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Fair market value for a FresianX gelding

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  • #81
    It's quite odd to see who is calling some breeds or crosses "faddish." Warmbloods are the ULTIMATE faddish cross, and they seem to be doing quite well for themselves!

    Anyway, I have no use for a horse who is NOT a pleasure horse. Any horse who is not a pleasure to ride is kicked out of my barn! He is of no service to me. Sure, I'll try to find him a good home. But I want to waste as little time as possible on such horses.

    Finally, the original poster asked for the fair market value for her Friesian cross. Did anyone even bother to look at the pictures? Probably not. It would depend on your area, but I would say at least $5000. This could go up with training (and advertising).

    P.S. I fail to see what is SO terrible about the Friesian/QH cross we are referring to. He is nicer than most of the horses posted here. Naturally he is not what most WB people are looking for. DUH! He's not a WB! Is it that complicated???

    I make it a point not to bash other people's breeding programs just because I prefer a different breed. Most of their horses would never be allowed into my barn, but I stay out of the conversation instead of telling them that...

    Comment


    • #82
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
      Additionally, highly inbred populations tend to have prevalent undesirable traits, like HYPP in quarter horses or small lungs in friesians. While these traits are usually recessive, and therefore unnoticed in a large more random population, they tend to show up frequently in crosses. It is better to use a more heterozygous popluation for crossing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Wouldn't a recessive trait be LESS likely to show up in a cross? The recessive gene would need to be in BOTH parents for the trait to express.

      Comment


      • #83
        Less likely than in the inbred population, yes. But in a more heterzygous population, most recessive traits are "under the radar". So you can get a surprize.

        Take the lung issue with friesians. They can easily get heat stroke because of it. Not a great trait for a sport horse in a warm climate. But pulling a carriage in Northern Europe doesn't produce the same stress so it isn't a big deal for friesians in that situation. Now consider a friesian in California, Texas or Arizona. The issue is known and hopefully it is addressed. Now consider the cross maybe it a friesian/TB or qtr horses or arab. The problem is less likely to occur, but is rarely anticipated when it does.
        See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #84
          I'm reposting the photo link, just in case anyone else is interested in taking a look at Merlin himself (only 3 posters have commented directly on the conformation horse in question). There's one from the breeders of his dam and there are also a few pics of the Dutch approved stallion. My sister-in-law hopes to get some more recent photos taken and posted shortly. Merlin photos

          I've already been through the discussion many times of the wisdom of purchasing a horse of this breeding and the pros and cons about what she might be dealing with if she ever wanted/ had to resell, a year and a half ago after SIL lost the Morgan mare she had originally purchased that was supposed to be in foal to one of the breeder's stallions (I think a different stallion, but still Dutch approved) to colic (this colt was supposed to be part of a live foal guarantee deal- long story). I also picked apart the conformation of both the mare and the stallion as well as the baby as best I could with the quality of the video and photos that we had to work with- and I'm VERY, VERY picky in the conformation department when looking at a horse (it's taken seeing tons of TB mares out at shows, etc. on top of seeing the 2 y.o. Holst. X colt that she had and my vets commenting {one worked at a track prior to joining the practice that now sees all kinds of sport horses and polo ponies- he's seen a few nice TBs} about what a nice mare she was for me to realize exactly what it is that I purchased). In the end, since it was going to be HER horse and HER money going into it, it had to be HER decision. Is it a horse that I would want for myself? Probably not. I don't have the same goals that she does either. But then again, nobody else would put up with the soundness issues (pedal osteoitis,in remission at this time; cataracts in one eye; old bow that has flared a few times), under saddle antics (developed a bucking and bolting habit with the blurred vision and progression of the cataracts) and much less than ideal dressage conformation (built a tad downhill, almost fits length-wise in a WB size 2-horse trailer, very weak connection in the loins) of my ex-'chaser. He wasn't exactly what I was looking for at the time, but his personality, gaits (particularly overtracking at the walk just walking in from the field), work ethic, and price tag won me over. I wouldn't trade him for the world. I've learned a ton from this horse and even if he never works another day in his life, he has a home with me 'til death do us part. He's in retirement for now and we will see what happens as I recover from my injuries even though my mom would be happy to see me never ride him again because of his unpredictability and the implications of the risks of another head injury.

          ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
          "I'll take helmet-hair over head trauma any day." --someone who's experienced both

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HorsesAfterHeadTrauma/
          Member: "Collector of Quirky Equines", "Incredible Invisibles", "Proud to be a Mushroom Head", and "Addicted to Howrse" cliques.

          COTHers & Friends on Howrse

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          • #85
            I think 5K is a bit ambitious. 2k is more like it; all it is now is a green horse.

