• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Saddlebred peeps... long lining question!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Saddlebred peeps... long lining question!

    Perhaps this is silly to ask, but!

    I'm currently helping a friend out with her 4 y/o Saddlebred gelding. Her eventual hope for him is to be a 5 gaited super star. She also wants to drive him. She's had him since April or May, and plucked him out of the field with 0 handling. She's had a little bit of help from her trainer, but can't really afford full time training. He goes around somewhat pleasantly under saddle but needs a TON of work. This is his owner's first greenie, though she's been riding for a while its always been on made horses.

    Her trainer suggested that she start long lining him because he has some respect issues, and needs ground work boot camp, which is where I came in. I'm really confident in my long lining skills when it comes to using them to develop a baby. I can't ride at the moment and had been long lining my mare quite a bit before she hurt herself.

    Right now we are just working on getting him used to the lines, steering, gas, breaks, and basic baby listening stuff. His owner has also never long lined before, so she takes him for a spin at the end of each session. The focus in on him, at the moment though.

    My question is once we get the basics down, what's next, from a Saddlebred perspective? With my mare I was working on forward and getting her to relax into the contact. I was looking for her to drop her head, lift her back, and really use her hind end at all three gaits. I'm more than happy to pass him on to somebody else if I don't fully understand what's going on, but I wanted to give it a shot since she really can't afford pro training and I think that it will be REALLY beneficial for him. I've noticed a big, positive, change in his behavior since we got going with it.

    So, educate me! I've been piddling around on YouTube, but wanted to tap into the COTH resources as well.

  • #2
    Dropping his head at this point is not a good idea - you want him comfortable moving with his head UP. Bringing their head up after they've been started with it down can be a bear.

    I haven't read it yet, but Smith Lilly has a book out about starting/training ASBs. The tried and true Saddleseat Equitation is probably a good read for you too.
    Visit my Spoonflower shop

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by red mares View Post
      Dropping his head at this point is not a good idea - you want him comfortable moving with his head UP. Bringing their head up after they've been started with it down can be a bear.

      I haven't read it yet, but Smith Lilly has a book out about starting/training ASBs. The tried and true Saddleseat Equitation is probably a good read for you too.
      That's my biggest concern. I have no real idea how to get him to lift his head/neck/shoulders and I don't want to make his job harder. I have no experience in the world of Saddlebreds, but basic listening skills are pretty universal at this point. Manners are still manners.

      I'll check out both those reads! Thank you!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Never punish/shut down a Saddlebred show horse for going forwards. We want them to be forward!

        Long line in a large circle, don't be trying to run behind at the trot.

        You want to look for the horse to sit in back and lighten/raise up in front.

        Straightness is important, the horse should be going around in a correct bend with the circle, not with it's head pulled to the outside (the most common fault people make when long lining in a circle).

        The horse should never be worked in an over check or side check before it knows to give to the bridle. Some trainers almost never check a horse when long lining.

        Some Saddlebred trainers long line exclusively in a straight rein. More commonly people switch to using a draw rein when long lining once a young horse understands the basics. There is a closed draw or an open draw. In a closed draw you run the reins through the back pad before they come to your hand. In an open draw you do not. Usually when you use a draw rein you start with the snap end of the rein snapped on a lower side ring and as the horse understands to give to the bridle while moving forward you move the snap up higher along the back pad until you have it snapped to the center top ring.

        You might consider taking a long lining lesson or two from a Saddlebred (or Morgan or Hackney) trainer.

        Comment


        • #5
          Also important when you start asking a horse to raise up keep an eye on the hind end. Don't let the horse get "split in two" (front and hind timing don't match) or let it travel with trailing hocks, both are undesirable. Keep the horse moving forward from behind.

          Comment


          • #6
            The starting is so important especially if she has dreams of high level competition.I sincerely suggest she "not monkey with him" and have him started by a pro. There are quite a few trainers who would be excellent and I am sure Renae would know who to recomment in your area



            Her eventual hope for him is to be a 5 gaited super star. She also wants to drive him

            I do not start any of my own because I am not well versed even after ten years..to do so IF the colt/filly is showing show ring potential.

