So here's what happens when you try to cheat.....

[Hokie Rider Alum]

I was in the stabling across from where this happened, and it definitely did happen violently. I have no idea who the trainer was either, I had not seen him before, but if you find out, please PT me.

[slave4tucker]

I got there right after the horse had the seizure. The whole show ground was talking about it.Just a terrible thing to happen when it didn't have to.

[jester1113]

Originally posted by Jaegermonster:
Maybe the trainer was an idiot and didn't get it and used the wrong drug/a drug to do the wrong thing. Maybe the the trainer lied and agreed with the vet that it was banamine to avoid admitting he used a more serious drug.

Exactly what I was thinking. Esp the second part.

[ComingAttraction]

Something else to think about: why did this trainer think that it was ok to drug this pony? Who were his/her role models? Where did he/she learn this? Scarey. We all have a responsibility to stand up for the horses we love. I am not anti-drug, however, I do believe that drugs can and should be used in a controlled, legal way, if needed.

[Jaegermonster]

Thank you Hokie and Slave. I can't believe some of these folks think I would make up something like this or worse, try to lie about it.

[Amwrider]

I don't know if the vet saw me on the other side of the wall, he wasn't really paying attention to who was around doing what since the whole showgrounds knew about it by the time he got there. And frankly the j&*^a^^ deserved to get reamed in front of everybody after what he did. He's lucky he didn't kill the horse.

Posted Feb. 20, 2006 09:03 PM
The trainer tried to lie to the vet about what happened "I have no idea why he seized" and the vet was like "BS, the only thing that would do this is Banamine". Then he saw me and asked me, and I told him I saw the trainer go in the stall with the syringe but I didn't know what was in it. My vet totally let him have it, right there in the stall.

[Pat]

To the OP: I’m not trying to hijack this thread. I agree with you that the trainer in question is a major jerk, a cheat and an idiot. There’s just been some interesting comments made about Banamine on this thread and thought the following was relevant.

From the Banamine product info slip (I found it)

Pharmacology: Flunixin meglumine is a potent, non-narcotic, non-steroidal, analgesic agent with anti-inflammatory and antipyretic activity. It is significantly more potent than pentazocine, meperidine, and codeine as an analgesic in the rat yeast paw test.

Indications: … is recommended for the alleviation of inflammation and pain associated with musculoskeletal disorders in the horse. It is also recommended for alleviation of visceral pain associated with colic in the horse.

Contraindications: There are no known contraindications to the drug when used as directed. INTRA-ARETERIAL injection should be avoided. Horses inadvertently injected intra-arterially can show adverse reactions. Signs can be ataxia, incoordination, hyperventilation, hysteria, and muscle weakness. Signs are transient and disappear with out antidotal medication with in a few minutes.

Adverse reactions: In horses, isolated reports of local reactions following intramuscularly injection, particularly in the neck, have been received. These include localized swelling, sweating, induration, and stiffness. In rare instances in horses, fatal or non-fatal clostridial infections or other infections have been reported in association with intramuscular use of Banamine. Also (paraphrase) rare instances of anaphylactic-like reactions, some fatal, have been reported primarily following IV use.

Obviously, Banamine could have caused the reaction reported by the OP. I do think that the vet was out of line for saying that Banamine was the only thing that could have, ‘cos plenty of other drugs have been know to cause severe reactions. Not out of line for dressing this guy down, tho.

Based on the info from the info slip, I’m thinking this idiot pushed the Banamine in the artery. It sounds to me like he was rushing, didn’t do the shot correctly and down went the horse.

I think the moral of the story (one, anyway) is that IV injections are not something you do willy-nilly. You must watch what you are doing, angle the needle properly, ASPIRATE so you know you placed it right, then push the drugs.

Ya know, I never even thought he agreed with the vet to avoid admitting he used something else. Perfectly plausible, he sounds like a real bone head any way.

Absolutely, what he did was not just inappropriate and dangerous, it was unethical. It doesn't matter what he used, the intent was to calm the horse, which is not allowed under Fed rules. Schooling show or not, it was WRONG!!

