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There are no Arabians in America...

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Not quite--they were Blue Star if they were documentably pure desert stock and had no documented Ma’naqi blood, and Blue List if they had Ma'naqi elements.


    Here's one of mine.[ATTACH=CONFIG]38819[/ATTACH]
    Thank you. It is over the Muniqui lines...wind gusts up to 110 mph today and I think it blew part of my memory out of my head. Thank you for clearly stating what I should have about this group of horses.
    The Elephant in the room

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
      The "General List" or registered Arabians are those whose pedigrees are suspect by the purist fanatics (of which I am one).

      A big piece of this is Skowronek blood.
      While I love a lot of his descendants (one of the best horses I've ever owned was linebred Skowronek on his dam's side), there is a TB mare in the pedigree.

      Al Khamsa is an excellent source of information on the subject of asil breeding.
      Yikes...War can now be declared.

      Ms. Jane, while not of the belief Skowronek was pure did create a sublist and she did believe he was a genetic mutation and therefore sired to the type he was. Anyone wanting to read more can go to The Egyptian Breeders Network and look back several pages. There is usually a yearly debate over the purity of Skowronek, and or numerous others. It is very informative and I am in awe as to the research so many of the posters are actively engaged in..especially with like minded owners who live in Syria, Egypt, Saudi, Tunisia and so many war zones like Iran and Iraq.

      It is wonderful when horses, or any breed, can bridge a gap and give we humans a common reference point to learn more about those of us suffering from "the human condition"
      The Elephant in the room

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
        Yikes...War can now be declared.

        Ms. Jane, while not of the belief Skowronek was pure did create a sublist and she did believe he was a genetic mutation and therefore sired to the type he was. Anyone wanting to read more can go to The Egyptian Breeders Network and look back several pages. There is usually a yearly debate over the purity of Skowronek, and or numerous others. It is very informative and I am in awe as to the research so many of the posters are actively engaged in..especially with like minded owners who live in Syria, Egypt, Saudi, Tunisia and so many war zones like Iran and Iraq.

        It is wonderful when horses, or any breed, can bridge a gap and give we humans a common reference point to learn more about those of us suffering from "the human condition"
        I don't think war is necessary.
        There are two different paths here, which need not be in conflict with one another.

        One is preservation of pure desert blood; the other is the breeding of useful and beautiful horses which may or may not be documentably asil.

        The thing is, if the bloodlines aren't preserved, the opportunity to use that blood in new ways is also lost.

        Skowronek was magnificent. His prepotency is right up there with Justin Morgan's.
        But he wasn't straight desert blood.

        He came from a different philosophy of breeding. The same European mindset that gave us the various warmblood registries.
        In other words, if you need to add an outside influence to get something you want, do it.

        There is nothing wrong with that philosophy.
        Unless you are also interested in the culture that produced the original blood, and in their concept of what constitutes an asil animal.
        As my late friend Joyce would point out, there is pretty much just black and white in the desert; very few shades of grey. A thing is or is not.

        If that aspect of the Arabian horse is of no concern to an individual, so be it. It does not make the General List horses any less beautiful or athletic. It does not exclude those horses from the registry or the showring. It just means that they are not considered asil by those who care about such things.
        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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        • #44
          Bumped because this is a hilarious (esp. page 1) and informative thread. :-)
          PA Hi-Ly Visible [PA Hi-Noon (by Magnum Psyche) x Takara Padrona (by *Padron)]

          Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

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          • #45
            Originally posted by californianinkansas View Post
            Bumped because this is a hilarious (esp. page 1) and informative thread. :-)
            SHN is coming so we will be needing pics, yes? Of more fake Arabs?

            Comment


            • #46
              I used to own two pure Davenport Arabians. For some reason they were never Blue Starred even though they were PURE, though they were Blue Listed. All lines of my horses traced back to the Davenport and Hamadie importations (there was some confusion in the earlier part of the 20th century, finally cleared up with the DNA testing.)
              I love all Arabs. But the Davenports were DIFFERENT, different in the head, different in the neck, shoulder, withers, croup, back, knees, hocks, etc., just different. Smartest horses I've ever worked with too. They definitely looked Arab, but there was no super refinement, they were more craggy in the head and body, with broad knees and hocks and WITHERS.
              But they are too inbred now, and it shows up. I did a lot of deep pedigree research on the Davenports, each modern Davenport is 25% *Hamrah 28 through his daughters. If I could still own horses (I am disabled) and breed I would probably outcross with Blue Stars, just to get some hybrid vigour in.
              I adore Arabs of pure blood. Al Khamsa rules!

