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Is This the Way to Introduce a Horse to a Saddle?

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  • #41
    The girls...dear god. I work in a high school and I couldn't handle the screeching.

    I think it's stupid to saddle a horse and let it "work it out" when it's a new feeling. It might work, but it might also cause a wreck and why take that risk? When you introduce fly spray you don't run about screaming and squealing, chasing it with the bottle....why would it be any different with the saddling experience?

    It's great that it worked out but the girl posting the videos has such an ego still, that she doesn't admit that it wasn't the best idea. Whether she learns from it or not, who will know. The pony looks like a doll, so she has some talent...just crazy friends who I would boot off the property for my own sanity.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Bluey View Post
      Why do it the hard way, when it is so easy to just work one at the time and get them going and make good horses without all that showboating and taking the chances your horse get hurt or get in a wreck that then you have to back off to get him over it?

      I have known too many horses started like that that have a bucking problem, that would not have if they had not been taught to buck and let practice it so well from the start.
      Just ask any cowboy around.

      While there are many, many ways you can start colts, KISS applies to that also.

      My point, there are some easier, better, more sensible ways than others.

      When I was being taught to start colts as a teenager and started many and later taught apprentices how to, we made it clear what we did and why.
      If someone had been starting colts that bucked, that was unacceptable, it meant that one person was doing something wrong.

      Teaching a horse how to respond to us first, then using that to have them accept a saddle without fireworks and for that keeping it under control, that was so basic I am surprised when some break that rule, as those girls did AND then wonder why the horse acted up.

      You mention rank colts?
      If that had truly been one, it would have gone thru that weak board fence whyle bucking blindly without a second thought.
      Good that it was a fairly quiet, soft little mare and sensible enough to, even bucking violently, respect that flimsy fence.

      Whatever anyone believes, I hope anyone reading this will at least stop and think before they do something if that really makes sense or how else they may do it.
      The more you talk, the more you reveal you have no idea what you are talking about. Forget the girls, they don't know either..Forgot about the problem of turning them loose or not.
      Your entire premise is wrong. A horse bucking once does not teach them to buck! That idea has, through empirical observations by hundreds of good hands, pretty much been debunked. That is not how a horse learns. They are not "practicing". They don't even like it, that is why they stop bucking, by learning to go forward. If you were correct, there would be hundreds ir not more of horses out there bucking people off on a daily basis.

      Ever tried taking one that bucks once and teach him buck some more?. There are horses picked for bronc riding that won't buck, no matter how hard they try, they end up ranch horses.
      Further, you cannot possibly know that horses you know with a bucking problem were that way because they were started that way. Maybe they were just started poorly by inept people. There are plenty of other reasons. But your going to hang on to that like it's gospel. You don't like the method, because you do not understand it. Not to beat you up so bad, I am sure you want the best for the horse, and want them to get gentle. So do I. This bucking thing is just not the problem you are making it.
      It is a pretty easy for trainers to blame the guy before on their own inabilities.
      Your comments reflect that you don't really know what to do with a horse that bucks anyway. You probably can't ride them. It is one thing to say, damn, I don't wont him to buck when I ride him. I sure don't, and I don't encourage it. That is what you don't seem to understand. You are not encouraging him to buck, by "letting him buck". You are actually making it safer to ride. He is learning he doesn't need to buck. But we are not encouraging him to buck!
      A far as "the hard way", those horses in that video will probably be ridden that day. By the third day, you can be out checking cattle. I'm sure you see it as a ridiculous, unnecessary rodeo. It's not. It goes pretty smoothly. But you have to be a hand. Some "cowboys" are not hands.
      As far as asking any cowboy,I also pretty sure you don't know any real cowboys, or buckaroos, or anything about ranch work, or these kind of horses.
      As far as your opinion of Ray Hunt, you couldn't carry his coffee.

      Comment


      • #43
        I'm happy to see that most people on this thread aren't chastising these girls. While not the best outcome, I don't see that what happened negatively effected that pony at all.

        (And I agree with Wirt and think Bluey is full of it. Some horses buck when started. what really matters isn't that they buck, but how it's handled. )
        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

        Comment


        • #44
          Well...I was lurking in the background out of curiosity but figured I'd add in my two cents. I think the girls did a good job. I might have kept a lunge line on the horse the first time in case it got caught up in the fence. I am no professional but have broken a few horses. Some bucked and some did not. There did not seem to be a correlation between whether they bucked during one of the first saddle sessions and what you ended up with once they were being ridden. One mare was truly a nightmare when we first started, never bucked again to my knowledge (she was sold outside of our barn when she was 12).

