• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

So here's what happens when you try to cheat.....

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Well duh me...I KNEW that, just could not remember which was which (as in there are 2 veins almost on top of each other)..hence I will not IV anything..
    You are missing the main point here- the difference between a VEIN and an ARTERY. One is taking "used" blood back to the heart. The other is taking "fresh" blood from the heart to the body, and in the case of the main arteries near the jugular vein, to the BRAIN.

    There are plenty of cases when drugs are injected into the VEIN (hence the term "IV") but not generally into an artery.

    (If you are looking for the generic term that covers both "vein" and "artery", it is "blood vessel".)
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Amwrider:

      Penicillin should NEVER be given in the vein.
      That would depend upon the form of penicillin you were using.
      There are injectable forms of penicillin which are routinely administered intravenously.
      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

      Comment


      • #43
        I've never once heard of Banamine being given to calm a horse. Ace, sure.

        Demosedan, and (gulp) I think Rompun are both sedative and analgesic. Those are possibilities for this situation. If this trainer used banamine to calm a horse, he's an idiot.

        Any drug can cause a reaction. If you're allergic, you will have a reaction. I could be a rash, it could be a seizure. Also, as it's been said, missing the vein and injecting into the artery is very bad and can cause big problems.

        I'd also like to add that Banamine is a legal drug. Yes, there's a limit, but it is legal at AHSA, sorry, USEF competions. So are plenty of other drugs, like Bute and Robaxin, also with limits. Just because they are being administered doesn't mean someone was cheating. Stupid, maybe, but not cheating.

        Sedatives and tranquilizers are not legal. They have no theraputic use. They are only used to calm the horse (which would be cheating) so they are not allowed for competition.

        Now, on the subject of Banamine, I have been told that it does relax smooth muscle. When a schoolie was choking, my old vet instructed me to give Banamine and hang on till he got there. He said the esophagus was comprised of smooth muscle and Banamine had a relaxing effect on that kind of muscle. It alse made her feel a bit better until the nice man with the N-G tube arrived.

        I also think any calming effect noted after giving Banamine was due to the pain relief. I've never thought of it as anything other than an NSAID.

        Comment


        • #44
          Sedatives and tranquilizers are not legal. They have no theraputic use. They are only used to calm the horse (which would be cheating) so they are not allowed for competition.
          Sedatives and tranquilizers DO have a "therapeutic use", when used IN CONJUNCTION with a medical/veterinary procedure. For instance in order to stitch a wound.

          Not (apparently) in this case, though.
          Janet

          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

          Comment


          • #45
            (If you are looking for the generic term that covers both "vein" and "artery", it is "blood vessel".)
            Thanks Janet!!! I am such not an articulate person when it comes to medical terms!!!

            Better your way than "those two long thin tubes under the skin that the blood rushes though"

            Kim
            Your village is calling. Apparently their idiot is missing!

            Comment


            • #46
              OMG--poor horse! how awful!
              Glad the vet took him to task over it!
              My gelding went into anaphylectic (sp?) shock once and it was terrifying. I thought I lost him. I RARELY give shots now. I only feel slightly comfortable if it's a med that can be given by either IV or in the muscle. (like Keto)
              Hopefully people will not use this 'trainer' anymore and get the word out.

              Comment


              • #47
                First - this could have been a rare response to ANY drug, even banamine.

                But in any case, BornToRide is correct - this isn't cheating. It's abuse.

                I hope the trainer gets massive explosive diahrrea. For good.

                I simply can't imagine or justify why you would need to drug a horse for a walk trot class at a schooling show. Not that I think it's ever okay. It's one thing if I choose to take some painkillers so I can ride, it's another to force that decision on a horse.

                All you need is a few bucks and the website for Hodge's Ribbon Company. Or go on ebay and get some fab ribbons from Devon. No need to make a horse suffer.
                www.specialhorses.org
                a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                Comment


                • #48
                  I've heard of quite a few trainers in AQHA and APHA breed shows using Banamine to cover up the soreness/lameness in their horses. Could be that's what this fool was trying to do and the poor horse went into anaphalactic (sp) shock. Or, fool could've mixed drugs and not wanted to admit it....

