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Stalkers, Jail Time for selling your horse and more ....yes, about Carriage Horses

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  • #21
    In some cases the 'steam' that comes out of manholes in the winter is solely because what is in the manhole is much warmer than the outside air, not because there is steam being transmitted under that specific manhole.

    There are combination sewers (storm water and sanitary waste travel in the same pipes) in various places in the city I am in and during the winter there is frequently a steam look coming out of those manholes. The steam is not even close to warm.

    Comment


    • #22
      The carriage people have bullied and carried on like mean girls in high school. They have, in my google research, posted that the Foret woman is "Lizzie Fecal." lot of poor class by the carriage people. I'm not on FB, so I don't know what they've done there.

      The fact that a NYTimes reporter listened to what Eva Hughes said, and then did her own investigation and found that things were NOT what Hughes said they were, should show everyone that the carriage trade in NYC if full of lies and deceit and dead horses. It's that some people resent the government, resent rules and regulations, and resent being caught breaking the rules and regulations. The government is not out to get everyone. The "mainstream" news media, as the right wing calls them, is not hiding the facts. The Constitution does not allow animal owners the right to do whatever they want to. If anyone has studied Con Law (and yes I have, plus seminars of 2 and 3 weeks every year for over 28 yrs) they would know that the Constitution did not apply to "women, children, and idiots, " much less to blacks, who were considered property. The Courts have interpreted the constitution and have expanded rights of people. In addition to the amendments to the Constitution. It really is weird that Cothers who are white women don't want government regulation of any animal treatment. If you don't want the government, don't take tax breaks or drive on the roads or use any services provided by the local or state of federal governments. Live in the deep wood and butcher your animals.

      Violators of municipal ordinances can be fined and jailed. Anyone with a law degree knows that. So if NYC determines than someone has violated an ordinance pertaining to carriage horses, then the violators can be prosecuted.

      And "how come" the carriage people are treated better than the pedicabs? They don't have to pay as much for fees and insurance as do the pedicab drivers. One would think carriages with horses would be more regulated than people peddling bikes. so apparently the Quinn In by the carriage people on the city council in NYC benefited the carriage people, as they were using the government of city council to save money which the pedicab guys didn't have political influence.

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      • #23
        LOL - how telling of someone who knows nothing about horses: If he was upset by the 'steam' coming up from the manhole cover, he'd MOVE! He's so relaxed he's cocked a hind leg. LOL!

        Comment


        • #24
          Just to get the convo back on track, would love to hear thoughts on this excerpt from Lying Lizzie's missive:

          "We would like to see an amendment to the existing bill Intro 92 that would provide jail time or hefty fines to owners if they do not abide by the law and find the right homes for their horses. It must be illegal to bring/sell the horses to dealers or directly to New Holland."
          VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

          https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

          Comment


          • #25
            "We would like to see an amendment to the existing bill Intro 92 that would provide jail time or hefty fines to owners if they do not abide by the law and find the right homes for their horses. It must be illegal to bring/sell the horses to dealers or directly to New Holland."
            I am confused why they make such a big deal out of it. Why is it that you are not allowed to keep your own horse even if you are not driving in NYC? How does one decide what the right home is?

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Tripsy View Post
              LOL - how telling of someone who knows nothing about horses: If he was upset by the 'steam' coming up from the manhole cover, he'd MOVE! He's so relaxed he's cocked a hind leg. LOL!


              Isn't he good? We are thinking of starting monster clinics
              VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

              https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

              Comment


              • #27
                OY, someone is over due for her meds.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Tripsy View Post
                  OY, someone is over due for her meds.
                  <whistlin'>
                  VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

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                  • #29
                    Its because those who contrived of bill Intro 92 are tyrants or dictators - take your pick. Actually, they are worse than that.

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                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by cloudyandcallie View Post
                      The carriage people have bullied and carried on like mean girls in high school. They have, in my google research, posted that the Foret woman is "Lizzie Fecal." lot of poor class by the carriage people. I'm not on FB, so I don't know what they've done there.
                      They call her a lot of things because on Facebook they cannot call her by name. She uses Google alerts and then when her name comes up on FB by a carriage supporter, she has FB ban the person for harassment, even if it was simply to point out one of her own quotes and said nothing about her personally. The FB bans can be a few hours or a few days or result in permanent banning from the medium.

