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Duck Butt.

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  • Duck Butt.

    OK I come from the eventing world so maybe I don't understand.

    Why do the Hunter/Jumpers lay all the way down on the horse's neck over jumps. It seems really exaggerated and unnecessary.

    Is it for the good pics??

  • #2
    I don't get it either. I think of the elegant positions of those old US cavalry guys over fences from the old days. So much more attractive and functional than today's over-fences riders.

    Comment


    • #3
      Duck butt = fowl end?

      Comment


      • #4
        Don't chase me with pitchforks, but I always presumed it had something to do with the American tendancy to extrapolate some=good to more=better, resulting in odd-looking affectations. Ditto for the crippled Western Pleasure paces and whacked out paces of the big lick horses etc. Eventing and show jumping don't seem affected by this phenomenon, I guess because they are (mainly) objectively judged and so chasing the perceived preferences of the judge isn't an effective way to win.

        I could be (and often am) wrong, that's just my armchair psychologist take on it .

        Comment


        • #5
          It's exaggerated because you are trying to pretend that your horse has such a "back cracking" spectacular jump that jumps you out of the tack, that you had to throw yourself forward to try to stay with it....

          Then the ones riding regular flat, not so spectacular jumping horses see the pros doing it and try to emulate it.

          Comment


          • #6
            To me it is lazy jumping.
            Their position is weak and they are over-doing the release.
            See it here all the time in the SJers.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Southern Eventer View Post
              OK I come from the eventing world so maybe I don't understand.

              Why do the Hunter/Jumpers lay all the way down on the horse's neck over jumps. It seems really exaggerated and unnecessary.

              Is it for the good pics??
              For the same reason that eventers don't teach their horses lead changes, miss at least two distances per course, and just run at the jumps.

              Is it because they're just too lazy to school the basics into a horse?
              The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
              Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
              Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
              The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by kalidascope View Post
                Don't chase me with pitchforks, but I always presumed it had something to do with the American tendancy to extrapolate some=good to more=better, resulting in odd-looking affectations. Ditto for the crippled Western Pleasure paces and whacked out paces of the big lick horses etc. Eventing and show jumping don't seem affected by this phenomenon, I guess because they are (mainly) objectively judged and so chasing the perceived preferences of the judge isn't an effective way to win.

                It wasn't always this way. several decades ago, horse shows were an event to attend, just like any other sport. Our attitudes chased spectators away.

                I could be (and often am) wrong, that's just my armchair psychologist take on it .
                I think you make a good point, but your reasoning is a little flawed. Horse people in the US are far too cliquish and tend to do their own thing far away from the scrutiny of, not just the public, but of their own peers in other disciplines. No one attends our horse shows unless they are actually participating. We make absolutely no effort to include the general public. In general, most horse people here have nothing but disdain for non-horse people. It's very sad. We are losing trail access because of our seclusion. We will lose more trails, and even venues to show our horses, in the future if this trend doesn't change.

                There, a little self-criticism for breakfast.

                On the good side, there are a few out there that hold horse shows in conjunction with other events and get outsiders to attend and therefore CARE about horses. We NEED the public to care about horses or they will cut us off. Many of us try very hard to be ambassadors everywhere we go. I carry extra treats with me on public trails to give out for people (usually kids) who want to feed my horse. I even have a horse gentle enough that I do therapy visits with him. I didn't start out with horses friendly enough for the public to interact with, I demanded that they be polite and have good ground manners around everyone, but especially when I was in the saddle. They are taught to stand still and be polite. Once the treats start happening from strangers, they really shape right up. My current horse even slows down to a walk automatically when he sees us approach a pedestrian (which you are supposed to do anyway). Every horse I've ever owned could be at least fed treats by someone else. Too many times, we make fun of people who don't know our language or fail to understand our type of riding. We need to swallow our pride and patiently answer questions and gently correct any misconceptions people have about horses or disciplines. We all need to clean up our collective act in horse shows and not be so defensive when something is pointed out by an "outsider" who competes in a different discipline.
                “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

                St. Padre Pio

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sorry for the rant. That thread about the people in Florida honking and trying to spook horses made me ponder exactly why such things are happening. There are trails in Ca that people dump roofing nails on in hopes of discouraging horse people from riding on them. We can blame AR or other extremists, but the truth is, we are far too secluded and cliquish as a group to have the public's sympathy.
                  “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

                  St. Padre Pio

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
                    It's exaggerated because you are trying to pretend that your horse has such a "back cracking" spectacular jump that jumps you out of the tack, that you had to throw yourself forward to try to stay with it....

                    Then the ones riding regular flat, not so spectacular jumping horses see the pros doing it and try to emulate it.

                    ding ding ding ding... we have a winner!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It is a fad that started decades ago, used to be worse if you can believe that, just look at the COTH magazines some years ago.

                      It looks absurd, it is absurd, that has never stopped anyone from it, not in other we may do, not there in what I call "constipated duck" position.

                      As long as it is not judged against, I guess we will keep having those.

                      As much GM has done to help the horse industry, his insistence 40 years ago that now a crest release be used as a standard way of riding for more than the rare trick to help some rider that should have been kept on the longe line a bit longer but was not, that was a terrible idea, the way it took off.
                      We are still suffering from that fad.

                      I had students then that would take special classes with GM and came back doing that.
                      It was hard to convince them that, while it may help steady them if all went well, they were losing an effective base by doing that and becoming a sure missile, if the least went wrong while on that position.

                      I really was surprised it took GM so long to start apologizing for that and that other trainers went along with it, as so many did.