                  either way, I'm with those who say it doesn't matter what was used, the trainer was cheating and the horse was abused.
                  "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    I've heard of quite a few trainers in AQHA and APHA breed shows using Banamine to cover up the soreness/lameness in their horses.
                    Banamine is legal within limits under AQHA rules, same as under USEF rules.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Sadly, it's not just schooling shows. When I was a junior, I watched a trainer drug a leadline pony at Devon. He said that it would make it "less bouncy". He also said that "no one tests leadline ponies". I was grooming for our barn and happened to walk by. What a sad excuse for trainer.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        I'm sorry, but this story doesn't make sense to me. If the point was to drug the horse to make him quiet, why wouldn't the trainer use a drug that would actually do that? Especially since it is an unrated show and he could actually get away with it? If he was giving it as pain relief for an arthritic old packer, why not bute? There are better drugs than banamine for that. And why would a vet say, "only banamine would cause this" when lots of things that are accidentally injected into an artery cause this? Or even simply allergic reaction, which could happen with any drug? Unless the vet KNEW that horse was allergic to banamine, in which case, why give it???? I dunno, I'm confused.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #52
                          Dressagegeek and Jester said it best, I think. Who knows what was in the trainer's mind when he hit the horse with whatever he pumped into it. Obviously his thought processes are a little messed up.
                          And whoever it was that posted that the show series in question is very nice and well run was also right on the money. As I said in my original post, they are great shows run by and attended by great people (except for this trainer apparently).
                          This is what I know because I saw with my own two eyes:
                          The kid was standing there dressed for her class holding the horse for the class which was supposed to start at the end of the flat class that had just entered the ring. The trainer walked in with a syringe, stuck it in IV, pushed it and the horse was down. It was horrifying to watch. Like I said before, there was a couple of seconds after the trainer walked in that I had stepped out, when I returned the horse was down.
                          Once things calmed down and the vet got there, the trainer admitted it when confronted and said that he chose Banamine since it was a kid and didn't want the horse too out of it and risk it falling or whatever.
                          I don't know if the vet saw me on the other side of the wall, he wasn't really paying attention to who was around doing what since the whole showgrounds knew about it by the time he got there, but we for sure spoke later. And frankly the j&*^a^^ deserved to get reamed in front of everybody after what he did. He's lucky he didn't kill the horse.
                          But I didn't post this to get into what drug goes in what vein and does what to who and why and whatever. I posted it because this trainer is an unprofessional unethical jerk who traumatized a horse and a little kid for no good reason.
                          "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I CAN'T believe that story is true or accurate. I have to agree with the the others who said this too...

                            -Like everyone has said, Banamine does not have a calming effect (unless the horse is upset because it is in pain. Then it is the pain releif not the Banamine that calms it)

                            -Why would he use it instead of cheaper more effective drugs if there was no testing?

                            -It is unfortunate the horse had a reaction and maybe he wasn't the best person to give the shot (obviously) but I don't necessarily think he was cheating or so unethical. It is legal at the rated shows. I don't think a little mediceinal (sp) therapy is always evil or cheating for performance animals or humans.
                            ~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
                            www.timberrunponies.com

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Don't get me wrong, given the stated situation, they guy's jerk and an idiot. Whether or not he used the drug that would illicit the response he wanted, he was absolutely wrong. His intent was to calm the horse, which is unethical.

                              Tranquilizers and sedatives do not have a theraputic use. Theraputic means they fix or atleast ease a condition. NSAIDS reduce pain and inflamation, Robaxin relaxs muscle, Gentocin fights infection.

                              Oh and I think it was mentioned that Banamine is antispasmodic. I don't think so. I wish I had the package insert, but I lost it. Figures. There are other drugs (Bucospan, I think) that are antispasmodic.

                              One of these days I'm going to get that reference book on equine drugs. Not a replacement for vet advice, but atleast you know what's what and how it works.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                I've known several people (even otherwise smart people ) who thought that Banamine could be used to calm a horse.

                                Ethically, it doesn't matter whether or not it WORKS, it matters whether the trainer THOUGHT it would work. Even at an unrated schooling show, drugging a horse to calm it down is unethical; it means that you potentially are going to place over better trained horses because of the chemical help. Whether it is against the rules or not is another question - but illegal and unethical are two different things!

                                I help run a local schooling show, and even though our rules do not prohibit drugs, this person would ABSOLUTELY be made to leave (as soon as the horse was stable enough) and would not be allowed back. We do have rules against abuse, and we do reserve the right to deny entries for any reason.
                                Proud member of the EDRF

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Kementari:
                                  I've known several people (even otherwise smart people ) who thought that Banamine could be used to calm a horse.

