ClipClopNYC '14 is officially on hold

[Alagirl]

They're appeasers. They keep feeding the alligator hoping it eats them last.

Or they are picking the morsels for the beast, blowing smoke up everybody else's skirt, hoping we won't see the curtain...

[Lynnwood]

So Gentle Giants has the NYC carriage horse which was shipped off to New Holland when he needed $600 surgery. He was purchased for $360, had the surgery, and is now sound and being used for trail rides. Gentle Giants rescue has him. so someone needs to adopt him and give him a good home.

He's Marcello, Hoof #3287.

So much for "retiring" carriage horses. His next stop was a canadian slaughter plant.

Would be relative if it was coupled with fact that Marcello/Manhattan went from a NYC owner straight to New Holland but that didn't happen. Yet again why are the carriage horse owners in NYC being held responsible for what a 3rd party does ?

Are you required to provide a paper trail when you sell your horse and irrefutable proof that the purchaser will never sell or dispose of said animal?

[Alagirl]

Soooooooo . . . the obvious thing would be for Ms. Flynn and her fellow teamsters to call up the New York Times and ask if anyone would like to do a major FEATURE ARTICLE that would expose for all time the realities of the carriage business and the absurdities pitched by the anti's. Papers looooove controversy--it's what keeps readers' eyes in front of the ads. Get your day in the limelight and correct the record! Most of the "constituents" are reasonable people who are intelligent and well-educated. Show the situation for the money-motivated mess it really is, and a lot of the Earnestly-Concerned will shrug off the next PETA broadsheet. Fight fire with fire!

It was one of the first things, gosh, has this been going on this long already, two years ago, Eva asking us to write letters to the editors.
Naturally non made it into print, not to mention what was written to back the carriages was edited into oblivion.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=315127
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=315998

[Paragon]

So Gentle Giants has the NYC carriage horse which was shipped off to New Holland when he needed $600 surgery. He was purchased for $360, had the surgery, and is now sound and being used for trail rides. Gentle Giants rescue has him. so someone needs to adopt him and give him a good home.

He's Marcello, Hoof #3287.

So much for "retiring" carriage horses. His next stop was a canadian slaughter plant.

Would be relative if it was coupled with fact that Marcello/Manhattan went from a NYC owner straight to New Holland but that didn't happen. Yet again why are the carriage horse owners in NYC being held responsible for what a 3rd party does ?

Are you required to provide a paper trail when you sell your horse and irrefutable proof that the purchaser will never sell or dispose of said animal?

You're being played, cloudy. It simply didn't happen the way they say it did. On the surface, their stuff looks slick, but it's supposed to. Horse X pulled a carriage and eventually ended up at a low-end auction. Whether or not the horse was actually in danger of anything isn't the story here; we all know that horses go through auction all the time. But the way our minds automatically make the leap that Horse X must have been sent to auction by his carriage driver/owner is what matters to them. You're supposed to make the leap. Most people do.

It's not usually how it happens.

[lolalola]

Why doesn't Forel post here directly instead of working through other posters? What is she afraid of? Cloudy, as an attorney do you approve of censorship? Ask your friend Liz why deletes any comments on her site that try to correct her misinformation and then bans the poster? This thread might be going off the boards, but we're all allowed to voice our opinion.

[Paragon]

I've been Googling every permutation and combination I can think of, but I can't find a single website on the internet that contains any reference to an ex-carriage horse named Marcello, or even a horse named Marcello as affiliated with Gentle Giants. I'm interested to know the source of the claims that cloudy issued, so that people can take appropriate action to counter them.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide a link!

[Amwrider]

I am on my phone and can't figure out how to copy links, but if you google "gentle giants horse rescue Manhattan" you should find the information. he currently goes by the name Manhattan

[Amwrider]

through that Google search you will also find an article written by Forel where she even states that Marcelo was last seen working 3 or 4 months prior to going through the auction so this tends to support the fact that he was given to a third party before turning up at the sale.

[Paragon]

I did find that, Amwrider, but I didn't find any reference to who he used to be or how much he sold for. I also couldn't find information about his hoof number, or any reference to him being up for adoption. Even Gentle Giants' website doesn't have him listed. Curious about the sources on that information.

Thank you for helping!

[lolalola]

Here's a quote from Lizzie herself:
http://www.youtube.com/user/spiritofspotty
"It is always a problem when people use horses to make money. They cannot help themselves, exploiting the horse to work harder, longer, when they are not supposed to. They cut back on good quality food, farrier and dental care because they want more money in their pocket."

Yes, she's referring to carriage horses here, but she uses the term "always a problem." Cloudy, ask her how she feels about foxhunting, racing, eventing, endurance and some of the other disciplines on this board. RARAs believe making money off any animal is "exploitation." So if you're a professional horseman or woman, you're the enemy, plain and simple.

