Is This the Way to Introduce a Horse to a Saddle?

[Freebird!]

Like others have said - if you break enough horses, you are bound to get one that bucks. Now, that said, I think I would've spent more time laying across the horse's back, without a saddle, and getting him used to a "girth" by using a soft tope first, but that's just the way I like to do it. I personally like to make sure to do everything I can to set them up for success. Saddling up a horse, and letting it loose, IMHO is just asking for a negative reaction. However, I was happy to see the pony settle, and even more happy to see them lunge her in a halter.

[Niennor]

Maybe i judged them too soon.
They did seem to put a fair amount of work into starting this pony.
http://youtu.be/PjbBp22yUg0

[Wirt]

If you do it properly they don't buck!!!!

Wannabes.

That is just a popular platitude. If only it were true. Even if it were true, you make a mistake, and they buck, now what? Ruined forever? Bucking forever? Hardly. What are you going to do now if they did buck.? Would you even know?There is nothing so compellingly brilliant to a horse that will completly over-ride his disposition, character, breeding, tempermant, etc.. The point is, you work the best you can with what you got. You can do everything you possibly can "properly" and you will get different results. If "never let them buck" is your motto, you haven't been around very many tough horses, or your very naive.

[Bluey]

First off, letting a horse buck does not "teach them to buck" This one obviously knows quite well how to buck. Born that way.
Those girls are ignorant and naive. It was good they had her cinched tight enough. But that was probably the best thing for that horse. What was bound to happen was that, since they saddle in the stall first, they thought the horse wouldn't buck. By never getting the horse to move out with the saddle, they would have been lulled into thinking that couldn't happen, and then somebody is bucked off hard.
True, if you are going to turn one loose, then have a good pen, or keep them on a line. But whatever that horse needs to do to get comfortable is important. There was nothing "negative" happening to that horse. In fact, she was doing what she needed to do to get good with it. She wasn't even upset.
To say that if one bucks with the saddle, you haven't prepared them right, is not true. There are things you can do to get the horse ready, but it is not fear of the saddle, or you would never get it on. It is the girth, and how that feels. They need to find its fine. So even if your on a line, you just stay out of their way, try to keep them out of trouble, and let them work it out. For the majority of horses today, that will most likely be the last time they buck like that. For the ones that keep bucking, they were going to keep bucking anyway. So then there are other things you can do. But they have to work it out, and move forward.
Anyone who has never seen a horse buck like that the first saddling, hasn't been around too many. That pony was just fine.

We started 15 feral horses every June and they were good school horses, ready to be used in our string or sold to other riding centers by October and we did our very best to see that there were no mishaps like the one in the video.

No, if you do it right, horses won't buck the first times you saddle them, because you are making sure to control the whole situation and keeping the horse under control with a line, after well taught what is expected, is part of it.

Those kids did what so many do that are not thinking, turning a very green horse loose and then wonder why the horse ran off bucking when something scared it.
Trainer error there.

Later, when you are riding any horse and something sets them off catching you by surprise, then any horse may take off bucking.
IF a horse has learned to buck, had a chance to practice trying to buck the saddle off, that is now one more motor memory that horse has to fall back on, that would not be there if it had not happened.

Next time something sets that one off, it may just as well again take off bucking, it is in that situation a learned behavior we really don't want to have on a riding horse.

I have had horses to re-train that cowboys started bucking out.
You know, as older horses, they are still having their little bucking fit EVERY time they are saddled.
Everyone is fine with it, just a quirk that one horse has, thanks to "let them get used to the saddle" by bucking like mad when first saddled the first few times.

I have seen them hit fences bucking blindly.

Now, that one in the video was not that bad, but I will repeat, it was unnecessary to go there, if the kids had some instruction and not been careless.

Just a good teaching opportunity for those that may want to mess with starting their own horse.
At least will give them more to think about.

[Bluey]

That is just a popular platitude. If only it were true. Even if it were true, you make a mistake, and they buck, now what? Ruined forever? Bucking forever? Hardly. What are you going to do now if they did buck.? Would you even know?There is nothing so compellingly brilliant to a horse that will completly over-ride his disposition, character, breeding, tempermant, etc.. The point is, you work the best you can with what you got. You can do everything you possibly can "properly" and you will get different results. If "never let them buck" is your motto, you haven't been around very many tough horses, or your very naive.