                                  Ethically, it doesn't matter whether or not it WORKS, it matters whether the trainer THOUGHT it would work. Even at an unrated schooling show, drugging a horse to calm it down is unethical; it means that you potentially are going to place over better trained horses because of the chemical help. Whether it is against the rules or not is another question - but illegal and unethical are two different things!

                                  I help run a local schooling show, and even though our rules do not prohibit drugs, this person would ABSOLUTELY be made to leave (as soon as the horse was stable enough) and would not be allowed back. We do have rules against abuse, and we do reserve the right to deny entries for any reason.
                                  Don't forget though Banamine is allowed in legal limits. I personally can't imagine having to go to a horse show and not be able to take anything for pain, inflamation etc. and I would hate to have to deny my horse anything. Although thinking that Banamine will calm a horse shows that this trainer had a very poor command of what the heck they were doing.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Wow. What if it had happened a few minutes later, when the kid was on or with the horse? Something really is wrong with the picture if the horse needed to be drugged that badly before going into a walk/trot class.

                                    What kind of example would it set if the horse didn't have a seizure? If the kid found out-what would it be teaching? That it is ok to tranq. a horse like that before going into the ring as a substitute to being able to have a properly trained horse?

                                    I know there are worse things you can do to horses, etc., but doing something like this to a kids horse is pretty high up there on my list.
                                    ~Kate
                                    Owned by Lit, 1988 Russian Arabian
                                    Member of the Bareback Riders Clique, Proud Closet Canterer

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Banamine is LEGAL as long as you follow the guidlines of the USEF. There are many drugs that are legal, bute, robaxin, ketophin etc. Banamine is in no way going to quiet a horse down. It will help with soreness or stiffness or if given in larger doses.....hide unsoundness. MANY MANY show horses are on MANY different drugs, as long as doses stay within the USEF limits then I see nothing wrong with it. I do see something wrong with some one giving a drug IV, if they clearly do not know what they are doing. JMO

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Don't forget though Banamine is allowed in legal limits. I personally can't imagine having to go to a horse show and not be able to take anything for pain, inflamation etc. and I would hate to have to deny my horse anything.
                                        Absolutely! And my 20 y/o TB gets bute (within legal limits) when he has a hard day, so obviously I don't have a problem with that. But that's what I was saying about illegal versus unethical. If I were giving bute to my horse to calm him down, my intent (and therefore my actions) would be unethical. (I would also be stupid, but that's another issue. )

                                        The USEF says (about the drug rule): "The rule does not accommodate the use in a horse of any drug or medication administered for a nontherapeutic purpose, e.g., to enhance performance." So while you would almost certainly not get in trouble for using Banamine within the set limits, you would, in fact, be in violation of the rule if you administered it to calm the horse (a nontherapeutic PURPOSE, whether that was the EFFECT or not).

                                        (Disclaimer: I realize the USEF rules don't matter at the show in question; I was just arguing the academic point. )
                                        Proud member of the EDRF

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #60
                                          To those of you who get the point of this whole thing, thank you.
                                          To those of you don't you probably never will. Maybe the trainer was an idiot and didn't get it and used the wrong drug/a drug to do the wrong thing. Maybe the the trainer lied and agreed with the vet that it was banamine to avoid admitting he used a more serious drug. Who knows? Like I said, obviously this trainer's thought processes are a little skewed.
                                          The point is to use any drug to enhance/change performance is against the rules and also unethical. And as someone else said, what is he teaching the kid? And what an introduction to horseshowing for the parents!
                                          I have no motivation to make this up or embellish it, and to be honest I thought most trainers who did stuff like this were a little more discreet. Just check with the club that does the schooling shows in Jax/Green Cove Springs, their president will verify that this occurred. I don't know the trainers name and even if I did I wouldn't post it here. But believe me I will get it to make sure I don't inadvertently take a lesson from him or send my filly to him for training. I already PTd somebody the name of my vet, and he can verify all of this.
                                          Thank God the horse didn't fall on the kid or someone else, or wait to have his reaction til the kid got on.
                                          "Perhaps the final test of anybody's love of dogs is their willingness to permit them to make a camping ground of the bed" -Henry T. Merwin

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X