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Scratch N Dent View Post
            Well...I was lurking in the background out of curiosity but figured I'd add in my two cents. I think the girls did a good job. I might have kept a lunge line on the horse the first time in case it got caught up in the fence. I am no professional but have broken a few horses. Some bucked and some did not. There did not seem to be a correlation between whether they bucked during one of the first saddle sessions and what you ended up with once they were being ridden. One mare was truly a nightmare when we first started, never bucked again to my knowledge (she was sold outside of our barn when she was 12).
            Yes. The only crime those gals committed was their naivety. It didn't even occur to them that could happen. How do you get good judgement? From experience. How do you get experience? From bad judgement.

            Comment


            • #46
              I've broken horses that have never bucked under saddle. Given the right amount of time, they got used to the pressure, the feel, etc. I have also had the occasional horse who has been fine when the saddle is put on in the round pen, does fine getting lead in the pasture, but once the lead line is off, runs around the round pen and bucks.

              Sometimes, horses just buck. As long as they aren't panicking, rearing, etc., then I tend take it in stride.

              Ditto with the trainer/lunge whip comment. I would have gotten beaten like a red-headed step-child if I had screamed like that.
              You're trying to do something normal people wouldn't do because they're terrified they might fail. -Boyd Martin

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Wirt View Post
                The more you talk, the more you reveal you have no idea what you are talking about. Forget the girls, they don't know either..Forgot about the problem of turning them loose or not.
                Your entire premise is wrong. A horse bucking once does not teach them to buck! That idea has, through empirical observations by hundreds of good hands, pretty much been debunked. That is not how a horse learns. They are not "practicing". They don't even like it, that is why they stop bucking, by learning to go forward. If you were correct, there would be hundreds ir not more of horses out there bucking people off on a daily basis.

                Ever tried taking one that bucks once and teach him buck some more?. There are horses picked for bronc riding that won't buck, no matter how hard they try, they end up ranch horses.
                Further, you cannot possibly know that horses you know with a bucking problem were that way because they were started that way. Maybe they were just started poorly by inept people. There are plenty of other reasons. But your going to hang on to that like it's gospel. You don't like the method, because you do not understand it. Not to beat you up so bad, I am sure you want the best for the horse, and want them to get gentle. So do I. This bucking thing is just not the problem you are making it.
                It is a pretty easy for trainers to blame the guy before on their own inabilities.
                Your comments reflect that you don't really know what to do with a horse that bucks anyway. You probably can't ride them. It is one thing to say, damn, I don't wont him to buck when I ride him. I sure don't, and I don't encourage it. That is what you don't seem to understand. You are not encouraging him to buck, by "letting him buck". You are actually making it safer to ride. He is learning he doesn't need to buck. But we are not encouraging him to buck!
                A far as "the hard way", those horses in that video will probably be ridden that day. By the third day, you can be out checking cattle. I'm sure you see it as a ridiculous, unnecessary rodeo. It's not. It goes pretty smoothly. But you have to be a hand. Some "cowboys" are not hands.
                As far as asking any cowboy,I also pretty sure you don't know any real cowboys, or buckaroos, or anything about ranch work, or these kind of horses.
                As far as your opinion of Ray Hunt, you couldn't carry his coffee.

                Read for comprehension, I watched RH never get that colt to quit bucking for two days he tried it.

                All I am saying is, why not teach horses right from the start?
                Why permit something you don't want your horse to do, like letting a horse buck when it is saddled for the first few times, by turning it lose or, worse, as so many do, shoo them off and so set them off to bucking, when it is UTTERLY unnecessary?

                Sure, many will eventually realize they don't have to buck, but those that keep on bucking, those are the ones they bring to me.