            Comment


            • #86
              he betters his mother anyway.

              i think considering how wild people are about friesians you might get quite a bit mroe than 2. depending on the area 5

              Comment


              • #87
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
                *lol* oh my god.. some of the commentso n this thread are out of this world.

                And to the person who pointed out "an ugly Friesian/QH foal" on one of the websites. I love this double-standard. When someone posts on this board bemoaning how UGLY their Warmblood foal/weanling/yearling is, everyone pats them on the back, there there, it's just the growth stage, they'll grow out of it... But when shown a pic of an ugly-looking Friesian/QH foal, you automatically assume it's the cross that is at the root of the ugliness.

                Some of you people ASTOUND me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                Excellent. I like astounding people. And since I made the comments about the QH/Fresian foal, I'll take credit.

                Lots of babies go through the uglies. However, I believe that I have a good enough eye to determine what is a funny growth stage and what it going to end up being poor conformation. If I were a betting person, I'd bet money that the QH/Fresian cross yearling on the website is going to look as bizarre as an adult as it does as a yearling. I assume the cross is at the root of the uglies as I can go through and say "oh yeah, there's that QH rear end, and there's that Fresian neck." The pieces don't fit together and are very characteristic of the two breeds, therefore it is reasonable to assume that it is the breeds that are causing a large portion of the uglies.

                Not to mention that when the WB breeders are bemoaning the uglies that their 2-year olds are going through, they ARE NOT advertising on their website as an exemplary foal produced by their breeding program.

                So, having said that, I don't understand why you would be so astounded by a fairly well-reasoned statement.

                ~_formerly Master Tally_~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Well, I have read the whole thread but had to comment since I know the horse that wanderlust has chosen to bash. He is now 7 (i think) years old. He is a really really nice horse. He has competed around the country as a driving horse. He has done REALLY well. He has an absolutely fabulous temperament. My coach drives him in a pair with a Welsh Cob/TB. Another driving horse from Proud Meadows is vying for the World Singles Championships. He has consistently had winning dressage scores. One of the other crosses is an unbroke 2 yo, and advertised at 20k (this one is not owned by Proud Meadows, but is by the same stallion). Why the Proud Meadows people have not updated their site- I don't know. I believe the Proud Meadows folks are associated with the German verband... But I don't know the exact details. Their stallions ARE approved. They are not attempting to create a new breed. The Friesian crosses are supposed to have the Freisian looks, but with added endurance. They also have really good temperaments. Some are obviously nicer than others.

                The horse being discussed , is like Lianne said, very cute. He is not conformationally deformed or ugly. He has stood up to heavy work- he does CDE marathons. Give me a break !
                +++++
                visit http://www.starsandstripeswelsh.com
                http://ziggyrocks.blogspot.com

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                • #88
                  I would think that he would go for about what any other draft/ non-tb type cross would go for in your area. While Fresians are a popular breed at the moment, the Fresian/ paint cross is kind of an odd one. I'd think Merlin would be about the same price range as other colts with equal handling who where draft/qh or draft/ paint crosses. He's nice looking, and black-- which might get you a little more. And there's a possibility someone star struck with the idea of a Fresian cross might come along.

                  He's nice looking, but at this point, he doesn't really LOOK like a Fresian, he looks like a cross. So I don't think the crazy-for-Fresian types are going to be lining up for him. I'd price him just about as any other draft/qh or draft/paint cross in your area.

                  Now get him going under saddle down the road and it's a whole nother ball of wax. Non-traditional crosses seem to be a tough sell as prospects, but once the horse is proven people just want to buy the winner-- they care a LOT less about what the makeup of the horse is (for a gelding anywa). It might benefit your sister to hold on to him.

                  ~Veronica

                  "The Son Dee Times"
                  "Sustained"
                  ~Veronica
                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                  • #89
                    -ponybreath- Ha! Thank you for that. Talk about a way to make people eat their words. So glad that little guy is all grown up and doing well!

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Ponybreath- I was pretty sure that was the same foal! She had 2 back to back that were almost identical (but one was a filly and one a colt) so I was not sure which of the two that was. I was going to call them yesterday to double check and I forgot.... they also have her foal from last year I think that is by their Andy stallion- another buckskin! He is gorgeous as well.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        What about Nico? ( I think that is the pinto friesan stud?)

                        And the friesanX Pinto ASB breeders...

                        Personally I have seen some good turnouts... and the price tags would turn me away... but they sell em, and keep breeding....

                        Representing RobbyJ and Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliot: NOTE: This is not reflecting my views! I just about spit out my soda when Robby posted this! (hence why its in the sig line)

                        "When I walk up in the piece, I ain't even gotta speak, I'm a bad muthaf&C#a, godd&&m^t you ain't gotta like me."

