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Reining Horse death caused by trainer

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  • #21
    I have ridden with 2 reining trainers and have never seen a horse tied like this. I have seen them flex the horse from side to side on the ground but never tied. The only similar thing I have seen is tying the reins to the girth (or stirrups) like side reins, outside rein loose enough for the horse to use its head and neck (slight loop in the rein) and the inside rein with slight pressure to encourage the horse to bend inward and I was probably taught that 30 years ago.

    I hope you can at least ban him from your shows.
    www.michelesfindinghappiness.com

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    • #22
      Originally posted by cyriz's mom View Post
      I'm in North Texas...thousands of QHs in the area. About 10 years ago I was at a vet clinic and there was a young horse there (3 or 4) with a horrid neck deformity. Reining trainer had tied head to girth, then tied to wall and gone to lunch for an hour. Came back and horse had flipped, ruptured multiple tendons and muscles.

      Survival was unsure when I saw it, but it could not lift it's head/neck to parallel to the ground.

      Unfortunately, due to all the 2 and 3 y.o. futurities in the various western disciplines, we see lots of horses around here who were pushed too hard and are permanently lame and done by 4 or 5. And don't even get me started on the HYPP halter horses. ugh.
      Re the last paragraph - I saw and heard of a lot of overuse with young horses when I was boarding at a nearby reining barn for a while. A real shame.

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      • #23
        [QUOTE=MaybeMorgan;7183248]
        Originally posted by beowulf View Post
        i've known one trainer who had two horses had to be PTS after cross-tie incidents in which both horses cartwheeled over and had catastrophic injuries resulting. ....QUOTE]

        Which is why I have bailing twine loops on the cross ties.
        Bailing twine usually is the last thing to break FYI. More times than not it is the halter even if not break away or the snaps on the cross tie. Food for thought. Zip ties are a LOT more effective if you want something to break.
        I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Sannois View Post
          EXACTLY right! I quit a barn managers position after finding a young QH gelding tied up that way all alone in his stall with no one on the grounds.
          Insane! I would like to tie someone that way and see if they are not crippled after that ordeal.
          Wow! My father could totally write this exact same thing. He was facility manager, big hot shot trainer came in to teach everyone "how it's done" and ties the horse's face to the horn of the saddle, puts it in a stall and goes to lunch. Poor horse was drenched with sweat and ended up collapsing--so sad. Idiocy is what I call that. Those weren't the only heinous practices but my dad couldn't take it anymore and walked.
          I LOVE my Chickens!

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          • #25
            Used to board at a barn where they tied the horse to the stall wall. Gave them a foot of chain from wall to halter. When I found out I was livid and promptly moved my horse. People are freaking nuts.

            I've heard about tying the horse and leaving it. A reiner boarded at a barn that I worked at when I was 16 and this occoured once. I saw the horse in the stall and untied him when I got back to do afternoon chores. It was 35degrees out horse was put away soaking wet and was shaking when I entered the stall. I untied him and untacked him and threw a cooler on him. When the owner came back I was yelled at to the point of tears. It just blew my mind.

            If this is the "quick" way then I will take the long way any day.
            I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.

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            • #26
              Wow, was surprised to see Patrice Hohl's name associated. I was at Morrisville the same time she was, and she was one of the well-respected riders in the program.
              <3 Vinnie <3
              1992-2010
              Jackie's Punt ("Bailey") My Finger Lakes Finest Thoroughbred

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              • #27
                Originally posted by beowulf View Post
                i've known one trainer who had two horses had to be PTS after cross-tie incidents in which both horses cartwheeled over and had catastrophic injuries resulting. is she abusive and should her training license be revoked? no.

                horses when tied can and will panic, regardless of the handler. my point is in a lot of reining cultures, a tie-down is the norm for training. certainly not ALL reining trainers endorse or use this aide, but it is still very common and prevalent and, to be fair, i am not surprised to hear of resulting deaths.

                tragic and unavoidable yes, but the point is this isn't the only trainer in reining who believes in such training methods.
                SO this trainer you speak of was so stupid after she watched one of her horses freak and flip in the cross ties, she didn't know how to avoid it the 2nd time? I have nothing supportive to say about a trainer with that little common sense.

                I watched an accident happen to someone else's horse in cross ties when I was a kid - it had a pretty serious and everlasting impact on me. I won't EVER cross tie a horse without thorough, thorough training, and breakaway snaps. I'm not even a trainer.

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                • #28
                  Ahh this is so sad to read.

                  Idiot man with a huge ego. So sad SOMEBODY paid this guy $$ to train their horse. All for the life of the horse.

                  I never cross tie. Never. I tie with a long bungee, and it has a panic snap.

                  Poor horse having to die at this idiots hand.

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                  • #29
                    despite the blatantly derogatory, assuming tone of your post hundredacres, i will humor you with a reply:

                    these were two very different horses, months apart, with baling twine on one end and the safety mechanism on the other, lol. they were client horses that were very well behaved and had no history of issues on the crossties. this happened to a BNT in NE that winters in NC that many people on this forum love and respect. my point is that bad things can and do happen to the best and worst of people, and some horses will, when tied, panic and seriously hurt themselves, despite the best training or lack thereof.

                    i always find it surprising how far people will nitpick and pierce apart general, universal statements. i'll be sure to let the trainer at hand know you called her stupid for her freak accidents!

                    on the topic, isn't tying to the side/horn/saddle something some hunters do as well? i misinterpreted the OP's post, i thought she was referring to tie-downs.
                    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by beowulf View Post
                      on the topic, isn't tying to the side/horn/saddle something some hunters do as well? i misinterpreted the OP's post, i thought she was referring to tie-downs.
                      I've never heard of a hunter trainer tying a horse up like that (asymmetrically) and leaving it alone in a stall... Side reins are generally used in motion (lunging, riding), and are generally pretty evenly tensioned between the two sides.