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Jackie Cochran View Post
                I used to own two pure Davenport Arabians. For some reason they were never Blue Starred even though they were PURE, though they were Blue Listed. All lines of my horses traced back to the Davenport and Hamadie importations (there was some confusion in the earlier part of the 20th century, finally cleared up with the DNA testing.)
                I love all Arabs. But the Davenports were DIFFERENT, different in the head, different in the neck, shoulder, withers, croup, back, knees, hocks, etc., just different. Smartest horses I've ever worked with too. They definitely looked Arab, but there was no super refinement, they were more craggy in the head and body, with broad knees and hocks and WITHERS.
                But they are too inbred now, and it shows up. I did a lot of deep pedigree research on the Davenports, each modern Davenport is 25% *Hamrah 28 through his daughters. If I could still own horses (I am disabled) and breed I would probably outcross with Blue Stars, just to get some hybrid vigour in.
                Not sure what you mean by "now". The Second Foundation was gathered up in the 1950's, and comprised of about 16 horses. Hard to avoid a significant coefficient of inbreeding there.

                There has been a concerted effort, spearheaded by the Cravers, to keep as much genetic diversity in the Davenports as possible. We are trying to preserve as many sire and dam lines as humanly possible.

                There are also people working on what is conveniently referred to as "Davenport-plus" breeding programs, as well as those folks breeding "Sharps" (Al Khamsa horses with no lines to the Blunts' stock.) Many of those have some degree of Davenport blood.

                As for why they were Blue List and not Blue Star--Miss Jane Ott's list, Miss Jane Ott's perogative to do it whichever way she wanted.
                I'm too lazy to try and dig out my Catalog and see what her explanation, if any, was.

                PS--The Davenports *are* still different!
                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                Comment


                • #48
                  This thread is like the best college lecture or symposium on the finer details of Arabian horse history. *happy clap*
                  PA Hi-Ly Visible [PA Hi-Noon (by Magnum Psyche) x Takara Padrona (by *Padron)]

                  Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Another interesting sort of mess was with the Arabian horses in Spain, most notably the Veragua mares. During the revolution (which also had something to do with the Arabian horses) some of the paperwork was lost on mares belonging to the Duke of Veragua. All were considered to be purebred but nobody knew which mare was which. To this day, if you look back in Spanish pedigrees, you will find the term Veragua Mare (or V. mare) rather than a name. Some folks pitched a fit about it because the mares couldn't be exactly identified as to pedigree, but eventually they were accepted.
                    "Argue for your limitations and you get to keep them."
                    -Richard S. Bach

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                    • #50
                      Lovely trot on your mare...bet she's a fun ride.

                      Maybe your k-i-a friend is thinking of Throughbreds stemming from 3 Arabians and therefore they are fake TBs, not vice versa.

                      Being a 40 yr. Arabian horse enthusiast, I hate to see the dysfunctional changes in the current horses. They were built to suck the wind and float across the sand...sorry the high stepping and the small muzzled "arabian" doesn't fit my image.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Old thread, but I loved the Crabbet Arabs. I went to college only 62 miles from Lewisfield, where a lot of the Crabbet Arabs were in residence. I often visited the farm since I dated a guy at the college in that town. I always wanted an Arabian but I was too tall by 12 yoa. My Hessen has 20% Arab blood (but his only arab "look" is his ears) and my Trak has lots more Arab blood, with that Arab head and nose. I've boarded at 2 barns where there were very typey arab geldings. I was never a fan of the polish arabs, although they were taller. I loved the desert bred types.

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by MyssMyst View Post
                          VERY nice breeding indeed.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                            Not sure what you mean by "now". The Second Foundation was gathered up in the 1950's, and comprised of about 16 horses. Hard to avoid a significant coefficient of inbreeding there.