                Decades ago, a cowboy called me about this neat little bay four year old son of Docs Prescription out of a Waggoner 101 mare.
                An old, retired cowboy had tried to start him and never could get him ridden, he just bucked all the time.
                The cowboy used him that spring and ponied him from his other mount, for several miles, to the works, then rode the heck of him all day and the colt still was bucking at the end of it.
                He knew I had good luck with those colts, offered him to me and I bought him.
                The first time I rode him, thankfully in my English saddle, as I did new horses that may act up, we were moving cattle and kept cutting the slow/poor doers back and drove them coming back to the pens.
                The colt seemed very quiet and was not doing anything silly, but felt very light and athletic and with his history, I was watching him.
                As we trotted around the corner to get the gate, he swallowed his head and broke in two and had me in front of the saddle the first jump, behind it the second, back in the middle and very loose the third and stopped, shying at the self feeder he just spotted to the side.
                One more of those no head twisting bucks and he may had me off, because by then I sure was not expecting anything and he caught me by surprise.

                I used that horse all summer checking cattle and shipping that fall and had him where he never bucked, but he sure would have liked to a few times.
                The assistant manager of a local feedlot was receiving some of the cattle that fall, liked the colt, asked about him and I told him he would get fresh and if you didn't watch him, he could buck very good.

                Well, he still liked him and bought him.
                I warned him to have a cowboy ride him more in the pens for a while before he used him.
                A few days later, at the local restaurant, we were eating when he came in with the feedlot crew and, before I could ask, they were telling me the colt bucked him off!
                They were going out to take some fresh cattle to wheat pasture right by the feedlot and as they were getting them settled, the colt went to bucking and the assistant manager said "he didn't buck me off, I got off".

                My point of that long winded story, yes, I do work with cowboys, yes, I know when you start a horse, letting him buck and keep bucking, some times you end up with horses that bucking just comes to them much easier than if they had not had that practice, while you were waiting for them to "get over it".

                These girls did well, except when it came to let the horse loose and I hope they learned not to do that next horse they start.

                Or maybe they will listen to those that don't think that matters and keep on having their improvised rodeo fun, until they have a horse that, given a chance to buck, thinks that becomes part of what that horse does when pressured or scared, or worse, have one getting hurt when taking off heedlessly bucking like that.

                Here is Lucky, the horse in the story, that the assistant manager eventually sold to a cowboy, that later told me the horse just never did buck him off, but always was a bit unpredictable:
                Attached Files

                Comment


                • #48
                  Here is some anecdotal evidence for you. I knew someone that worked at Wagoneer Ranch many moons ago. According to him, the philosophy there at the time was that if a horse didn't try to buck you off when you first got on it, it wasn't a good ranch horse. He talked them out of a mare and she always had a buck in her, as did her kids. So the question on the table was - did that colt learn to buck because he was broke badly or did he always have a buck in him?

                  As I stated before, my mare bucked around the roundpen the first time she was loose with the saddle on, but she never bucked with my undersaddle. So, I counter your colt story with my mare story.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    They have the right idea, starting off in the barn as they did. Whomever simply took too big a step in the next step of training.
                    I would have taken the pony to the nice corral/pen and carefully repeated all the barn work in the new environment.
                    There probably should have been 2 or 3 steps, depending on the pony's reaction to each step, between the barn work and the saddleing video.

                    If the pony is good natured and the people are careful the pony will likely turn out fine.
                    They just skipped a couple steps.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Ajierene View Post
                      Here is some anecdotal evidence for you. I knew someone that worked at Wagoneer Ranch many moons ago. According to him, the philosophy there at the time was that if a horse didn't try to buck you off when you first got on it, it wasn't a good ranch horse. He talked them out of a mare and she always had a buck in her, as did her kids. So the question on the table was - did that colt learn to buck because he was broke badly or did he always have a buck in him?

                      As I stated before, my mare bucked around the roundpen the first time she was loose with the saddle on, but she never bucked with my undersaddle. So, I counter your colt story with my mare story.
                      I have sold horses to Waggoner cowboys.
                      Decades ago our ranch traded broodmares with them, as everyone here did.
                      I have heard many say that a horse was no good if he didn't buck, but you know, I think they finally got better educated.

                      Of course you get horses going anyway, but why go there in the first place, other than like this video, some that didn't know any better, yet?
                      For the RH followers, why make the simple harder?

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                        For the RH followers, why make the simple harder?
                        Seriously? If you could write something like that you have giant chip on your shoulder and are pretty ignorant as to what RH, et al are about.
                        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                          Seriously? If you could write something like that you have giant chip on your shoulder and are pretty ignorant as to what RH, et al are about.
                          Seriously? Are YOU familiar with Ray Hunt at all?

