to learn that both of these behaviors will result in MORE work, and that compliance will result in praise, and then a reward for a job well done.

When dealing with a young horse, and overcoming a particular hurdle - once the horse really "tries" I have been known to praise like crazy, stop, and untack immediately, right there in the arena (followed by more pats and praise) - to show the horse how much I appreciated their cooperation.

I would be inclined to do the same with this horse - if lets say, he trotted on in a forward, unsticky manner (perhaps after a bit of a wake up call butt whoop) - he would get a YES! GOOD! - and after a couple more forward minded steps - VERY GOOD, and then call it a day.

You want to make it CLEAR when they are doing right, and CLEAR when they are doing wrong. Sounds like messages are muddied at the moment - and kinda sorta walking when he feels like it is categorized as "good".

So yes, I would have a come to Jesus meeting. And I second or third work ethic - and not unusual for a draft breed.



I agree with this as well - I would be inclined to ask for a hand gallop - what ever the most forward it is that you can get him to go - sometimes it surprises them, especially if they have been allowed to be so bulky, once you have them going FORWARD, even coming back down to a walk can be a reward.

This, IN SPADES. Forward means forward, period. And not just when he feels like it, but RIGHT FREAKING NOW. I have had to do the CTJ with lots of horses and I have never had it not work. And second the importance of the reward. I also have been known to untack right in the arena

I would avoid the treat reward, as that just reinforces the stop. I rode one horse who every time you said "good boy" he would screech to a halt and look for a sugar cube.

[SAcres]

Just thought I'd bump this up and give an update.

First of all, thanks so much for the advice, it was exactly what I needed to hear! That no, I will not be an evil animal abuser if I actually make this horse work a little.

So the CMJ meeting happened. Sort of. He was a bit of a jerk on our last trail ride, he's getting a little bored on trails he already knows. He'll stop and then try to turn in a random direction where there is clearly no trail. So he was "made" to walk in a straight line, and not stop until I asked. It went over well without too many issues other than a few "do I have to" type head shakes. He was a gentleman after that though, trotting happily up and down the trail, tiring the poor boy out a little. He's not in the best shape, I don't think he's ever been in "real" work.

Got back to the ring and I did have to fight with him. I just wanted a lap around the ring. Walk past the gate to go to the barn (he didn't actually want to go to the barn...I'll explain in a minute). He balked and refused to move at that gate. I sat and waited him out. Eventually he decided to move a few steps, praised him like no other. Then he stopped, so we repeated. Note: I was "encouraging" him to move...not huge constant pony club kicks, but I would give him a little kick and a smack with the reins. Eventually I got him around the ring twice and even weaved through some cones.

It's going to be a long uphill battle. I was honestly frustrated after I got off and thought about the ride. I was really hoping he would just blow up, get over it, and start moving forward, but he doesn't seem to be that type. I may ride with a dressage whip next time, see if it makes a difference. I would PREFER to ride out a bucking bronc temper tantrum because then at least I'd be getting a real reaction.

I'm working on the ground with getting him more responsive to my touch and asking for lateral movements. I'm hoping it will transfer pretty well u/s so if I can't get him to move forward maybe I can get him to move laterally. IMO, if he moves his feet right now he should get praise.

Part of me wonders what on earth happened to him. How a horse that is perfectly willing to w/t/and probably canter on the trail could hate the ring so much. I have NEVER seen a horse so ring sour, and I worked at a lesson barn for 5 years.

Oh, back to the "he wants to go out the gate but not back to the barn"...I gave him the reins completely after he did the cones, as a reward, and he immediately trotted out of the gate, PAST the barn, past his buddies in the field and didn't stop until we reached the ditch/runoff stream, at which point I got off of him. So he apparently is not barn sour, just hate the ring. :roll eyes:

I always wanted a kick butt trail horse...

[SLW]

Good job! It's so funny to read you would prefer to ride out a bucking bronc. At the first indication of a rolled back I start making the sign of the cross and kick my feet out of the stirrups.

[Highflyer]

Are you not carrying a dressage whip? There's no reason you should be smacking him with the reins. I would carry a whip every time you get on him, and when he stops (or preferably just BEFORE he stops-- you should be able to feel him slowing down), start whacking-- not big crazy swings, but steady sharp taps on the hindquarters. Then when he goes make a big fuss over how good he is. HOnestly the last thing I would do is sit and wait it out, giving him a little kick occasionally.

[HannahsMom7]

I have been following this thread. I had a draft x - Belgian X? (QH?). He was green, green ,green but after I got some training on him and me - well he got a personality.

at one point, he was diving out the ring gate dispite my still beginner,efforts to control this. Ii would turn him 1/2 way from the gate and he would make a mad dash out of it! After he blew thru the gate, he would willingly go back to the ring.

I believe he did this just to be "funny" or because he could. Once I was able to get a good correction it not happened again.

I know not to put on human emotions on an animal, but I swear he thought it was a funny!

[microbovine]

Oh poop. I responded before I saw the second page, LOL!

Sounds like it's going better. Since he had an attitude on the trail, I might review his tack and physical condition. The novelty wore off and he was bad again which could mean he was distracted from pain.