                            There has been a concerted effort, spearheaded by the Cravers, to keep as much genetic diversity in the Davenports as possible. We are trying to preserve as many sire and dam lines as humanly possible.

                            There are also people working on what is conveniently referred to as "Davenport-plus" breeding programs, as well as those folks breeding "Sharps" (Al Khamsa horses with no lines to the Blunts' stock.) Many of those have some degree of Davenport blood.

                            As for why they were Blue List and not Blue Star--Miss Jane Ott's list, Miss Jane Ott's perogative to do it whichever way she wanted.
                            I'm too lazy to try and dig out my Catalog and see what her explanation, if any, was.

                            PS--The Davenports *are* still different!
                            I finally found out years ago that Jane Ott, on the basis of a horrible photograph, decided that *Wadduda 30 was a Muniqi and not a Saqlawi Al-Abd.

                            I totally admire Craver's preservation of the Davenports. I first visited his farm over 30 years ago, I can still remember my total amazement of going through an Arabian breeding farm where I wanted to own ALL the horses. You see, my first horse was an unregistered Anglo-Arab, and I, having followed the Arabian Horse World since 1965, looked at every Arab I could find trying to figure out my horse's Arab line. Then, walking to the stallion barn at Craver's, there was a horse that looked JUST LIKE my beloved gelding! Same color, same neck, withers, croup, but with a more Arab head and with better legs! My mouth literally fell open, I finally found the Arab breeding group I wanted horses from! Horses with substance, good broad leg joints, withers, short cannon bones, who also looked totally ARABIAN.

                            However my mare had *Abeya 30's long, soft, super sloping pasterns which ended up breaking down in her early 20's. Then when I started visiting breeding Davenport breeding farms I started noticing that the young foals had whole body shaking, there was no way that they would have survived in the Middle Eastern desert if there were forced marches. If I had not been so badly disabled by my MS I would have kept on trying to breed the Davenports. I was trying the nearest thing to an outcross in the Davenport herd, Hadban sire x K. Haifi 3rd generation pure in strain mare, but since my stallion's grandfathers were Tripoli and El Alamein and one granddam was Dhalana, all HEAVILY line bred in my mare, the only outcross was the dam line to *Hadba. However my MS and a long run of bad luck (starting when my stallion died young) put an end to my dreams of breeding Arabians.

                            I will always love the Davenports above all other horses. They are almost everything I ever wanted from a horse, disposition, intelligence, Arab type without the super-refinement. Great horses. Craver has done a great job in keeping this breeding group pure. Did you ever get to see his skull collection?

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by analise View Post
                              Just going to say, I had at least one "book of horse breeds" as a kid that specifically did refer to palomino horses and pinto horses as separate breeds (okay, they may have said Paint instead of pinto, I don't recall now and don't have the book anymore) and not just a particularly color/pattern. So there are at least some references out there that refer to them as such.
                              Palomino is a registry and palomino is a color just like Pinto is a registry and pinto is a color. Back in the 1960-1980s books of horse breeds there was no distinction between Breeds and Registries. There maybe still isn't. Because then you would have to stop and explain why a Warmblood horse could be accepted into several different books which is something I understand perfectly in concept and would never pretend to discuss in any detail.
                              Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans

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                              • #55
                                On my first visit to Craver Farms, I felt like a kid in a candy store.

                                What was most impressive was Charles and Jeanne's ability to rattle off pedigrees of anyone you pointed at, and effortlessly compare this aspect of conformation with that and which side of the family what aspect of conformation or personality came from.

                                Charles is one of the most natural riders I've ever seen.
                                It's also awesome to talk horses with someone who knew Alice Payne and Richard Pritzlaff and Carl Raswan.
                                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  In the third grade, back when I was in an atrocious public school, I selected Arabian horses as an essay topic. When I was read my essay in front of the class, my teacher (who was a subarbun dweller with NO experience around horses) told me that I was wrong when I listed common grey and bay/brown as common coat colors (which I got from two different horse encyclopedias, as well as having actually been around the animals). The teacher blurted out:

                                  "No! The most common color is black."

                                  I couldn't help but laugh and shake my head. I still wonder where she got that from, I always figured she must have watched the Black Stallion.

                                  "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester

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