Well, that is my motto and has worked fine for hundreds of horses we have started, in two continents.

I think that those that think it is ok for a horse to show ANY resistance when started, be it bucking or running off, just doesn't has acquired the proper skills to start colts without fireworks, yet.

[Isabeau Z Solace]

Bluey, these kids are not you. They will not live the life you have lived, and they will not have exactly the same experiences. They are learning.

That's part of life.

[Freebird!]

Agreed! Since when is learning, a bad thing? Hopefully next time they will be more attuned to knowing when their horse is ready for a saddle. I've started more babies then I could ever count, starting when I was about 16 or so, and I'm pretty sure I made plenty of dumb mistakes then. Heck, I still do, but I learn from them and move on.

[MMacallister]

On this board I usually hear how we don't let kids do anything like ride bareback through fields or to make mistakes to learn anything. This was not the best way of doing this, but it wasn't the worst either. The girls had the proper equipment, both on them and the pony, and I am sure by the time these girls are done with this pony it will bow, let children crawl all over, wear costumes and jump over anything they can think to create.

I did turn the sound off pretty quick though!

[Wirt]

Well, that is my motto and has worked fine for hundreds of horses we have started, in two continents.

I think that those that think it is ok for a horse to show ANY resistance when started, be it bucking or running off, just doesn't has acquired the proper skills to start colts without fireworks, yet.

Well, you must be a flippin' genius. A regular hand. I guess Ray Hunt had nothing on you.

Resistance is only encountered when you try to interfere with a natural process.
You said,
"IF a horse has learned to buck, had a chance to practice trying to buck the saddle off, that is now one more motor memory that horse has to fall back on, that would not be there if it had not happened."
That's just your opinion, not a fact. He is born with those motor skills, if that's what you're calling them. All the horse has to do is get comfortable, and find out nothing is hurting him.

" have had horses to re-train that cowboys started bucking out.
You know, as older horses, they are still having their little bucking fit EVERY time they are saddled.
Everyone is fine with it, just a quirk that one horse has, thanks to "let them get used to the saddle" by bucking like mad when first saddled the first few times."

Again, that is just BS. There is a huge difference between "bucking one out", and a horse bucking with the saddle the first saddling, if he feels he has to. You can work him in such a way so that he gets fine with him. It has nothing to do with whether or not he bucked once. It doesn't amount to anything.
You may think what "cowboys" do is rough and crude and ruins horses. Maybe you never met a real cowboy. That's like saying, that horse was ruined because he was "dressaged" Now that, I've seen!

[Bluey]

Well, you must be a flippin' genius. A regular hand. I guess Ray Hunt had nothing on you.

Resistance is only encountered when you try to interfere with a natural process.
You said,
"IF a horse has learned to buck, had a chance to practice trying to buck the saddle off, that is now one more motor memory that horse has to fall back on, that would not be there if it had not happened."
That's just your opinion, not a fact. He is born with those motor skills, if that's what you're calling them. All the horse has to do is get comfortable, and find out nothing is hurting him.

" have had horses to re-train that cowboys started bucking out.
You know, as older horses, they are still having their little bucking fit EVERY time they are saddled.
Everyone is fine with it, just a quirk that one horse has, thanks to "let them get used to the saddle" by bucking like mad when first saddled the first few times."

Again, that is just BS. There is a huge difference between "bucking one out", and a horse bucking with the saddle the first saddling, if he feels he has to. You can work him in such a way so that he gets fine with him. It has nothing to do with whether or not he bucked once. It doesn't amount to anything.
You may think what "cowboys" do is rough and crude and ruins horses. Maybe you never met a real cowboy. That's like saying, that horse was ruined because he was "dressaged" Now that, I've seen!

I have re-trained horses that were started with the "let them buck out, they will get over it", that never did on their own, took working them thru that little trick they learned.
Some of them were always quick to pull that well rehearsed bucking trick any one other time.

I say for a horse to be given chances, even encourage them to buck at any time, is like teaching someone to dance.
Sure, any horse can buck, any human can dance, but if you get to practice it and make that part of your motor memory, well, you may just get better at it, right?
Who would want their riding horse be good at bucking when things don't suit it?

Yes, I spent my life starting colts and re-training horses others had started and am very opinionated about only teaching horses what I need them to know.