[Alagirl]

I've been Googling every permutation and combination I can think of, but I can't find a single website on the internet that contains any reference to an ex-carriage horse named Marcello, or even a horse named Marcello as affiliated with Gentle Giants. I'm interested to know the source of the claims that cloudy issued, so that people can take appropriate action to counter them.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide a link!

http://banhdc.org/ch-news-20090511EF.shtml
Not Marcello...

one more about the 'engraved' number...
http://journals.worldnomads.com/harr...ailing-in-a-sh

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animal...#comment-29942
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=304674
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=315680

[Paragon]

http://banhdc.org/ch-news-20090511EF.shtml
Not Marcello...

one more about the 'engraved' number...
http://journals.worldnomads.com/harr...ailing-in-a-sh

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animal...#comment-29942
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=304674
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=315680

Since you posted this in reply to my inquiries... I apologize if I'm being dim, but I'm not seeing anything in any of these links that details the Marcello situation, by name, containing the information that cloudy has posted. Am I just overlooking it?

[Alagirl]

Since you posted this in reply to my inquiries... I apologize if I'm being dim, but I'm not seeing anything in any of these links that details the Marcello situation, by name, containing the information that cloudy has posted. Am I just overlooking it?

the top one was another 'rescue'

the others...
well, I do apologize...I mucked my favorites out and found a few gems on the way. Interesting reading. With a box of wine on a rainy day.

Sorry.

[LauraKY]

The quote is used anytime one group attacks another and no one stands up.
The quotation stems from Niemöller's lectures during the early postwar period. Different versions of the quotation exist. These can be attributed to the fact that Niemöller spoke extemporaneously and in a number of settings. It has many versions.

Yes it does, and was in reference to Nazi occupied territories. Again, highly inappropriate to equate banning carriage horses or even the attempted confiscation of carriage horses to the Holocaust.

[danceronice]

Yes it does, and was in reference to Nazi occupied territories. Again, highly inappropriate to equate banning carriage horses or even the attempted confiscation of carriage horses to the Holocaust.

It's more relevant when the pro-carriage uses it than when animals (personal property) are used as analogous to slaves and Holocaust victims. The causality chain works a lot better referring to government restriction on free trade and private property than people comparing something you can buy and sell to a human being.

[Bluey]

Yes it does, and was in reference to Nazi occupied territories. Again, highly inappropriate to equate banning carriage horses or even the attempted confiscation of carriage horses to the Holocaust.

Not really, it has become a figure of speech, meaning if we don't stand together, together we fall.

Very appropriate to the fight we are all in against animal rights extremists, attacking any and all we do, this here one more little battle to them, good to sharpen their claws to fight some more for their cause, that is to eventually eliminate ALL animal uses.

[Lady Eboshi]

Since you posted this in reply to my inquiries... I apologize if I'm being dim, but I'm not seeing anything in any of these links that details the Marcello situation, by name, containing the information that cloudy has posted. Am I just overlooking it?

Y'know, this is something that as any kind of entity ONLY exists on the Internet, among the idle minds with underemployed keyboards who seek out made-up or out-of-context Mostly Nothing so they can kick up a Drama and pearl-clutch. All this does is elevate miniscule pixel-sized lunatics into the Big Thing they'd like to be; all for their personal gratification.

Try to put the operator of a legitimate business, the existence of which is centuries deep, OUT of business and it's going to be LAWSUIT CITY. For the simple reason there is no basis to deny these people's ability to make a lawful living. By the same token, there is ZERO basis to attach (seize) their lawful property, the horses, for a non-existent, undocumented, groundless "humane" problem that any possible expert who could be called to the witness stand, such as veterinarians, horse breeders, horse dealers, grooms etc. can prove satisfactorily does not exist.

This is nothing but "static," unless YOU keep giving it life by kicking up the crap into a dust cloud over and OVER again in the name of "ZOMG, they're coming for us" BS. Bottom line is this: If reasonable people (not lunatic radicals) don't see much of a problem, no one's going to take a case they can't win. KEEP YOUR STANDARDS OF CARE AND USE HIGH and there will be no target in sight.

Stop doing these RARAS' publicity work for them just because you love drama.

[michaleenflynn]

Before the mod shuts down the thread as BarnRules has requested, I want to say just a couple of things, and then go back and move through the thread to answer actual questions.

The most important thing I want to say (again) is thank you to all of our supporters. COTH members are part of the backbone of our push-back efforts; more than a few traveled thousands of miles on their own dime to come and meet us and learn about us, and every single one who has became a firm supporter and friend. There are COTH members I met on this forum who have become daily workers on our issue, not to mention personal friends. Then there are the others who I have not had the pleasure to meet yet, but who are always present on these threads with positive and honest input, pledging their continued support. All of these folks mean more to us, and to me personally, than I can really say, so I will just say thank you.

