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Congress passes bill that allows Americas wild horses to go straight to slaughter.

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  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
    Staged? You've got to be kidding. Go back and look again. That's one heck of an expensive "set" they built if getting money from donors was their ultimate goal.

    I think the videos are an authentic representation of mass production slaughter of horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Examine the evidence. The lead-in blurb mentions that Texas is the only state in which horse slaughter occurs, then launches into a series of clips showing some pretty horrific stuff that one is apparently supposed to accept as the norm for the slaughter process in Texas. Presumably, one is not supposed to notice that the no country of origin or time frame is mentioned in the clips, no faces are shown, and one is apparently supposed to be ignorant of the effect on bruising on any equine carcass slaughtered for human consumption in the United States.

    In other classes of livestock in the States, if a bruise is found on the carcass, it is cut out and the USDA rating of the carcass can be lowered; at both Texas killer plants, the entire carcass is culled for a single bruise. Evidently, the French are rather finicky about black blood in their cheval.
    Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

    Comment


    • HeyYouNags,
      I do not mean to be insulting to you… but I think you might be misunderstanding what is meant by “staged.” And maybe "staged" is a bad choice of words, but it relates to the Silver Springs monkey trail, wherein the photos were in fact staged. In this instance, if for example XXX number of horses went through that (arguably hideous) slaughter house and were accurately hit with that gun (and the clips shown were the exception to the rule), then it is inflammatory or misleading to exploit that to the benefit of a particular agenda.

      And because of the Silver Spring situation, I wonder, who is at the other end of the gun? Is it an experienced worker, or was this filmed on a day when someone new to the job was on the line?

      God I can’t believe I am even trying to dissect that hideous film, but my point here is that “yes” it is inflammatory and sickening, but slaughter is a fact of life and any depiction of what actually happens in a slaughter house in going to be sickening and inflammatory. Using the horror of the slaughter house to advance an agenda is abhorrent.
      Logres Farm on Facebook
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      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeyYouNags:
        Anyone who thinks the slaughterhouse footage is staged is truly grasping for a way to support his or her position. That viewpoint is at least as extreme as the position of the anti-slaughter posters who've been picked apart, line by line.
        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
        Some folks are content to follow the crowds, some folks question where'n hell the crowd is going - and why. Line by line.

        I remind you that animal cruelty is against the law of every state in the United States; yet, despite the alleged abuses and tapes claiming to document those abuses, not a single witness has come forward and not a single tape has been placed in the hands of the various law enforcement agencies who could prosecute those involved. Did you ever stop to think, "Why?"

        If the tapes are authentic and truly document abuses occurring in the United States, whoever took the tape was an eye witness to the abuse.
        Why then are the tapes on websites begging for donations to fight the good fight instead of in some law enforcement agency's evidence room?
        Dare I point out the naiveté of anyone who believes the tapes are representative of the equine slaughter process in the United States?

        Could it be that the outfits distributing the tapes - of which, there are several - are engaging in a bit of deception in order to fill their coffers and prove once again the truth of Phineas T. Barnum's assessment of human intellectual frailty, to wit: "There's a sucker born every minute."
        Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Those videos were taken undercover in a Texas slaughterhouse. No horse lover can watch them and not be horrified. Bolting horses in the shoulder when they won't stand still is NOT humane by anyone's definition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          I agree. Bolting horses to make them stand still isn't humane. It's probably a felony in every county in every state in the union. As Tom says, why haven't these people focused on using CURRENT LAW to stop the inhumane practices? If this is truly happening every day, why not bombard the local DA, the local animal cops, the local news, with a video every day? That the horses will die is a given. That they need to be tortured is not.

          Banning "slaughter for human consumption" is a total red herring. The exact same processes can be used to slaughter horses for animal consumption, and will still be legal under any proposed legislation. The horse does not care how his body is used, only what happens to him when he is alive.
          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

          Comment


          • I should let this thread fade away, but here goes:

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Did you ever stop to think, "Why?"
            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Yes, I have questioned. And answered.