                          I was referring to his very often quoted phrase: "Make the right things easy, the wrong difficult":

                          ---"Recognize the smallest change, the slightest try. Ray Hunt

                          Let your idea become the horse‘s idea. Ray Hunt

                          Make the wrong thing difficult, and the right thing easy. Ray Hunt

                          Confidence is knowing you are prepared. Ray Hunt

                          The horse is a reflection of the rider‘s ability. Ray Hunt

                          The slower you go the faster you will learn. Ray Hunt

                          You need to have a picture in your mind of what you want your horse to do.
                          Ray Hunt

                          The horse will teach you if you‘ll listen. Ray Hunt"---

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                            Seriously? Are YOU familiar with Ray Hunt at all?

                            I was referring to his very often quoted phrase: "Make the right things easy, the wrong difficult":

                            ---"Recognize the smallest change, the slightest try. Ray Hunt

                            Let your idea become the horse‘s idea. Ray Hunt

                            Make the wrong thing difficult, and the right thing easy. Ray Hunt

                            Confidence is knowing you are prepared. Ray Hunt

                            The horse is a reflection of the rider‘s ability. Ray Hunt

                            The slower you go the faster you will learn. Ray Hunt

                            You need to have a picture in your mind of what you want your horse to do.
                            Ray Hunt

                            The horse will teach you if you‘ll listen. Ray Hunt"---
                            Yes, I am familiar with him. I read your statement as sarcasm because you don't seem to respect the man at all.
                            Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                            Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                              Yes, I am familiar with him. I read your statement as sarcasm because you don't seem to respect the man at all.
                              Just remember, assuming is never to be taken for knowing.

                              I expect RH would have had a good laugh with that statement of yours.
                              He is who he is and never pretended to be anything else.
                              I don't think he needs defending.
                              Last edited by Bluey; Sep. 28, 2013, 12:50 PM. Reason: Edited for context.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                Just remember, assuming is never to be taken for knowing.

                                I expect RH would have had a good laugh with that statement of yours.
                                He is who he is and never pretended to be anything else.
                                I don't think he needs defending.
                                I can't figure out if you are being intentionally obtuse. Or you are just really bad at explaining yourself .
                                You definitely insinuated you thought Ray was an idiot, and he got a little better.
                                You also stated that letting a horse buck with the saddle is a stupid thing to do, and it causes horses to learn to buck, and that is what makes buckers. So since that its what Ray does, he is wrong, your right, and Ray is stupid.
                                So where exactly do you stand now?
                                Doesn't sound like you respect Ray at all. Now you are implying you do?

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Wirt View Post
                                  I can't figure out if you are being intentionally obtuse. Or you are just really bad at explaining yourself .
                                  You definitely insinuated you thought Ray was an idiot, and he got a little better.
                                  You also stated that letting a horse buck with the saddle is a stupid thing to do, and it causes horses to learn to buck, and that is what makes buckers. So since that its what Ray does, he is wrong, your right, and Ray is stupid.
                                  So where exactly do you stand now?
                                  Doesn't sound like you respect Ray at all. Now you are implying you do?

                                  It really doesn't matter what I think about RH, either way.
                                  He is not but one of most such trainers that did and some still do spend all that time working with a colt just right to get him saddled without scaring him ... and then turn them loose and shoo them off and wonder why the silly things put on a rodeo!

                                  Can't we not see where that went wrong?

                                  WHY not do it right all the way, the handling the saddling AND the easing out so the colt gets the feel of the saddle as just one more of those things in life that just happen, nothing to it, as we hope they will do the rest of their lives when they are saddled?
                                  Keep them under control so, if they grab themselves, they have learned to listen and not be free to just have their little meltdown, that I have seen get horses hurt with when they run blindly into fences while "getting used to the saddle"?

                                  We can argue until the cows come home about all ways to start colts and that they get started and going anyway, but WHY not do it the easiest way for all, ALL the time, ALL along?

                                  My opinion, for what that is worth, is that the better horsemen are those that can work with horses in a way that looks like watching paint dry.
                                  Nothing happens but what they are asking the horse for, no resistances showing.
                                  They have already, long before they act up, recognized the colt was getting stuck and changed what they were doing so the colt understands and gets going again.
                                  The trick for that, train so you have control and do keep control as much as is possible.
                                  Your horses will thank you when all we do is made clear to them.

                                  Now I will get off my soapbox.

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