                      If anyone has studied Con Law (and yes I have, plus seminars of 2 and 3 weeks every year for over 28 yrs)
                      Then with your EXTENSIVE legal background, I am sure every lawyer and every DA (even retired DAs) are aware of terms such as "libel"...."hearsay" How about this....you with your legal definition tell us what those terms are and then tell me how you are not committing them?

                      Violators of municipal ordinances can be fined and jailed. Anyone with a law degree knows that. So if NYC determines than someone has violated an ordinance pertaining to carriage horses, then the violators can be prosecuted.
                      Except, there is not a municipal ordinance, they want to create an ordinance in order to do this. They want to discriminate against the carriage drivers and not have this ordinance apply to every other horse owner in NYC. How is it right for them to discriminate? And if they DO create the ordinance and apply it to all NYC horse owners, how do you think THAT would go over?

                      And "how come" the carriage people are treated better than the pedicabs? They don't have to pay as much for fees and insurance as do the pedicab drivers. One would think carriages with horses would be more regulated than people peddling bikes. so apparently the Quinn In by the carriage people on the city council in NYC benefited the carriage people, as they were using the government of city council to save money which the pedicab guys didn't have political influence.
                      Hmmmm. don't know the answer to that one, but I would assume the insurance cost issue has to do with risk? Are there statistics for pedicab accidents? How many agencies do Pedicab drivers have to report to and be licensed with to ensure safety? Those poor, poor Pedicab drivers, they have to pay so much, maybe that is why they are ripping off Carriage customers with a bait-and-switch scheme?
                      http://nypost.com/2013/08/21/sleazy-...lure-tourists/
                      Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                      Bernard M. Baruch

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                        I am confused why they make such a big deal out of it. Why is it that you are not allowed to keep your own horse even if you are not driving in NYC? How does one decide what the right home is?
                        It's a big deal because these groups have decided that the carriage horses have worked hard enough and long enough and all must be permanently retired immediately. The right home has been determined (per the proposed legislation) as one in which nobody will ever ride or drive the horse again, regardless of the age, health, or soundness of the horse, or the consequences to the horse of going from light work every day to being a pasture puff.

                        It sounds absurd, doesn't it? You are thinking that there must be more to it, they can't really mean to take hundreds of healthy working horses and force them into retirement. But it's exactly what the groups are attempting, except now Elizabeth Forel wants the legislation backed up with jail time and heavy fines.

                        It’s hard for me to understand why all horse folks aren’t concerned about a NYC mayoral candidate ending a legal and humane horse business in his jurisdiction. It’s even harder to understand why horse folks aren’t up in arms about proposed legislation that would determine to whom you can sell – or give - your horse, and require permanent retirement of hundreds of sound and healthy working horses. Doesn’t the concept of precedent bother anyone? Is everyone so sure it can’t happen to them?

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by michaleenflynn View Post
                          Just to get the convo back on track, would love to hear thoughts on this excerpt from Lying Lizzie's missive:

                          "We would like to see an amendment to the existing bill Intro 92 that would provide jail time or hefty fines to owners if they do not abide by the law and find the right homes for their horses. It must be illegal to bring/sell the horses to dealers or directly to New Holland."
                          Many of the TB tracks have a similar policy in place re: the owner directly selling to slaughter. Those policies go largely un-enforced for a myriad of reasons.

                          I would imagine even if a similar policy was in place for NYC Carriage horses that enforcement would be as low a priority with as many hurdles for those wanting it enforced, including but not limited to proving that in fact the owner sold the horse, knowingly, to a dealer/slaughter buyer, 'unright home'.


                          Originally posted by Paragon View Post
                          It came from their latest email list.

                          http://archive.constantcontact.com/f...005055750.html

                          Read and enjoy. (And note that we can all buy fancy t-shirts, the proceeds of which will NOT GO TO HELPING ANY HORSE, EVER. But they might buy some new glossy signs.)