            It is naive to think that any and every incidence of animal cruelty can be presented to law enforcement and successfully prosecuted. It is naive to think that law enforcement has the resources or the inclination to pursue the cases. In states such as TX, where much of animal cruelty enforcement lies in the hands of the local sheriff's dept., an informed observer might note that the members of the force prefer to involve themselves with criminal activity that directly impacts humans. I'll refrain from easy jokes about pursuit of donuts.

            Consider also the time and energy required to prove what in many jurisdictions would be just a low-fine misdemeanor. And the energy and resources big businesses are able to tap into to defend themselves against such charges. And the exemption of some activities as "normal agricultural practices" - language that does appear in some state animal cruelty laws.

            Do animal protection orgs. use the tapes to raise money? Yes. They are non-profits, that's how they stay afloat. It's marketing. So is a website with a folksy writing schtick.

            It's also perfectly logical grassroots lobbying. Since the organizations can't get local law enforcement to take interest, they take their case to the court of public opinion, and hope to make changes on a larger scale, statewide or nationally. That approach is certainly not unique to any single interest group.

            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "There's a sucker born every minute."
            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            And suckers sit on both sides of the aisle.

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeyYouNags:
              I should let this thread fade away, but here goes:
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Did you ever stop to think, "Why?"
              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
              Yes, I have questioned. And answered.

              It is naive to think that any and every incidence of animal cruelty can be presented to law enforcement and successfully prosecuted. It is naive to think that law enforcement has the resources or the inclination to pursue the cases. In states such as TX, where much of animal cruelty enforcement lies in the hands of the local sheriff's dept., an informed observer might note that the members of the force prefer to involve themselves with criminal activity that directly impacts humans.
              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
              Delve a little deeper, you've barely scratched the surface.

              As an informed observer and resident of the state of Texas, allow me to point out that your statement is needlessly obfuscatory. This is not about "any and every incidence of animal cruelty," it's about allegations of ongoing cruelty during the slaughter of horses in Texas and the disingenuous presentation of videotaped "evidence" of those allegations on various anti-slaughter websites.

              Cruelty to horses being held for, in transport to, or while at, a killer plant is covered under the Texas Criminal Statutes Sec 42.04 (a)(1)(2) and (4). First conviction is a class A misdemeanor - meaning up to a year in a county facility and up to a $4,000 fine. Second conviction is a state jail felony, and the third a 3rd degree felony.

              Bel Tex is in Ft. Worth, Texas Crown is in Kaufman (near Dallas) and neither is all that popular with the town folks - not because they have anything against horse slaughter, but from the NIMBY viewpoint associated with property values - traffic, odors, waste, etc.

              Given the political climate in both places, the minions of the law in either place would be extremely receptive to any eye witness account of animal cruelty, especially if such an account were accompanied by videotape - as soon as anyone reported criminal activity backed up by videotape at either facility, the place would have yellow tape across the doors before the ink was dry on the criminal complaint and it would be the lead story on the 6 o'clock news.

              It hasn't happened.

              Obviously, the tapes were NOT made at either Bel Tex or Dallas Crown, but they are still being used to give folks the impression they were made at a Texas killer plant. The tactic is more than a little disingenuous, but the sordid history of the so-called, "animal welfare", movement is riddled with end-justifies-the-means tactics.
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              Do animal protection orgs. use the tapes to raise money? Yes. They are non-profits, that's how they stay afloat. It's marketing. So is a website with a folksy writing schtick.
              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
              Look again. While SHARK claims to be a non profit entity, it apparently doe not meet the IRS criteria for non profit status as donations are not claimed to be tax deductible.
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "There's a sucker born every minute."
              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
              And suckers sit on both sides of the aisle.
              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
              True! A "sucker" is anyone who fails to thoroughly investigate a proposition before accepting it as valid.

              By the way, what's the official AAEP position on horse slaughter?
              Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

              Comment


              • I believe Tom raises an interesting point about why this video evidence appears, as far as we know, not to have been used as criminal evidence. I would imagine one of us could simply call the organization and ask them.