            If it is basically going to be a wonderful trail buddy..then by all means..learn with the horse..
            The Elephant in the room

            Comment


            • #7
              To reiterate what Renae said, do not punish him for going forward. That means if he breaks from a trot into a canter, let him go round a few times at the canter until he naturally falls back into a trot, or use the words "whup trot!" to get him to break stride to a trot. As he gets stronger and learns the difference in his gaits, then you can work on keeping him in one gait or another. But at the early stages, gait doesn't matter as long as it's forward.

              And forward means FORWARD. Not racing around crazy fast, but not just jogging around in a circle, either. The horse should be working and learning to drive into the bridle. Use a smooth snaffle or some other gentle bit and teach the horse to go forward into the contact, not lag behind it. You don't want a droopy rein or overly "light" hand. On the other hand, you don't want to lock into his mouth, either. Make sure you keep the bit active and don't let the horse hang on it. If he hangs, give it a quick jiggle or bump while asking him to go forward. This will usually cause the horse to release the bridle and raise his head up. Eventually you will get him to stay released and light in the bridle while driving into it with his head in a somewhat "up" position.

              ASBs should march around chest first. That is what I try to keep in mind when working them. Obviously it's impossible to actually do, but if you aim for it, you'll get closer to the ASB ideal than if you're thinking "round" or "slow."

              Have fun!

              Comment


              • #8
                On the head position thing, it seems to me that for this horse and newbie 'Liner' it would be best to just not worry about where the head is for the moment. I agree with the establishing and rewarding a good forward attitude. IMO it is actually easier to get a horse to 'raise up' under saddle, but in order to do it and in order to do 5 gaits well, the horse must have a strong haunch. The horse develops a strong topline and haunch by not having its head cranked up in the early stages of its training.
                Jeanie
                RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here is a good long lining pic that represents what I was talking about. This mare is not wearing any kind of check. She is being driven forward into the bridle. The lines are not droopy. There is play in them and if she got too heavy, a little jiggle would get her to back off the bridle and go "chest first."

                  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                  The lines are set low on the harness and she is still raised up because of the interplay between how she's being asked to go forward and what I'm doing with the bit.

                  But it's not something a horse who is first learning to long line should be expected to do right away. Get him going forward into the bit first, then work on teaching him to work chest first. It will help with the under saddle work, too.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Smith Lily book is pretty good, but a great one for learning the ropes is this one

                    http://www.amazon.com/Training-Your-.../dp/0943955831

                    I think I need to buy it, someone borrowed my copy about 17 or 18 years ago and I never got it back.

                    So far, great advice here.
                    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                    Bernard M. Baruch

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Your friend would probably do well to save some money and find a trainer for 30 or 60 days. Like Fairfax said, if she wants it to be a "super star" the horse should have good start. Most saddle horse trainers don't do the 1 or 2 ride a week thing that happens in h/j/d land.

                      On the plus side, you're in KY which is ground zero for ASBs and there are likely some hungry trainers out there. I think there are also some capable Amish trainers in that area who do a lot of the heavy lifting of starting horses for many pros. I think Shakytails has one she likes. That might be an economical route your friend could check out, especially if she'd like to get the horse jogging.
                      Visit my Spoonflower shop

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by red mares View Post
                        Your friend would probably do well to save some money and find a trainer for 30 or 60 days. Like Fairfax said, if she wants it to be a "super star" the horse should have good start. Most saddle horse trainers don't do the 1 or 2 ride a week thing that happens in h/j/d land.

                        On the plus side, you're in KY which is ground zero for ASBs and there are likely some hungry trainers out there. I think there are also some capable Amish trainers in that area who do a lot of the heavy lifting of starting horses for many pros. I think Shakytails has one she likes. That might be an economical route your friend could check out, especially if she'd like to get the horse jogging.
                        I do have an Amish guy I like, in Breck County. He does a great job of getting them broke, to ride, drive or both, without taking the fire out of them. But, you've got to know what to do with 'em when you bring 'em home, because if it's a good one, it certainly won't be "kid broke" in a month or two.

                        My game plan for my horses consists of me starting them in lines- getting them used to tack, installing steering and brakes (forward is generally not a problem!), then sending them to the Amish to start, and then to a regular trainer if good enough.