As for the mishegoss in previous posts on this thread and on every other carriage or NYC thread, spearheaded by mostly the same group over and over, well - I won't be participating anymore. I got some very good counsel from some very good friends, and have realized the error of my ways Henceforth, I will not allow myself to be manipulated into the yawping vortex of negative and disingenuous dialogue, which holds for me only frustration and an enormous time-suck that I cannot afford. JFTR, I continue to hold that true substantive support and hewing to principle cannot be eroded by peripheral incidentals like personality and style, especially when the person whose personality and style (me) being used in this manner by these people as a qualifier for their support, has been maligned, ill-used, and had all types of accusations and nastiness hurled in their direction out of the gate on each thread, and is only responding within the parameters of normal human reactions - at least they are normal for NYC Because this is the ONLY time - when I am defending myself, or outraged at untrue aspersions cast in my direction - that I EVER answer anyone in that tone or manner or what have you. I invite anyone to find a single instance where I have EVER been nasty to a COTH member without pointed provocation.

IOW, I won't be baited, ever again, and your support is your own business, based on whatever metrics you care to use.

I will continue to answer any and all polite, serious inquiries put to me about my beloved business, with pleasure. Any that do not fit that description will be ignored.

Thanx for reading

[Alagirl]

Y'know, this is something that as any kind of entity ONLY exists on the Internet, among the idle minds with underemployed keyboards who seek out made-up or out-of-context Mostly Nothing so they can kick up a Drama and pearl-clutch. All this does is elevate miniscule pixel-sized lunatics into the Big Thing they'd like to be; all for their personal gratification.

Try to put the operator of a legitimate business, the existence of which is centuries deep, OUT of business and it's going to be LAWSUIT CITY. For the simple reason there is no basis to deny these people's ability to make a lawful living. By the same token, there is ZERO basis to attach (seize) their lawful property, the horses, for a non-existent, undocumented, groundless "humane" problem that any possible expert who could be called to the witness stand, such as veterinarians, horse breeders, horse dealers, grooms etc. can prove satisfactorily does not exist.

This is nothing but "static," unless YOU keep giving it life by kicking up the crap into a dust cloud over and OVER again in the name of "ZOMG, they're coming for us" BS. Bottom line is this: If reasonable people (not lunatic radicals) don't see much of a problem, no one's going to take a case they can't win. KEEP YOUR STANDARDS OF CARE AND USE HIGH and there will be no target in sight.

Stop doing these RARAS' publicity work for them just because you love drama.

what on earth are you talking about?

[michaleenflynn]

Soooooooo . . . the obvious thing would be for Ms. Flynn and her fellow teamsters to call up the New York Times and ask if anyone would like to do a major FEATURE ARTICLE that would expose for all time the realities of the carriage business and the absurdities pitched by the anti's. Papers looooove controversy--it's what keeps readers' eyes in front of the ads. Get your day in the limelight and correct the record! Most of the "constituents" are reasonable people who are intelligent and well-educated. Show the situation for the money-motivated mess it really is, and a lot of the Earnestly-Concerned will shrug off the next PETA broadsheet. Fight fire with fire!

Thank you, Lady Eboshi.

I worked with Emily Hager, a top reporter for the NY Times for 8 months, ostensibly on an article that would be a bottom-up exposé , blowing the lid once and for all off the whole RARA/Nislick/Forel scam being perpetrated on both the carriage industry and the public at large.

The morning the article came out (she said it was against ethical concerns to let me see the final product before it was printed), we all woke up late, and I did not have time to turn on the computer before I rushed out the door to drive my daughter to school.

After dropping her off, I stopped at the first gas station and ran inside to buy the paper.

Minutes later, I stood next to the gas pump, crumpled NYT in hand, wailing, screaming, shouting, and crying into the phone, with Emily on the other end.

The article was on the FRONT PAGE, and it was a travesty. NOT an exposé on our enemies as promised, but rather the headline, accompanying photo, and entire text was skewed in the direction of "is this the end of the carriage industry"?

(Emily had used little to NONE of the mountain of evidence I gave her; the only new information she turned up was that the ASPCA had given NYCLASS $450,000 for their campaign against us rather than the $250,000 we knew about.)

Emily was obviously prepared for what she knew was coming from me - she was sheepish and apologetic and very quiet. Her proffered reason for the amazing turn of the article? "I got a new editor 3/4 of the way through, and this is the way he wanted to go." Yes, you guessed it - the new editor had personal anti-carriage sentiments.

Eight months of my life I emailed, PMed, and spoke on the phone with this reporter almost daily; my industry believed me when I told them something great was coming out of all of this, because I believed Emily. In the end it was just about a big, fat zero. Maybe Emily Hager has Google Alerts for her own name, and will turn up here to confirm my story.