                Through my work at a foundation, I have access to www.guidestar.org. A national database of non profits. Its basic search is free to the public. And good for everyone to use to check whether non profits are legally non profits. SHARK (Showing Kindness And Respect To Animals) does have federal 501(c)3 status and contributions are therefore tax deductible. A snapshot from the last financials (2002) loaded on guidestar is:

                Revenue $176,725
                Expenses $152,176
                Assets $136,216
                Liabilities $41,232

                Comment


                • I can't see the videos for some reason (thank god). But I have seen similar videos of supposed slaughterhouse cruelty. I am sure it goes on. They are trying to process too many animals, mistakes are bound to happen. Animals and workers alike are going to suffer. I feel you have to always question the validity of anything. I would also wonder why these tapes wouldn't be taken to the authorities. In the case of huge cattle slaughter plants, I couldn't help but think the law might choose to look the other way since the livestock industry is very influential and powerful. But is there the same amount of money on the line with a horse slaughterhouse?

                  I wonder if this footage might have been taken in another country. I understand Mexico doesn't have near the laws that the US does.

                  We know there are problems in the factory farming and slaughtering of animals from chickens all the way up to horses. Slaughtering animals is not going away anytime soon. There are millions of people who probably have never even seen what steak, bacon, or KFC looks like before it lands on their plate. They cannot relate it too a living creature that deserves to be treated as such and killed humanely. Personally, I don't like the idea of horses being slaughtered and eaten. Other people eat horses no problem. I don't have a problem eating beef, I just prefer to see it done humanely. That is the main reason we raise, slaughter and process our own meat. I know where it came from, what it was fed, how it lived and how it died.

                  Comment


                  • When mr. poltroon had snakes, he fed them rats. "Eeww," people said. "That's so cruel! Can't you just feed them chicken from the supermarket?"
                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeyYouNags:
                      I should let this thread fade away, but here goes:
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Did you ever stop to think, "Why?"
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                      Yes, I have questioned. And answered.

                      It is naive to think that any and every incidence of animal cruelty can be presented to law enforcement and successfully prosecuted. It is naive to think that law enforcement has the resources or the inclination to pursue the cases. In states such as TX, where much of animal cruelty enforcement lies in the hands of the local sheriff's dept., an informed observer might note that the members of the force prefer to involve themselves with criminal activity that directly impacts humans.
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                      Delve a little deeper, you've barely scratched the surface.

                      As an informed observer and resident of the state of Texas, allow me to point out that your statement is needlessly obfuscatory. This is not about "any and every incidence of animal cruelty," it's about allegations of ongoing cruelty during the slaughter of horses in Texas and the disingenuous presentation of videotaped "evidence" of those allegations on various anti-slaughter websites.

                      Cruelty to horses being held for, in transport to, or while at, a killer plant is covered under the Texas Criminal Statutes Sec 42.04 (a)(1)(2) and (4). First conviction is a class A misdemeanor - meaning up to a year in a county facility and up to a $4,000 fine. Second conviction is a state jail felony, and the third a 3rd degree felony.

                      Bel Tex is in Ft. Worth, Texas Crown is in Kaufman (near Dallas) and neither is all that popular with the town folks - not because they have anything against horse slaughter, but from the NIMBY viewpoint associated with property values - traffic, odors, waste, etc.

                      Given the political climate in both places, the minions of the law in either place would be extremely receptive to any eye witness account of animal cruelty, especially if such an account were accompanied by videotape - as soon as anyone reported criminal activity backed up by videotape at either facility, the place would have yellow tape across the doors before the ink was dry on the criminal complaint and it would be the lead story on the 6 o'clock news.

                      It hasn't happened.

                      Obviously, the tapes were NOT made at either Bel Tex or Dallas Crown, but they are still being used to give folks the impression they were made at a Texas killer plant. The tactic is more than a little disingenuous, but the sordid history of the so-called, "animal welfare", movement is riddled with end-justifies-the-means tactics.