You bring Ray Hunt into this?
I saw RH do just that in a two day clinic, with this very nice quiet black colt someone had already gentle and halter broke, that RH was going to show everyone how to start colts with.
He worked wonderfully to get him saddled, then the idiot, that is the only word for that, turned him loose in that portable round pen and shooed him on.
The horse spent the next 45 minutes bucking hard and hitting panels and trying to climb out of that pen, getting more and more wild and scared.
RH kept saying he would get over it, but obviously he was not.
RH quit him eventually and said he would be fine next morning and went on with the clinic.
Next morning, a repeat of the same, the colt never did quit bucking and RH finally said he just was going to take longer, some just do.
Yes, some just do, if the nincompoop trainer can only do one thing when starting colts and colts either make it or not.

Not really too impressed at all with people that do the same and expect different results.
The second day, several just left, shaking their heads.

That was the first year RH was on the road giving clinics, early 1970's if I remember right.
He came back the next year and not hardly anyone attended that clinic, the first year was so bad, the riding part even more ridiculous, like to get a filly to back, RH told the cowboy to take a good hold and RAN at her waving his hands.
RH did that a time or two again, the cowboy almost falling of the first time, when she of course sold out.
After the first time or two, she would not come close to that maniac again.

I am sure in the later years he surely was better, but I have since been suspicious of what others see and don't see when bragging so much about their pet clinician.
Over the years, I have heard of plenty of colt starting clinics with RH where people got run over and bucked off, mass mayhem in the arena happening.
If you think RH was who you want to follow, I understand then why you think bucking is part of what horses do and are fine with it.

[Wirt]

So your characterization of Ray Hunt is that he is an idiot. Hard to have a conversation with you after that. But I'm sure your the best.

[Bluey]

So your characterization of Ray Hunt is that he is an idiot. Hard to have a conversation with you after that. But I'm sure your the best.

You may say that, when it came to working with horses, he was one of the more "cowboy" and less "horseman" clinicians out there when he started and then learned "some" over the years.

Hard to have a conversation with someone that probably has only heard of RH.

[Wirt]

Well,Bluey I don't want to make this about RH. And you probably do a fine job starting colts. I'll ignore your last comment to me.

The premise of your argument is that letting a horse buck with the saddle teaches them to buck, and that they from then on want to buck in a pinch.
Your secondary argument is that turning them loose to do so is worse, and thirdly, the will only buck if you did something wrong in getting them ready to saddle. You believe this so strongly, that only an idiot would do any of these things., Which is a different argument all together.
You support your argument with anecdotal examples of horses that always bucked after being started and allowed to buck with the saddle.
However, can the success or validity of a system be judged solely on the frequency of failure? If that is the parameter of proof, then, if we were to use the life work of RH as empirical data, seeing as though there are probably thousands of horses involved in being saddled in this manner, what do you suppose the success rate is? How many of those horses became problem buckers, or even bucked another day in their life? We don't really know, but I would imagine that the success rate is pretty high.
Based on that, and my own observations and experiences, (I've lost count, a couple hundred started?) not to mention witnessing hundreds of others and their results, your argument is a pretty weak one to support, other than you have a personal distaste for it, and you don't like it. Which is fine, but hardly something to base a proclamation on. So it's just an opinion.
There are too many variables to really make any kind of scientific conclusion what is the best way. You can assume the ones that didn't buck, did not because of the prep work you did. But unless you do a test group, the same amount of horses with no saddle prep, with that all other variables the same, you cannot be entirely sure. Even months of fine training, can disintegrate with a change of rider, technique, ability, environment, on and on.
As to not doing things correctly,f there was a mistake involved, which mistake was it. Pretend that they were all on a lead and never turned loose, or they were all turned loose.
My overall point is that there is no authority in such a definitive statement such as, "If you do it properly, they don't buck"
With horses and training, there is hardly ever a never, and never an always.

[Bluey]

Well,Bluey I don't want to make this about RH. And you probably do a fine job starting colts. I'll ignore your last comment to me.