[Jaegermonster]

Thanks Pat.
To Amwrider, this is what happens when you take things out of context, kind of like using statistics for your own agenda.
The first post was later and in response to someone who made a comment basically questioning the vets professionalism in saying something in front of everyone.
The second post was earlier in the thread, and nowhere did I say that it was a minute by minute chronological account. I didn't realize that I needed to post a timeline for you or defend MY behavior. I beg your pardon, but I wasn't the one with the syringe. And if you read above your post, other people were also present for this little scene.
So if you have a question or something you would like to say please do. I see you are in FL. Is this trainer a friend of yours or someone you know? Maybe you or your trainer?

[Kenike]

Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've heard of quite a few trainers in AQHA and APHA breed shows using Banamine to cover up the soreness/lameness in their horses.

Banamine is legal within limits under AQHA rules, same as under USEF rules. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I should've worded that better...I've heard of quite a few using it in excess (high doses) to cover the lameness. I know it's still legal in breed shows, but I wasn't very clear. Sorry for the confusion.

[Amwrider]

Originally posted by Jaegermonster:
Thanks Pat.
To Amwrider, this is what happens when you take things out of context, kind of like using statistics for your own agenda.
The first post was later and in response to someone who made a comment basically questioning the vets professionalism in saying something in front of everyone.
The second post was earlier in the thread, and nowhere did I say that it was a minute by minute chronological account. I didn't realize that I needed to post a timeline for you or defend MY behavior. I beg your pardon, but I wasn't the one with the syringe. And if you read above your post, other people were also present for this little scene.
So if you have a question or something you would like to say please do. I see you are in FL. Is this trainer a friend of yours or someone you know? Maybe you or your trainer?

Not me, not any of my friends. I show breed shows, not hunters. I am not trying to put blame anywhere, I was just confused by what I saw as a contradiction.

[Jaegermonster]

Ok Amwrider, thanks for clarifying. I guess I was starting to feel as though I am the one under attack here(not necessarily by you), which is kinda screwed up. Don't kill the messenger, you know?
And I have to admit that as long as I have been around horses the whole incident was very upsetting, it still makes my stomach turn.

[mojotues]

I was also there and it is a very sad situation because unfortunately many people do know who the trainer was. My information was that it was given to the horse because it was sore in the hind end. I also heard the vet talking to the owner, but at a different time since he was looking at my horse who went lame at the show. And as clarification on why he was seizing, the person who administered the shot did hit an artery. The horse, however, was fine and should not have any lasting damage. It is also an unfortunate situation to have this organization have to deal with something like this when they try to bring a great fun show to the competitors.

[Huntermgr]

As the president of XYZ HJA and the show manager I agree with the originator of this email string that the incident that occurred during the horse show was a distressing totally unnecessary event. Our organization has never had this sort of event occur during a show and we handled the incident as best we could during the show. As manager I insured that appropriate emergency help was obtained for the horse by contacting a reputable equine vet who came to our assistance despite the fact the horse in question was not a client of his. This vet responded quickly and and provided competent medical help and counselled the owner of the horse regarding what had occurred. We were and continue to be very appreciative of this vet and his rendering of first aid in this circumstance. We also appreciate all the exhibitors who came to the aid of this horse and helped to prevent any further injury to the horse and those located in the immediate vincinity. As show manager I also insured that horses who were located adjacent to the "downed" horse were evacuated from their stalls to prevent the possibility of their becoming injured while the horse was down in his stall. Many of our exhibitors were naturally concerned about the horse and then relieved when they found out the horse was okay. That being said, the organization is now in the process of dealing appropriatley with the people involved in the incident and with putting policies in place to prevent such incidents occurring in the future. We will be talking directly to the people involved in this incident to make sure we, as an organization, have all the facts straight. We have spoken to people at USEF regarding drug policies, downloaded the USEF Equine Drug Rule and Program information, Chapter 4 Drugs & Medication Chapter of the USEF Rulebook, and their "Practical Advise Regarding the 2006 Equine Drugs and Medications Rule" to help us formulate an organizational policy. Although as a local schooling organization we are not bound by USEF rules we try to adher to its guidelines as best we can and will institute the guidelines necessary to provide a safe drug-free environment for our exhibitors and their horses. Our board will be meeting to discuss what actions we need to take as an organization and will be informing our membership of our policy and the consequences of not adhering to organizational policy.