                      <span class="ev_code_RED">Ah, but we can also ask why have the plants not come out in their own defense. If these were not made there it would be in their best interest to file fraud charges, no? </span> <span class="ev_code_RED">Do you know for a fact SHARK or any other organization hasn't brought these to the attention of a DA or law enforcement? Also SHARK is far from ELF, lets not go that route?</span>
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                      Do animal protection orgs. use the tapes to raise money? Yes. They are non-profits, that's how they stay afloat. It's marketing. So is a website with a folksy writing schtick.
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                      Look again. While SHARK claims to be a non profit entity, it apparently doe not meet the IRS criteria for non profit status as donations are not claimed to be tax deductible.
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "There's a sucker born every minute."
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                      And suckers sit on both sides of the aisle.
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                      True! A "sucker" is anyone who fails to thoroughly investigate a proposition before accepting it as valid.

                      By the way, what's the official AAEP position on horse slaughter? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      <span class="ev_code_RED">Ah we know where they stand now don't we. However ask some vets personally and you will get a different answer. One entity does not speak for all. Just as I'm sure there are some racing folks who are pro-slaughter.</span>
                      NO HORSES TO SLAUGHTER CLIQUE
                      http://www.cafepress.com/maneshirts

                      Comment


                      • Here's a question. Sterilization to me would be an acceptable way to control the population of feral horses. It's been mentioned on this thread that it's not cost effective. Are the costs of gelding really that greater than rounding them up, sorting, and auctioning suitably adoptable ones?

                        Dead horses being used as meat doesn't bother me. As others have said, it's what happens in the days/hours/minutes leading up to the actual slaughter that I can't bear to think about. If some bizarre twist of fate out of my control occurs. And a horse of mine was about to be shipped to auction for slaughter. I would find a gun, walk out into the pasture, and shoot them in the head myself.

                        At some point wasn't there focus on eliminating stress hormones prior to slaughter in cattle? Something about adverse effects on the meat? An autistic professor (?) who developed new designs for slaughter houses? Spirals so the animals couldn't see around a corner?

                        Comment


                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MandyVA:


                          I grew up on a beef cattle farm and could have told you the name of who we were having for dinner on any given night, but that did not bother me. Cows are stupid. I know it can be argued that pigs are smarter than horses, etc., and why should intelligence be the deciding factor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          It's okay to slaughter cows because cows are stupid but intelligence shouldn't matter when deciding a pigs fate? Huh?

                          And BTW, pigs are smarter than some people I know. They definitely have horses beat.

                          I have to agree with Tom. My personal affection for horses makes slaughter hard to stomach FOR ME. But they are livestock. And I prefer not to eat ANYTHING I've known personally. My youngest daughter's 1st grade teacher told me at our last conference that my oldest daughters 4H lamb, Peanut, was in her freezer. We laughed a bit (halfheartedly on my part) and then I threatened her to NEVER tell my daughter. I was so relieved when a potbelly pig rescue picked up another of her lambs. We focus on that when discussing what happened to her lambs. She knows...but it's no easier for us because they aren't horses. I'm soft-hearted that way. It's the life of a farmer's wife and farmer's daughters. We deal with it but I'm SO glad my daugher is raising a heifer this year that we get to keep

                          Comment


                          • Can anyone tell me more about why sterilization/birth control won't work? I heard at some point about something along the lines of birth control being developed for deer. Seems like shooting birth control darts would be perfect entertainment for our hunters. No one killing anything, controlling the population and a bunch of testosterone-driven men driving pick-ups getting their jollys. Makes everyone happy. Any chance of anything like that being developed? I'm sure they'd be enough volunteer "labor" to keep the prices down. (Only half kidding there).

                            Anyway, anyone have any information/insight?

