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Reining Horse death caused by trainer

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  • #41
    Originally posted by rmh_rider View Post
    I tie with a long bungee, and it has a panic snap.
    Not to hijack but this is quite dangerous! If the horse pull back and the snap opens...watch out! It will spring back all over and could easily knock someone down!
    I've seen it happen, it resulted in a skull fracture and a commotion. j
    ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

    Originally posted by LauraKY
    I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
    HORSING mobile training app

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    • #42
      Originally posted by RubyTuesday View Post
      I have seen a well known hunter trainer truss a horse up tight to a bitting rig and turn it out with about nine ponies to beat the crap out of it.
      What on earth was that supposed to teach the poor thing?
      Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
      Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
      -Rudyard Kipling

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      • #43
        I once witnessed this practice in a PA barn. I was boarding there temporarily and got there one hot July day to find a yearling tied this way and down in the round pen, panting. The trainer walked by and said "good , maybe he will learn something this time "

        I ran in, untied the colt, untacked him, grabbed a hose to cool him off, and called a friend with a trailer to come get my horse and animal control to come get this guy. He lost his farm shortly there after when all his training clients pulled out once the story went public.

        The guy (easily twice my size) told me to leave the colt some because he was in training. I was already well on the crazy train by then and told him if he stepped foot in the round pen, I'd kill him.

        There are a lot of great trainers out there that do it right. These ridiculous shortcuts are not saved for western disciplines. I think we just see more men in those arenas and they tend to be a bit less patient and compassionate.
        Strong promoter of READING the entire post before responding.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
          OP correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think this is a tie-down accident.

          As I understand it, and I've seen it done by western people, the horse was tied from on side; a rein going from the bit and tied to either the horn or the girth ring, AND then left to its own the nose almost touching its side. They do one side for X minutes then the same amount of time tied to the other side.

          Cruel.
          What is the point of this?
          Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

          Originally posted by DottieHQ
          You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
            Not to hijack but this is quite dangerous! If the horse pull back and the snap opens...watch out! It will spring back all over and could easily knock someone down!
            I've seen it happen, it resulted in a skull fracture and a commotion. j
            That's extremely dangerous. I never, ever use bungee cross ties.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
              Not to hijack but this is quite dangerous! If the horse pull back and the snap opens...watch out! It will spring back all over and could easily knock someone down!
              I've seen it happen, it resulted in a skull fracture and a commotion. j
              I too have seen a serious injury result from a broken bungee...those things can really snap back when they break. That is one piece of equipment I would never use.
              America dialed 911. Donald Trump answered the phone.

              Stop pumping money into colleges and start getting ready to earn money in the projected tradesman shortage of 2024. Make Trades Great Again!

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              • #47
                Originally posted by FindersKeepers View Post
                I once witnessed this practice in a PA barn. I was boarding there temporarily and got there one hot July day to find a yearling tied this way and down in the round pen, panting. The trainer walked by and said "good , maybe he will learn something this time "

                I ran in, untied the colt, untacked him, grabbed a hose to cool him off, and called a friend with a trailer to come get my horse and animal control to come get this guy. He lost his farm shortly there after when all his training clients pulled out once the story went public.

                The guy (easily twice my size) told me to leave the colt some because he was in training. I was already well on the crazy train by then and told him if he stepped foot in the round pen, I'd kill him.

                There are a lot of great trainers out there that do it right. These ridiculous shortcuts are not saved for western disciplines. I think we just see more men in those arenas and they tend to be a bit less patient and compassionate.
                Good for you! Way to get 'em!
                America dialed 911. Donald Trump answered the phone.

                Stop pumping money into colleges and start getting ready to earn money in the projected tradesman shortage of 2024. Make Trades Great Again!

                Comment


                • #48
                  I once knew a well known horse trainer in the area that left his horses to stand for hours tied in side reins, clipped to a short chain in the stall. Then he would ride them in them, make them stand more before finally letting them out. It was disgusting. I hated going there, but I was jocking a pony for a lady that was at the same barn.. I found out she worshiped him, needless to say I didn't return. This practice is not limited to reiners, but stretches into almost every discipline.
                  www.thetexasequestrian.com

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Chachie View Post
                    It's surprising what you see when you do farm calls...
                    I've seen this "training" for suppleness and flexion in dressage barns, h/j barns, and WP barns as well as gaming barns. It's not just reiners.
                    It's asinine the mentality behind it, it really is. I mean, would you want your head tied to your side so you can become more flexible? It's just cruel.
                    Better results come from carrot stretches and manipulations...
                    So true. I wonder why these practices are still used? We don't become more flexible by standing in the same hyperextended position for hours, so why would they think a horse would? If this was a practice done only by old people, or back woods folk with no access to this century, TV or internet, I'd understand why they still do it, but for god-sakes, these people doing it aren't THAT stupid. Are they?

                    I wish I were a good writer...this is a subject that needs to be addressed for the horse world. From the stand point of physics, not training. C'mon Cothers, we have excellent writers on this forum....who's up for it?

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                    • #50
                      There are all kinds of tricks old time trainers knew and, more important, knew when to use and why, if they ever went there.

                      I think that some did find a very tough, rank thick horse they were starting did better if he fought himself trussed up this and that way, or thrown first and fought down until he submitted, that all I have heard.

                      The BIG difference, those were tales of extreme horses and training, everyone knew that is not how you go about normally, regular ways of training good enough for all without putting anyone, horse or handler, at risk.