Can we as an organization completely prevent doping or inappropriate use of drugs during a horse show? I am not naive enough to believe that to be true but I do believe we can put forth a strong policy and deal quickly and appropriately with individuals who decide to ignore the rules and whose actions are brought to our attention. If it is due to ignorance we will educate, if it is due to a deliberate decision to flaunt the rules, we will deal with the involved individuals according to guidelines we are setting up at this time. I appreciate the time and effort it took for all who have responded to this email string. Our organization is dedicated to putting on good safe horse shows and we will do whatever is required to make that happen.

[Jaegermonster]

I absolutely agree that this incident was handled beautifully by the show management. It could have had even more repercussions had they not reacted quickly and professionally.
The excellent management and positive attitudes exhibited by those in charge of this club are what makes their shows so much fun to attend and also a positive training environment for people and horses. I for one plan to continue to attend as many of their shows as I can.
Huntermgr, I think your response was well said and right on the money. I concur wholeheartedly, and also that the response of the club on how they will deal with this is exactly what I had expected of the board. Somehow I knew that this would not be swept under the shavings, so to speak.
Thank you for your response.

[big ben]

I think its time to set the record straight here.
Jaegermonster, the original poster, had many details about this horrible incident, however, they are simply incorrect. We had a situation where a horse was sore and uncomfortable, however we were not sure what the cause was. Whether he was sore from a lameness issue or colicing.(mild) A decision was made to try and give the horse some relief. The person giving the shot, first of all, not only was "SHE" not the trainer she is a full time vet tech for one of our vets in town AND she is not a MAN. I don't know who Jaegermonster saw in the stall but there was no man with any syringe, period.
The girl giving the shot accidentally hit an artery which is what caused the horse to sieze. The trainer, who is also a woman, not a man like Jaegermonster reported, had discussed giving the shot with the horse's owner, which is by the way, a young Adult, not a small child, also like Jaegermonster reported, and the girl's Mother. All were in agreement as to the giving of the shot. Banamine, by the way, is legal if used according to Usef guidelines. There was no other walk trot rider due to go in any classes with this horse. You are welcomed to check with the show mgmt to see that he was not entered in any walk trot division.
No other person except the owner ever rides this horse, and she does Adult crossrails. Which by the way, Jaegermonster, the adult crossrails were still going on, not a flat class like you reported. The owner was in the process of untacking her horse but had only removed the bridle when the vet tech came in to give the shot. The vet tech was also showing and had a class to get to, so they halted the process of untacking to give the shot, which is why the horse still had a saddle on. I can assure you know one was more devastated and sorry than the vet tech, to have this happen. She is a very responsible, kind, and caring individual. In additon, Jaegermonster, your recant of the conversation between the vet, the trainer, and owner was an outright lie. The first thing the vet said to the trainer, was that this happens.
He did say however that it is not good to give drugs at a horseshow. The trainer was almost 99 percent sure the horse was not going back in the ring because the horse was not himself, but the trainer had not totally discussed the issue with rider and her Mom yet. The trainer took this accident very hard, and takes the welfare of both her horses and students very seriously. She has done this for over 30 years. She does not have a policy of drugging horses except in instances where they need pain relief. To take a horrible situation and embellish the details into outright lies is uncalled for. I am not sure why you would choose to do this, other than for the sensationalism effect. I am sure you will refute all of this, which really is no concern now. I am just glad I have set the record straight. I am very sorry the accident occured, and by the grace of God, both horse and owner are fine. Jaegermonster, I AM THE TRAINER, and I am sorry you felt you had to do what you did.

[YankeeLawyer]

There are plenty of instances of doping horses to be concerned about but I don't count administering a dose of Banamine at a horse show to be one of them. Banamine is similar to Advil or Tylenol for humans, and can stave off colic attacks in horses that are under stress. If the USEF permits its usage within certain limits and the local XYJ horse association did not have a rule prohibiting its use, I really don't see what the issue is.