                            Comment


                            • As far as I know, the sterilization method would be a shot given to the mares that lasts about three years. The cost would come in rounding the horses up and giving them the shot. I think that that cost would initially be high, but would would even out in the end with less horses to be run through the adoption system or kept in long term holding. If they are going through with this selling off unadoptables, it only makes sense to put the money into the sterilization and keep the populations down so we don't have this problem again. Write our government and tell them you support sterilization! Many wild horse advocacy groups have protested this because they feel it will mess up the gene pool.

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
                                I believe Tom raises an interesting point about why this video evidence appears, as far as we know, not to have been used as criminal evidence. I would imagine one of us could simply call the organization and ask them.

                                Through my work at a foundation, I have access to http://www.guidestar.org. A national database of non profits. Its basic search is free to the public. And good for everyone to use to check whether non profits are legally non profits. SHARK (Showing Kindness And Respect To Animals) does have federal 501(c)3 status and contributions are therefore tax deductible.
                                <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                Thanks for the head's up. I wonder why they don't mention that contributions are tax deductible? As badly as I hate to admit it, maybe they did and I missed it.

                                At any rate, If I were King Dubya, I'd have my wildlife biologists tell me how many feral horses a given range would support, then I'd have my Army and Marine snipers shoot the number of horses in excess of that number, starting with the old and infirm.

                                When you think about it, that'd probably be the most cost effective and least stressful method of feral horse population control. It'll probably never happen: it makes to much sense to be politically correct and it doesn't entail the creation of a large, wasteful, bureaucracy.
                                Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

                                Comment


                                • Here is a link to a final decision to and Environmental Assessment done on use contraceptives in wild mares in the Pryor Mt. Range.

                                  http://www.mt.blm.gov/bifo/whb/PMWHR/index.html

                                  Comment


                                  • And another link to a study done on wild horses in the Pryor's with range conditons, photos, etc.

                                    http://www.mt.blm.gov/bifo/horses_files/index.htm

                                    Comment


                                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SweatySaddlepad:
                                      <span class="ev_code_RED">Ah, but we can also ask why have the plants not come out in their own defense. If these were not made there it would be in their best interest to file fraud charges, no?
                                      </span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                      The SHARK website alleging cruelty in the slaughter process does not claim the horrific video clips were made in Texas. There is no place of origin or time frame mentioned; instead, they claim, correctly, that the only killer plants in operation in the USA are in Texas, then go right into the clips, disingenuously attempting to lead folks to believe the clips were made in Texas. The end justifies the means when you're on the side of righteousness.
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                      <span class="ev_code_RED">Do you know for a fact SHARK or any other organization hasn't brought these to the attention of a DA or law enforcement? Also SHARK is far from ELF, lets not go that route?</span>
                                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                      I don't know that SHARK is any different from any of the other so-called, "animal welfare" outfits. Come to think of it, I don't even know what "ELF" is. I think you mean "ALF".

                                      To my knowledge, no charges of cruelty or other impropriety associated with the slaughter process have been filed against either Bel Tex or Dallas Crown. In 2002 Texas Attorney General John Cornyn issued Opinion No. JC-0539 which affirmed an obscure Texas statute prohibiting horse slaughter for human consumption. Bel Tex and Dallas Crown immediately sued in federal court on the grounds they were engaged in interstate commerce and not subject to state laws governing commerce. The case is still pending and both killer plants are in operation.
                                      Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

                                      Comment


                                      • Tom.. you’re an interesting guy… refreshing actually. Arthur and I have enjoyed your posts, but I was thinking that in 9 pages this topic is starting to wind down a bit. So, where the heck is Katy, Texas? Is it anywhere near Paris, Texas? And what does CJF stand for? Certified XXX Farrier?
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                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, where the heck is Katy, Texas? Is it anywhere near Paris, Texas? And what does CJF stand for? Certified XXX Farrier? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Katy is 30 miles west of Houston on I-10. My shop is about 3 miles northeast of Katy, on Morton Ranch Road.

                                          Katy is about 300 miles south of Paris.

                                          "CJF" is an acronym for "Certified Journeyman Farrier." http://katyforge.com/jnymn.html
                                          Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

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