Congress passes bill that allows Americas wild horses to go straight to slaughter.

[Susan P]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susan P:
There is nothing humane about horse slaughter...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Have you, personally, ever witnessed the slaughter of horses with a captive bolt? If not, then you simply don't know what you're talking about, you're operating on the hysteria an prejudice that infests portions of horsedom. Spend a day on the kill floor at Bel-Tex, then get back to this forum with your personal reportage of what exactly you find to be inhumane in the slaughter process. Whatever else it is, it's not inhumane.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

I've never been to Texas either but I believe it's there, I've seen enough photos and spoken to enough eye witnesses that have experienced it. I would not subject myself to such horrors. All slaughterhouse atrocities need to be addressed. You're opinion doesn't impress me since I also believe your replies to reveal a cold and callous person more interested in showing off your superior intellect that to be a human. Are you human?

Again, tell me the horses are publicly owned? Do you own any cattle on the publicly owned land? Do you have friends who do? What is your interest in this matter? Why are you so bent on protecting the cattlemen and killing the horses? I think I have good reason to be suspicious. The horsemeat doesn't go to feed starving children in India or Africa, it primarily goes to feed prominent gourmet diners in Europe and Asia.

Horses ARE stolen to fill the quota to get the best price per pound, would you deny that? In CA where they banned horseslaughter the neglect, abuse and theft has been noticed to decrease, certainly not become a bigger problem.



If we move anything off public land it should be privately owned cattle, not the publicly owned horses. My stats are accurate, everyone can look them up themselves, I put the link to the BLM site right in the post. You didn't, you check them out if you have something to say about them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Close, but no cigar. Next time you access the stats, check out numbers of estimated feral horse AUMs in relation to the cattle/sheep AUMs.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I am suspect of anyone so eager to have American horses slaughtered to feed foreign countries.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Funny, I'm suspect of anyone so desperate to push an agenda and so out of touch with fiscal reality they'd rather see a horse's carcass go to waste instead of feeding a hungry human. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not out of touch with fiscal reality to protect our American treasure, we spend more money on brick and mortar, maintaining monuments and statues. Why aren't you complaining about that. Buildings, don't feel pain, they aren't alive. If these monuments and statues disappeared tomorrow the world would not be worse off because of it. Still suspicious, don't trust people who don't protect and love animals. Don't care what you think, and no one else on this board should either.

[Karosel]

The theory of the captive bolt does work. I have been in slaughter houses. (my family runs a cow/calf operation, but we keep a few stockers for our selves). But we all know, (this includes my dad and his farmer friends) that in an assembly line slaughter house that the "knocker" doesnt always take the time to ensure they put the bolt through the correct place on the head. Sometimes they have to use the bolt gun more than once. If the proper time is taken to ensure the correct usage of the captive bolt then yes it is the most humane method. But in huge slaughter houses that are processing about 20, 000 head per day if not more the time is not taken for EVERY animal that is processed.

[MCJumper]

Thats what we get for re-electing Bush. Such a dumbass...makes me sick.

[Tom Stovall CJF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susan P:
I've never been to Texas either but I believe it's there, I've seen enough photos and spoken to enough eye witnesses that have experienced it. I would not subject myself to such horrors. All slaughterhouse atrocities need to be addressed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In other words, you're operating on hearsay, you have no personal knowledge of the slaughter process and don't really know if "atrocities" exist or not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You're opinion doesn't impress me since I also believe your replies to reveal a cold and callous person more interested in showing off your superior intellect that to be a human. Are you human?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is this the obligatory claim to the moral high ground? Or, did you feel you needed to bolster an argument based on hearsay, supposition, and conjecture with a bit of ad hominem?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Again, tell me the horses are publicly owned?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes'm, all feral horses on BLM land are the property of the citizenry.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do you own any cattle on the publicly owned land? Do you have friends who do?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. Yes.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
What is your interest in this matter?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Economics. According to the AP, pandering to the irrational prejudices of a vocal minority has cost the Great Unwashed American Taxpayer about $20,000,000 every year since 1972.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Why are you so bent on protecting the cattlemen and killing the horses?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Since cattle on BLM land account to less than 3% of all US cattle production, my interest in "protecting the cattlemen" hovers around zero; on the hand, protecting BLM land - which is also owned by the GUAT - gets my attention. Any population of feral horses in excess of the carrying capacity of a given range unarguably has a deleterious effect on the range.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I think I have good reason to be suspicious. The horsemeat doesn't go to feed starving children in India or Africa, it primarily goes to feed prominent gourmet diners in Europe and Asia.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So? While it makes no difference to the horse, it seems to make a considerable difference to the terminally prejudiced.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Horses ARE stolen to fill the quota to get the best price per pound, would you deny that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I fear you've lost me: What exactly is a "quota?" All livestock theft increases when prices are high and decreases when prices are lot. Historically, livestock theft increases around Christmas: Shall we ban Christmas?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In CA where they banned horseslaughter the neglect, abuse and theft has been noticed to decrease, certainly not become a bigger problem.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
California banned the transport of horses for slaughter for HUMAN consumption, a basically unenforceable piece of legislation. And, FYI, since that time, reported incidents of abuse have increased, not decreased.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If we move anything off public land it should be privately owned cattle, not the publicly owned horses.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Get it through your head that it doesn't make any difference if the cattle are moved off tomorrow, the horses will still have to go or the land will suffer irreparably.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
My stats are accurate, everyone can look them up themselves, I put the link to the BLM site right in the post. You didn't, you check them out if you have something to say about them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your stats are meaningless because they are livestock numbers, not AUMS. If you're going to argue range management, please learn a little about the subject instead of crowing over meaningless numbers as if they were writ on tablets of clay.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
It's not out of touch with fiscal reality to protect our American treasure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A BLM fenceline does not a treasure make. Feral horses are no more a "treasure" than their domestic cousins on the other side of the fence.