                      I thought this thread would be about those NH rope twirlers and their butt ducking horses.
                      That title would be a perfect name for some of the worst of those.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by microbovine View Post
                        Sorry for the rant. That thread about the people in Florida honking and trying to spook horses made me ponder exactly why such things are happening. There are trails in Ca that people dump roofing nails on in hopes of discouraging horse people from riding on them. We can blame AR or other extremists, but the truth is, we are far too secluded and cliquish as a group to have the public's sympathy.
                        Apples to oranges, comparing this thread to the one about the Florida subdivision. Seclusion and cliquishness is no excuse for others to disregard the safety of others and the general law of the land which is exactly what that thread is about.

                        Snarky commentary about Hunter butts doesn't compare to grown adults trying to scare children's mounts out from underneath them with their cars. One is snark that could hurt someone's feelings; the other is dangerous, illegal, and could result in the death of a child. I fail to see the comparison or how the latter could be justified because of perceived cliquishness.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I don't think the comment of the exaggerated hunter equitation is snarky in general, although I can see taking a little offense at the "duck butt." But if we're honest with ourselves, the popular position over fences is definitely exaggerated and not functional. And as stated it came about to show a back cracker (whether it is or not) and also to show the rideability (I can throw my reins away on this horse) There are non-optimal aspects in every discipline. Folks outside of each discipline will wonder and ask about the funny stuff in other disciplines, only natural. No need to take personal offense. (although I'm still not thrilled with hunter and jumper being lumped together since it's as alike as chalk and cheese) Jumper riders can also often be seen as having poor form depending on course and horse. The main difference seems to be hunters is more form over function and jumpers is more function over form. In general. At times either can be detrimental or beneficial to the round. IMO overall eventers do have the best function and form over fences at this time. But there are also aspects of eventing I, personally, don't like. As horse people we'll never agree on much. And it's true that we tend to keep ourselves separate and almost elitist compared t the general population. And we don't have to be wealthy to project being elitist, horse people do tend to think of themselves as better than everyone else. In terms on public support and acceptance, we shoot ourselves in the feet *all* the time.
                          You jump in the saddle,
                          Hold onto the bridle!
                          Jump in the line!
                          ...Belefonte

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You're right that the case in Florida is different than this thread, but I was exploring the origina of such behavior. Our horses are not regarded so highly by the public. Why? Well, we brought a lot of it on ourselves. Plus, if we can't stand together across disciplines and be open to criticism when our show style gets a little exaggerated, well, how are we supposed to unite over such things as trail and venue closures. All part of the same cycle.
                            “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

                            St. Padre Pio

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              apparently the "percieved snobbiness" of horse people varies around the country -
                              where I live, horses are considered 2nd class citizens compared to cows - worthless hayburners. Horse owners are stupid fools easily parted with their money.

                              What is happening in florida - YIKES and nasty. No excuse, but seems part of our society today. Duck butts - no comment...

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Yeah, the eventers attacking the hunters thing is getting pretty old, guys.

                                There are good and bad riders in every discipline, and every discipline has their own demons.

                                Unless you can find a perfect eight fences and hold your perfect equitation over 3'6" on a big jumping hunter, kindly STFU and focus on your own riding. You aren't saying anything that hasn't been said before, and you surely aren't adding to the conversation in any constructive way.

                                Also, what Meup said...
                                "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                                -George Morris

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I dunno, it sounds like the question was answered. The exaggerated position seems to be purely cosmetic going off the answers here.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                                    Yeah, the eventers attacking the hunters thing is getting pretty old, guys.

                                    There are good and bad riders in every discipline, and every discipline has their own demons.

                                    Unless you can find a perfect eight fences and hold your perfect equitation over 3'6" on a big jumping hunter, kindly STFU and focus on your own riding. You aren't saying anything that hasn't been said before, and you surely aren't adding to the conversation in any constructive way.

                                    Also, what Meup said...
                                    Well said!

                                    Southern, the question has been answered. More than once. Are you just trying to prove that you started this thread to be nothing more than a jerk by asking again and again or is there some other reason?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                                      Yeah, the eventers attacking the hunters thing is getting pretty old, guys.

                                      There are good and bad riders in every discipline, and every discipline has their own demons.

                                      Unless you can find a perfect eight fences and hold your perfect equitation over 3'6" on a big jumping hunter, kindly STFU and focus on your own riding. You aren't saying anything that hasn't been said before, and you surely aren't adding to the conversation in any constructive way.

                                      Also, what Meup said...
                                      LOL, unless you can jump across a log, into a lake, then across a ditch big enough to bury an elephant...

                                      There is no 'perfect' in a subjectively judged event.

                                      And erm, I hate to point that out, but in other parts of the world, beginners jump 3 feet as the norm....

                                      But back to the original question....or this thread will meet a fowl end.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Eventers, love y'all, but listen up:

                                        There is a very good reason for SOME professionals to do it.

                                        Let's watch Scott Stewart here for a good example. No offense to him, but he's kind of a short-legged, barrel-chested guy, a lot of whose weight is carried in the top half of his body...

                                        ....So think about the physics of this. What happens when you put all that weight down on a horse's neck over a jump?

                                        The horse overjumps a little bit to compensate, and whips its knees up outta the way.

                                        Since that is the look we want for the hunters, this is one practical way to (attempt to) produce it, or at least influence it.

                                        Of course this isn't going to work anywhere near as well for other riders not similarly conformed, but as we've been seeing for decades now, they're all going to try it!

                                        I doubt if any of the juniors (or half the ammies) could tell you WHY they are doing it, but the above theory is its origin.
                                        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

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