I keep Banamine on hand at the barn in the event any of my horses presents early warning signs of colic. I don't use it at shows, don't need to, but if I had a horse that needed it to be free of discomfort I would consider using it within the legally permissable limits.

(flame suit on)

[goeslikestink]

whoe-- bad trainer then-- if he has to result to drugs to get the horse to do as he wants

cheating and down right dangerous--


i hope the poor people and horse was ok

as for the trainer -- hope he goes phoof and dont get clients

[BaliBandido]

Originally posted by Huntermgr:
We have spoken to people at USEF regarding drug policies, downloaded the USEF Equine Drug Rule and Program information, Chapter 4 Drugs & Medication Chapter of the USEF Rulebook, and their "Practical Advise Regarding the 2006 Equine Drugs and Medications Rule" to help us formulate an organizational policy. Although as a local schooling organization we are not bound by USEF rules we try to adher to its guidelines as best we can and will institute the guidelines necessary to provide a safe drug-free environment for our exhibitors and their horses. Our board will be meeting to discuss what actions we need to take as an organization and will be informing our membership of our policy and the consequences of not adhering to organizational policy.

Can we as an organization completely prevent doping or inappropriate use of drugs during a horse show? I am not naive enough to believe that to be true but I do believe we can put forth a strong policy and deal quickly and appropriately with individuals who decide to ignore the rules and whose actions are brought to our attention. If it is due to ignorance we will educate, if it is due to a deliberate decision to flaunt the rules, we will deal with the involved individuals according to guidelines we are setting up at this time. I appreciate the time and effort it took for all who have responded to this email string. Our organization is dedicated to putting on good safe horse shows and we will do whatever is required to make that happen.

This is something our local association is trying to look into as well right now. Is there a way at a local level to monitor, prove and penilize people who do this? It seems to open a huge can of worms. When you say 'whose actions are brought to our attention.' Do you go on someones word? Do you have to just deal with it if situations like this come up? What we have struggled with is a way to find out that there has been 'medicating' on a horse without actually being USEF rated and therfor haveing testers possibly at the shows. But we are not rated, and how would we get testers, and how would exhibitors like it when they have the extra $$$ for testing? There are so many problems with trying to institute a drug policy at the local level, so many possible he said/she said scenarios and then the losing of competitors due to financial costs increasing. I'm not sure how to even go about it, except for having a policy that would ban someone if there was an incident like this one. However, now you have the trainer (I am taking big ben at their word) giving a completly different scenario where what happens seems entirely plausible. How do you handle that? What if the trainer can prove that what she says happened exactly like she said it did? Then the OP would in my opinion be in danger of a lawsuit, not that names were posted, but enough of the details given that one could suss out the identities pretty easily. In that scenario what was done is not illegal, even by USEF standards. It is allowable to give Banamine in that dosage provided they did not walk into the ring in less than 12 hours from time of injection.

So this scenario which was not discrete due to the violent nature of the reaction, led to much speculation that may in fact be untrue and has possibly caused damage to the reputation of the professional involved. If I was the trainer in this case and I (or my qualified representative)had given the horse banamine because I felt he was in distress (either due to tying up, mild colicy symptoms)and he had this reaction which caused rampant innuendo, speculation and the implication that I was cheating or was a needle freak, I would be really, really unhappy. Add to that the manager of the show and the president of the local association responds on a public BB and states 'That being said, the organization is now in the process of dealing appropriatley with the people involved in the incident and with putting policies in place to prevent such incidents occurring in the future. We will be talking directly to the people involved in this incident to make sure we, as an organization, have all the facts straight.' How can the organization deal appropriatly with this? What policy do they have? Do they have a policy, if not then how could it be violated?Can they prove it has been violated? And maybe talking directly to the people involved to get the facts straight should happen prior to airing it on a BB? You say you want to prevent things like this from happening in the future? What specifically are you talking about? The administering of a legal drug? The drug being administered improperly? Or the administration of drugs that are illegal according to USEF rules? I suspect it is the last one, which is great however it seems this incindent which may be entirely legal is lumped in with those who may be doing things that are not entirely legal. An attorney would have a feild day with all the heresay and innuendos of wrong doing with no medical evidence to back it up.