                      But I'm sure some idiot out there has done it, so I won't say it *never* has happened.

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                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        All this happened after the last show of the season.

                        So - final update via the owner herself and the vet who euthed the horse. Her neck wasn't broken, she fractured her skull, massive brain damage (they tried beating the horse to make her get up). Don't know who called the vet, but he got there before the owner did.

                        It was Patrice who had tied the horse's head down this time. She then went in the house & left it there. Neither she or Mark were supposed to be doing anything with the horse at all; owner was 1 1/2 hours away at the time. This was a finished reiner she'd just bought & paid 25k for.

                        Ranch/horse owner had already given them their 30 day notice to vacate before this happened; they were living on the property & it's required by state law that they have that 30 days.

                        A lot of their clients had actually left them before the last show, which explained why they weren't blocking so much of the pathway from gate to entry booth as usual.

                        They moved a lot of stuff that day, the rest yesterday.

                        We won't be seeing them at any more of our shows. We won't miss them.
                        suze
                        http://www.cafepress.com/horses_by_hawk

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                          After looking thru his web site, it seems strange that he could be abusing horses with all those people around all day long at the main barn and at shows.

                          Will be interesting to know what all is going on there.
                          So you've never heard of a BNT with abusive ways who have clients lines up with fistfuls or money and pathological ability to look the other way as long as their horses are winning? Ever heard the name David Boggs?

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by suze View Post
                            All this happened after the last show of the season.

                            So - final update via the owner herself and the vet who euthed the horse. Her neck wasn't broken, she fractured her skull, massive brain damage (they tried beating the horse to make her get up). Don't know who called the vet, but he got there before the owner did.

                            It was Patrice who had tied the horse's head down this time. She then went in the house & left it there. Neither she or Mark were supposed to be doing anything with the horse at all; owner was 1 1/2 hours away at the time. This was a finished reiner she'd just bought & paid 25k for.

                            Ranch/horse owner had already given them their 30 day notice to vacate before this happened; they were living on the property & it's required by state law that they have that 30 days.

                            A lot of their clients had actually left them before the last show, which explained why they weren't blocking so much of the pathway from gate to entry booth as usual.

                            They moved a lot of stuff that day, the rest yesterday.

                            We won't be seeing them at any more of our shows. We won't miss them.
                            that is just horrible..
                            AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by beowulf View Post
                              on the topic, isn't tying to the side/horn/saddle something some hunters do as well? i misinterpreted the OP's post, i thought she was referring to tie-downs.
                              I've never heard of that but it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by paw View Post
                                I've never heard of a hunter trainer tying a horse up like that (asymmetrically) and leaving it alone in a stall... Side reins are generally used in motion (lunging, riding), and are generally pretty evenly tensioned between the two sides.

                                But I'm sure some idiot out there has done it, so I won't say it *never* has happened.
                                I have seen a well known hunter trainer truss a horse up tight to a bitting rig and turn it out with about nine ponies to beat the crap out of it. Glad I "cold called" at that barn to see what really goes on so I did not send my horse there for training.
                                America dialed 911. Donald Trump answered the phone.

                                Stop pumping money into colleges and start getting ready to earn money in the projected tradesman shortage of 2024. Make Trades Great Again!

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                                • #36
                                  [QUOTE=FLeventer;7184246]
                                  Originally posted by MaybeMorgan View Post

                                  Bailing twine usually is the last thing to break FYI. More times than not it is the halter even if not break away or the snaps on the cross tie. Food for thought. Zip ties are a LOT more effective if you want something to break.
                                  FYI, maybe you have a different kind of baling twine, because the kind I use breaks pretty easily.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    We have three western trainers at my barn; 2 western pleasure and 1 reiner. They all tie horses' heads around as a matter or regular training for certain horses, and also leave the horses tied for long periods of time in their stalls. It's just how they do.
                                    It's very old-school, as is their horse care. They don't believe in letting horses drink until they are cooled out, and they usually cool out by tying the horses in their stalls. I have tried to engage in conversation about this. They think I'm an idiot.
                                    As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      It's surprising what you see when you do farm calls...
                                      I've seen this "training" for suppleness and flexion in dressage barns, h/j barns, and WP barns as well as gaming barns. It's not just reiners.
                                      It's asinine the mentality behind it, it really is. I mean, would you want your head tied to your side so you can become more flexible? It's just cruel.
                                      Better results come from carrot stretches and manipulations...

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I'm so thoroughly disgusted I don't even know what to say. How can anyone treat an animal with such disregard and cruelty? It breaks my heart to no end.
                                        "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

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                                        • #40
                                          I don't understand the 'tying the head around' thing at all.
                                          I know someone that does it and made it very clear that that person was not to ride my horse. (and I ride h/j and so does the person tying the horse around)
                                          I was just at a barn the other day and saw a horse with it's head literally tied to it's tail (not REALLY bent but still, it was tied to it's tail) for at least 2 hours (it was there when I got there and still there when I left so who knows how long it was actually tied like that for)
                                          I also always think of this when I read/see/hear about tying a horse for hours
                                          http://www.horsecare.org.za/hackney-...ection-n-cape/

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