The premise of your argument is that letting a horse buck with the saddle teaches them to buck, and that they from then on want to buck in a pinch.
Your secondary argument is that turning them loose to do so is worse, and thirdly, the will only buck if you did something wrong in getting them ready to saddle. You believe this so strongly, that only an idiot would do any of these things., Which is a different argument all together.
You support your argument with anecdotal examples of horses that always bucked after being started and allowed to buck with the saddle.
However, can the success or validity of a system be judged solely on the frequency of failure? If that is the parameter of proof, then, if we were to use the life work of RH as empirical data, seeing as though there are probably thousands of horses involved in being saddled in this manner, what do you suppose the success rate is? How many of those horses became problem buckers, or even bucked another day in their life? We don't really know, but I would imagine that the success rate is pretty high.
Based on that, and my own observations and experiences, (I've lost count, a couple hundred started?) not to mention witnessing hundreds of others and their results, your argument is a pretty weak one to support, other than you have a personal distaste for it, and you don't like it. Which is fine, but hardly something to base a proclamation on. So it's just an opinion.
There are too many variables to really make any kind of scientific conclusion what is the best way. You can assume the ones that didn't buck, did not because of the prep work you did. But unless you do a test group, the same amount of horses with no saddle prep, with that all other variables the same, you cannot be entirely sure. Even months of fine training, can disintegrate with a change of rider, technique, ability, environment, on and on.
As to not doing things correctly,f there was a mistake involved, which mistake was it. Pretend that they were all on a lead and never turned loose, or they were all turned loose.
My overall point is that there is no authority in such a definitive statement such as, "If you do it properly, they don't buck"
With horses and training, there is hardly ever a never, and never an always.

I didn't say never.
I explained a roadmap to avoid that happening.
If you have started colts, you know that if you do your job right, they just won't be fireworks, because that is what you are doing, teaching, not looking to cause explosions.

I think that anyone wanting to start horses can learn from realizing that it is up to them to see that a horse doesn't has a chance or reason to buck when started, that's all.

[5]

I don't think the horse suffered any ill effects.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhTBL...zQlKxSJjJbn7xQ

Seems to be going well under saddle.

[Bluey]

I don't think the horse suffered any ill effects.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhTBL...zQlKxSJjJbn7xQ

Seems to be going well under saddle.

Yes, that is a very forward pony.

[Wirt]

I didn't say never.
I explained a roadmap to avoid that happening.
If you have started colts, you know that if you do your job right, they just won't be fireworks, because that is what you are doing, teaching, not looking to cause explosions.

I think that anyone wanting to start horses can learn from realizing that it is up to them to see that a horse doesn't has a chance or reason to buck when started, that's all.

I do not approach it thinking, whatever I do, I can't let him buck.
Here's a link to a bunch of colts getting used to saddles at once. I know you will think this is idiotic insanity. Oh no, what if they buck?! You have to be a hand to get this deal to work out.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=517620188324091

[Wirt]

I don't think the horse suffered any ill effects.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhTBL...zQlKxSJjJbn7xQ

Seems to be going well under saddle.

She could start bucking at any moment!!! LOL

[5]

If they posted the first youtube the day the horse was saddled the second youtube shows thirty days progress.
Shrieks or not they seem to be good young horsewomen.

[Bluey]

I do not approach it thinking, whatever I do, I can't let him buck.
Here's a link to a bunch of colts getting used to saddles at once. I know you will think this is idiotic insanity. Oh no, what if they buck?! You have to be a hand to get this deal to work out.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=517620188324091

Why do it the hard way, when it is so easy to just work one at the time and get them going and make good horses without all that showboating and taking the chances your horse get hurt or get in a wreck that then you have to back off to get him over it?

I have known too many horses started like that that have a bucking problem, that would not have if they had not been taught to buck and let practice it so well from the start.
Just ask any cowboy around.

While there are many, many ways you can start colts, KISS applies to that also.

My point, there are some easier, better, more sensible ways than others.

When I was being taught to start colts as a teenager and started many and later taught apprentices how to, we made it clear what we did and why.
If someone had been starting colts that bucked, that was unacceptable, it meant that one person was doing something wrong.

Teaching a horse how to respond to us first, then using that to have them accept a saddle without fireworks and for that keeping it under control, that was so basic I am surprised when some break that rule, as those girls did AND then wonder why the horse acted up.

You mention rank colts?
If that had truly been one, it would have gone thru that weak board fence whyle bucking blindly without a second thought.
Good that it was a fairly quiet, soft little mare and sensible enough to, even bucking violently, respect that flimsy fence.

Whatever anyone believes, I hope anyone reading this will at least stop and think before they do something if that really makes sense or how else they may do it.