                      Then some late come Johnnys decided that, if old timers did that and worked for them, that is a great way to handle horses, lets do that with EVERY horse we get our hands on.

                      Yes, not everyone that handles horses is the brightest lightbulb and so strange traditions started, like trussing horses up all kinds of strange ways and other such.

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                      • #51
                        Those hackney pictures made me so sick.....I really, really hate people.

                        And to the poster who said you saw a horse tied and left it there when you came back 2 hours later, why didn't you do or say something?

                        I had a boarder leave when I told her I wouldn't tie the horses head up in her stall - her WP trainer told her to do it (this is a 4H horse). I bought the horse and have her now - she is sadly one of the sorest horses I've ever had . She hurts all of the time, everywhere. She's retired at 11, and that's only because she wasn't for sale any earlier.

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                          There are all kinds of tricks old time trainers knew and, more important, knew when to use and why, if they ever went there.

                          I think that some did find a very tough, rank thick horse they were starting did better if he fought himself trussed up this and that way, or thrown first and fought down until he submitted, that all I have heard.

                          The BIG difference, those were tales of extreme horses and training, everyone knew that is not how you go about normally, regular ways of training good enough for all without putting anyone, horse or handler, at risk.

                          Then some late come Johnnys decided that, if old timers did that and worked for them, that is a great way to handle horses, lets do that with EVERY horse we get our hands on.

                          Yes, not everyone that handles horses is the brightest lightbulb and so strange traditions started, like trussing horses up all kinds of strange ways and other such.
                          ^^This. There are a LOT of funky, cool tricks that people see in movies or in videos that your average ammy owner should never be attempting with their horse. I'm talking things like laying down a horse during training (not Tommy Turvey trick stuff, but actual training technique). The trainers I've seen tying horses never leave them unattended. They do it when they have a horse that is very 'one-sided' and will not flex to that side and it is usually done as a last resort after other training techniques have been tried and teeth checked etc. Certainly not something that should be part of the regular training routine.

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by BarbaricYawp View Post
                            ^^This. There are a LOT of funky, cool tricks that people see in movies or in videos that your average ammy owner should never be attempting with their horse. I'm talking things like laying down a horse during training (not Tommy Turvey trick stuff, but actual training technique). The trainers I've seen tying horses never leave them unattended. They do it when they have a horse that is very 'one-sided' and will not flex to that side and it is usually done as a last resort after other training techniques have been tried and teeth checked etc. Certainly not something that should be part of the regular training routine.
                            Just one problem. It doesn't work. Sometimes the old ways aren't the best, no matter whose hands they are in. Sometimes it's a matter of "this is the way we've always done it" with no concept of what the original motivation was. Like the ham story. I'm sure you've all heard the ham story.

                            Originally posted by LookmaNohands View Post
                            Anatomy 101: when you fatigue a muscle it contracts!!!! Forcing the horse into a certain position in this way will cause the muscles to CONTRACT. It does not cause them to stretch because muscles can't stretch, the can only relax!!

                            This is abuse in my book!!

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by FLeventer View Post
                              Used to board at a barn where they tied the horse to the stall wall. Gave them a foot of chain from wall to halter. When I found out I was livid and promptly moved my horse. People are freaking nuts.
                              Wait, what? Just straight tied? What's wrong with tying up a horse in a stall?
                              Jigga:
                              Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by saultgirl View Post
                                Wait, what? Just straight tied? What's wrong with tying up a horse in a stall?
                                A tie stall isn't inherently abusive but a foot of chain allows for no neck movement and would be disastrous if the horse sat back and the chain didn't break.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                  Just one problem. It doesn't work. Sometimes the old ways aren't the best, no matter whose hands they are in. Sometimes it's a matter of "this is the way we've always done it" with no concept of what the original motivation was. Like the ham story. I'm sure you've all heard the ham story.
                                  Not familiar with the ham story, but am familiar with the banana story. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_the_mo...ver_take_place

                                  The ones I've seen tied are being worked on the extended side, not the flexed one, i.e. they are tying the horse to the 'good' side, not forcing the horse to bend towards the bad side. Kind of like stretching your hamstrings by touching your toes before you run. Perhaps this is different than what the OP is describing. Certainly the horses I've seen tied are not nose-to-saddle, they have room to flex and release. And they are supervised.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Niennor View Post
                                    What is the point of this?
                                    Breaking the horse.
                                    ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                                    Originally posted by LauraKY
                                    I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                                    HORSING mobile training app

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
                                      A tie stall isn't inherently abusive but a foot of chain allows for no neck movement and would be disastrous if the horse sat back and the chain didn't break.
                                      Actually a foot of chain, placed in a position where a horse can hold his head in a natural position, is less dangerous than 4 feet of chain or even rope. With a short tie, they can't sit back and get a foreleg over it, or put their nose to the ground and step over it/on it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
                                        A tie stall isn't inherently abusive but a foot of chain allows for no neck movement and would be disastrous if the horse sat back and the chain didn't break.
                                        How much rope do you want? As long as they are tied at a natural head position, they don't need much more than a foot.

                                        I actually find it more disastrous when a horse learns to sit back and break ties,
                                        so I don't mess around with twine and such.
                                        Jigga:
                                        Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Somewhere in my brain bank is a photo of Sharon Camarillo's horse with his head tied around to his tail, via the rein attached to his gag bit. his muzzle was about at the stirrup. She advocated this as a suppling tool pre riding, and I don't recall the specs verbatim of course, but it was something like 10 minutes per side.
                                          This was in an article in a magazine in the early 80s..it made an impression, obviously.

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