                          Two can play this, sell T-shirts to raise funds, game.
                          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

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                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            I just want to point out that Forel is in bed with PETA and has met in person with Ingrid Newkirk to discuss the carriage horses. Forel is against "enslavement" of horses and horses used for sport and entertainment purposes.
                            http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animal...r-work-horses/
                            Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                            Bernard M. Baruch

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by RubyTuesday View Post
                              Yeah, and steam can also rise from anything that is warmer when cold air sets in. I know someone who had the fire department called on her because her horses were warm in their blankets and were "steaming" on a cold and bright winter morning. Some idiot driver called the fire department and reported that there were horses in a field that were on fire.
                              Except that it's not steam. They are exploding. There's a big difference.

                              I get that you don't think it's a big deal, but I sure wouldn't park my car over one.

                              http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-manhole/?_r=0

                              http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/05/...r-in-brooklyn/

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Her proposition certainly opens a can of worms concerning property rights and horse ownership.

                                Can a municipality make ordinances against one facet of horse ownership , creating laws that specify how and where they are to sell their personal property?

                                I would be very nervous as an animal owner in general if something like that passed. Even if it was carriage horse specific.
                                "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  can't say I appreciate this post. Its disturbing. Who ever wrote this misses the most important fact: The horse-drawn carriage industry here in the US is a legal business. The regulations they operate under were set in cooperation with the ASPCA which oversees this business. This business has never once been cited for abuse. Their safety record is stellar - especially as compared to all other equine disciplines. It is also very disturbing that lunatics such as those affiliated with PETA and NYCLASS, are allowed to harass the drivers and their families and to post lies about the industry. I don't think that's addressed in the Constitution either. How about the right for these decent, hard working people to operate their business in peace? There is mention of "...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration of Independence. And everyone knows, "Happiness is Owning a Horse." I know this because when I was 12 my mommy gave me a poster of a pony and that was in big letters at the bottom of the poster.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
                                    Her proposition certainly opens a can of worms considering property rights and horse ownership.

                                    Can a municipality make ordinances against one facet of horse ownership , creating laws that specify how and where they are to sell their personal property.

                                    I would be very nervous as an animal owner in general if something like that passed. Even if it was carriage horse specific.
                                    this
                                    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                                    Bernard M. Baruch

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
                                      Many of the TB tracks have a similar policy in place re: the owner directly selling to slaughter. Those policies go largely un-enforced for a myriad of reasons.
                                      I would imagine even if a similar policy was in place for NYC Carriage horses that enforcement would be as low a priority with as many hurdles for those wanting it enforced, including but not limited to proving that in fact the owner sold the horse, knowingly, to a dealer/slaughter buyer, 'unright home'.
                                      Two can play this, sell T-shirts to raise funds, game.
                                      The most significant difference between the TB situation and the NYC carriage horse situation is that unlike in the racing industry, the proposed NYC legislation completely ends all horse and carriage operations, while the racing industry continues.

                                      As to proving that the owner knew the horse was being sold to an "unright" home, the new owner per the legislation is required to sign a contact that the horse will never be anything other than a companion animal, and specifies no riding, driving, or any other "work".

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
                                        Many of the TB tracks have a similar policy in place re: the owner directly selling to slaughter. .
                                        No.

                                        This is proposed local LAW, not a policy within a private industry.

                                        And this isn't only about 'selling to slaughter' (which none of us do anyway), it is about selling to ANYONE who will do anything with the horse other than use it as expensive decoration.
                                        VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                                        https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View PostMany of the TB tracks have a similar policy in place re: the owner directly selling to slaughter. Those policies go largely un-enforced for a myriad of reasons.
                                          I would imagine even if a similar policy was in place for NYC Carriage horses that enforcement would be as low a priority with as many hurdles for those wanting it enforced, including but not limited to proving that in fact the owner sold the horse, knowingly, to a dealer/slaughter buyer, 'unright home'.
                                          Two can play this, sell T-shirts to raise funds, game.
                                          No.

                                          The policy's put forth at tracks discipline the trainers/owners within their own private industry. Sell a horse to XYZ directly and you loose stall privileges /your ability to run horses at that track. Track polices policed by the private organizations.

                                          They do not put them in jail nor rely on any other government controlled punitive system.

                                          It would be the similar only if the NY Carriage Horse Association set up those regulations and those that voluntarily were members were asked to comply.
                                          "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

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