As a trainer, this type of speculation worries me. Rumors get started so easily and reputations can be damaged in a heartbeat. Yes I know some of the BNT out there have been set down and seemingly have not suffered, but I think at a local and state level the impact is felt much more. I don't know any of these people involved- but I feel very bad for the trainer who has been accused of something nefarious if in fact all she may have been doing was taking care of a horse under her supervision, with permission of the owners with the intent of alleviating possible pain.

As an officer in an association that is facing the same issues (although there has not been an incident like this one)I see many potential problems. I would hate to get sued for implicating a trainer for something that I was unable to prove, that was not technically illegal under the rules of the local association etc. Slippery slope.

I guess even if you have issues with some of the USEF policies, at least when you go to the rated shows there is somewhat of a deterent factor, clear rules about what is and is not allowed and pretty conclusive proof via testing.

[ESG]

Originally posted by big ben:
I think its time to set the record straight here.
Jaegermonster, the original poster, had many details about this horrible incident, however, they are simply incorrect. We had a situation where a horse was sore and uncomfortable, however we were not sure what the cause was. Whether he was sore from a lameness issue or colicing.(mild) A decision was made to try and give the horse some relief. The person giving the shot, first of all, not only was "SHE" not the trainer she is a full time vet tech for one of our vets in town AND she is not a MAN. I don't know who Jaegermonster saw in the stall but there was no man with any syringe, period.
The girl giving the shot accidentally hit an artery which is what caused the horse to sieze. The trainer, who is also a woman, not a man like Jaegermonster reported, had discussed giving the shot with the horse's owner, which is by the way, a young Adult, not a small child, also like Jaegermonster reported, and the girl's Mother. All were in agreement as to the giving of the shot. Banamine, by the way, is legal if used according to Usef guidelines. There was no other walk trot rider due to go in any classes with this horse. You are welcomed to check with the show mgmt to see that he was not entered in any walk trot division.
No other person except the owner ever rides this horse, and she does Adult crossrails. Which by the way, Jaegermonster, the adult crossrails were still going on, not a flat class like you reported. The owner was in the process of untacking her horse but had only removed the bridle when the vet tech came in to give the shot. The vet tech was also showing and had a class to get to, so they halted the process of untacking to give the shot, which is why the horse still had a saddle on. I can assure you know one was more devastated and sorry than the vet tech, to have this happen. She is a very responsible, kind, and caring individual. In additon, Jaegermonster, your recant of the conversation between the vet, the trainer, and owner was an outright lie. The first thing the vet said to the trainer, was that this happens.
He did say however that it is not good to give drugs at a horseshow. The trainer was almost 99 percent sure the horse was not going back in the ring because the horse was not himself, but the trainer had not totally discussed the issue with rider and her Mom yet. The trainer took this accident very hard, and takes the welfare of both her horses and students very seriously. She has done this for over 30 years. She does not have a policy of drugging horses except in instances where they need pain relief. To take a horrible situation and embellish the details into outright lies is uncalled for. I am not sure why you would choose to do this, other than for the sensationalism effect. I am sure you will refute all of this, which really is no concern now. I am just glad I have set the record straight. I am very sorry the accident occured, and by the grace of God, both horse and owner are fine. Jaegermonster, I AM THE TRAINER, and I am sorry you felt you had to do what you did.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Did anyone else find this as amusing as I did? What a crock. </span>

[VCT]

To the trainer:

Unless it is an emergency type of situation such as a severe colic, etc... there is no need to inject banamine IV. In fact the ONLY time I will do an IV shot is in a case of severe colic if the vet cannot arrive pronto or some equivalent emergency. I've never had this happen as I've always been lucky enough to catch colic early.

I always inject IM to avoid any possibility of hitting the artery. In an emergency would I do an IV shot? Yes... and I know how to. BUT I don't go doing them for no good reason.

Sorry but reasons like: not himself, a little sore behind or possibly mildly colicking???

Theres no reason to go IV. Go IM and avoid a risk when its NOT NEEDED.

Just something to consider in the future... don't take chances where they aren't needed. Anyone can make a mistake.