                        Lots of good info in previous posts. One thing I also like to do is reward the horse when he's trotting like he's headed for green shavings and all proud of himself. Saddlebreds are show-offs, and an enthusiastic "yeah boy" is definitely music to his ears!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Start him like any other horse. Is it really respect issues or exuberance? Or both? Ground work is ground work. Does he longe? Once he knows voice commands and can work decently on the longe and with in hand work then going to long lines shouldn't that much of a big thing.
                          Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            My goodness! Thank you all so much. All the information is wonderful! I'm printing this thread to have it on hand.

                            Once I get him through the first little bit, I'm going to recommend that she send him to her ASB trainer, as I'm for sure in over my head. I'm not going to risk screwing up a horse that isn't mine. I have no idea if he is 'green shavings' quality or not (I think he'd make a lovely dressage horse, honestly) but I'm not going to attempt to screw around with it either way. I really wanted to help her and I can with his manners, but once he is reasonable, off he goes.

                            He is her baby, and there is a bit of Black Stallion Syndrome going on. I also think that she's rushed him a bit. Luckily she's open to help, but he has some really bad habits that need fixing (i.e... he rips his feet out of your hand when you try to pick his feet. Will try to run you over in his stall. Won't stand quietly. Does the fly spray dance. Rubs. Nips. Rears on the x-ties. I could go on, but it's pretty typical baby horse respect stuff). She is making GREAT headway with him though, with some help.

                            He does lunge, but voice commands aren't there. He forgets that he has a human attached to him, and tends to blow through you and spin about like a top. I have been very aware that they want to keep the forward thinking bit, and lots and lots of praise when he does march forward like a gentleman. We work on transitions and not dragging his handler all over the ring.

                            Right now with the long lines, we are just getting him used to the surcingle, crupper, and lines. No check, straight rein, in a half cheek snaffle (her trainer advised that she use this type, I'm not sure if I agree or not, but he goes reasonably in it. I won't use anything stronger.) She attempted to start him herself, but he got into the habit of hitting a corner or asking for a whoa and then spinning around to face you. Since she'd never long lined anything before, you can imagine the mess. He also is a fan of mini-rears when he gets frustrated, and it scared her, so he uses that to his advantage as well. I'm more than capable of sorting that out. She'll probably only have enough for 30-60 days at the trainers, so I'd love if she can get the most out of her time there, instead of them having to fill bad manner holes the whole time.

                            Thank you all, again so much for the information and I am going to take a few long lining lessons with her ASB trainer (and riding when I have this baby... that'll be a whole new "what should I expect" thread) in the near future. His name is Chris Reiser and he sounds wonderful! Even though I'll be passing this guy on once I install some manners, y'all have me beyond intrigued and I am always up for a cross training experience.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Nice barn. Glad I'm not getting that bill.

                              You could probably just go hang out on weekends once their show season is over. Every barn I've ever been at ends up with a bunch of owners/riders at the barn on Saturdays, and they all watch each other's horses work.
                              Visit my Spoonflower shop

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by red mares View Post
                                Nice barn. Glad I'm not getting that bill.

                                You could probably just go hang out on weekends once their show season is over. Every barn I've ever been at ends up with a bunch of owners/riders at the barn on Saturdays, and they all watch each other's horses work.
                                We went and visited a few weekends ago and I was impressed! Everything was neat and clean and I LOVED seeing all the fire extinguishers in easy reach. Usually you only see one or two... They had at least a dozen!

                                I didn't know if it would be taboo to just go watch, since I'm not an owner. I know some people get weird about stuff like that, even if that person is a poor newbie like me who poses no compitition.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The Reisers are great and really, not that expensive. A H/J barn near me is over $2800/month for full service board and training 5x a week with 1 lesson. No ASB barn in the entire country is that expensive LOL!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Did I read a dozen fire extinguishers? Is anyone going to tell her what they are used for?

                                    I know, I know Debbie Downer here. No need to flame me because I really won't care anyway.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      LOL, some folks like to use the 'whoosh' of a fire extinquisher as a way to 'ear up' or animate a horse. Personally, I think it is a waste of a useful substance, better kept for extinguishing fires.
                                      Jeanie
                                      RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                                        Did I read a dozen fire extinguishers? Is anyone going to tell her what they are used for?

                                        I know, I know Debbie Downer here. No need to flame me because I really won't care anyway.
                                        Eh, while I've heard of people using them to ear up a horse, I've never actually seen it. They're kinda expensive for that. A poof of baby powder, bag whips, and other assorted noise makers work well and are dirt cheap.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X