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          ponybreath/amy:

                          I'm not a fan of the crossbreeding of Friesians. Especially with non-similar breed types. End of story. Sorry you aren't happy to hear that, but deal with it. It is *my* opinion. You are welcome to have your own and voice them (which you have done), but you aren't going to convince me any differently on this topic.

                          I'm glad to hear that the horse turned out well and is successfull in driving. If you read all of my posts, you would have seen that I said that I had no idea whether he would appeal to the driving folks. Apparently he does, and I'm glad he turned out well and has a job.

                          ~formerly Master Tally~

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            I have seen one or two Fresian crosses that were~okay. I'm horse shopping with a student right now and we've seen several Fresian crosses (a couple of Fresian/Saddlebred), and every single one of them looked like they were put together by committee. That doen't mean they *couldn't* perform, it just means that it will likely be more difficult for them. I see alot of badly set necks and weak lower backs in the horses.
                            -Karen

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                            • #94
                              Actually you said:
                              "But again, knowing what I know of the parents, and seeing the way that baby is put together, I think that it is going to be an unattractive mish-mash as an adult."
                              And:
                              "I'd bet money that the QH/Fresian cross yearling on the website is going to look as bizarre as an adult as it does as a yearling."

                              Which just plain isn't true. You are entitled to your opinion but those statements are not what has happened in reality. Just for your information, the horse has been ridden too, just not shown. He is as fabulous undersaddle as in harness.
                              Oh and also:
                              "Yes, he could make a nice lower level dressage or eventing mount. That is what I meant by "pleasure horse".

                              Isn't this where the majority of the warmbloods end up anyway (as well as lower level jumpers/hunters)? Why is he suddenly condemned for the same thing? If people shouldn't be breeding for this purpose than maybe 90% of the WB breeders need to hang it up.
                              +++++
                              visit http://www.starsandstripeswelsh.com
                              http://ziggyrocks.blogspot.com

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                              • #95
                                Guys, it is no use ... The entire U.S. Equestrian Team could bring home the Gold on Friesian crosses and they would still be second class horses to die-hard Warmblood fans. Just let it go...
                                \"For all those men who say, \"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free,\" here\'s an update for you: Nowadays 80% of women are against marriage. Why? Because women realize it\'s not worth buying an entire pig just to get a little sausage.\"-

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                                • #96
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -ponybreath-:
                                  Isn't this where the majority of the warmbloods end up anyway (as well as lower level jumpers/hunters)? Why is he suddenly condemned for the same thing? If people shouldn't be breeding for this purpose than maybe 90% of the WB breeders need to hang it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Good point. How many people here have bred horses that went on to compete at the Olympics? No one that I know of. Since the Olympics are the be all and end all of everyone everywhere PERIOD , I guess we should ALL hang it up!

                                  People will undoubtedly say that the Friesian/QH cross was a "fluke." It was just luck that he turned out OK. Uhhh, the same can be said of all horses! A good rule of thumb is don't say anything here that you wouldn't want said about your own breeding program. (because there ARE those of us who WILL say those things about YOU!)

                                  Finally, I don't think anyone minds that wanderlust is not a fan of the Friesian cross. Different strokes for different folks! The great thing about this BB is the diversity we all bring. Where else would fans of so many different breeds be able to converse???

                                  But for anyone to pretend that there is anything objective that makes one breed or cross better than another is just plain silly...

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    that has nothing to do with it and they aren't second class horses. and it has nothing to do with being a warmblood fan.

                                    it has a LOT to do with flaunting the rules of the parent organizations that worked so hard to develop and improve friesians in europe, and it has a great, great deal to do with simply selling lower quality horses for huge prices to inexperienced people.

                                    there are some nice crosses, sure, but i have yet to see one. judge horses as individuals, not as breeds, but choose breeds developed for the purpose you are going to use the horse for starters.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      ponybreath, I haven't seen pictures of him as an adult, so I can't say either way. And what you may find attractive, I may not. Or he may be stunning, and I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

                                      It *still* doesn't mean that I have to like the idea of crossing Friesians with quarter horses. So stop beating a dead horse.

                                      SummitTB, the irony of your statement is that I'm not even a die-hard warmblood fan. I have, by choice, two very well-bred, full TBs.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
                                        I have, by choice, two very well-bred, full TBs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Uh oh. You do realize that TBs were developed for racing, right???

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lexiboo:
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
                                          I have, by choice, two very well-bred, full TBs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Uh oh. You do realize that TBs were developed for racing, right??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Oh, no... I forgot about that! I guess I'll have send them back immediately.

                                          ~formerly Master Tally~

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