[Karosel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Susan P:
I've never been to Texas either but I believe it's there, I've seen enough photos and spoken to enough eye witnesses that have experienced it. I would not subject myself to such horrors. All slaughterhouse atrocities need to be addressed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In other words, you're operating on hearsay, you have no personal knowledge of the slaughter process and don't really know if "atrocities" exist or not.
[QUOTE]

Ahhh but I do. Funny how you have failed to reply to my post. I dont think the horses should be slaughterd. And this is coming from someone whoes education is being funded by the cattle industry.

[Ridge Runner]

I'm staying out of this slaughter discussion this time as I've found it to be a no win discussion generrally but I'll be accommodating and post some videos from inside a slaughter house and how "humane" death by captive bolt inside a slaughterhouse is for a horse....

http://www.sharkonline.org/horseslaughter.mv

The videos are very graphic so consider yourself warned.

[Susan P]

We don't slaughter our dogs and cats for meat to send to Asian countries where they are eaten and Americans love their horses just as much.

That's enough of a basis not to slaughter horses.

I don't think Mr. Stovall's responses are true, he hasn't shown any evidence so why would anyone believe his informatin either.

Have you been to every state in the Union Mr. Stovall? Do you know for sure they are all there?

I'll give you one thing, you are persistant. As you say, all farriers lie. I can't believe that for someone as articulate as you are that you are a farrier. Do you talk to the horses like that too? I don't think you bother to talk to the horses at all, they're just equipment.

[Tom Stovall CJF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karosel:

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In other words, you're operating on hearsay, you have no personal knowledge of the slaughter process and don't really know if "atrocities" exist or not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Ahhh but I do. Funny how you have failed to reply to my post. I dont think the horses should be slaughterd. And this is coming from someone whoes education is being funded by the cattle industry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are familiar with the process, then you know that the captive bolt is about as humane as it gets in terms of an instant flatline. Operator error is always a possibility, but that possibility exists with every form of livestock slaughter.

I'm aware of the sentiments of several members of this forum relative to horse slaughter, but I'm curious as to why anyone would sanction the humane slaughter of cattle, hogs, sheep and goats, but not horses. All are livestock.

I'm especially curious to know why anyone would be opposed to allowing someone else to dispose of their horses in any humane manner of their choosing. An overdose of barbiturate, a bullet on the "X", or a captive bolt achieve the same results. Some folks have no cultural bias against eating horsemeat; others find this lack of bias repugnant.

After one gets by all the hysteria and buzzwords surrounding the issue, it boils down to one segment of society's attempting to impose its prejudice on the rest of society on the basis of a non-existent moral imperative.

[Tom Stovall CJF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susan P:
We don't slaughter our dogs and cats for meat to send to Asian countries where they are eaten and Americans love their horses just as much.

That's enough of a basis not to slaughter horses.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to the USDA, dogs and cats are companion animals, horses are livestock.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I don't think Mr. Stovall's responses are true, he hasn't shown any evidence so why would anyone believe his informatin either.

Have you been to every state in the Union Mr. Stovall? Do you know for sure they are all there?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You digress. At issue is the slaughter process: I've seen it, you haven't.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'll give you one thing, you are persistant. As you say, all farriers lie. I can't believe that for someone as articulate as you are that you are a farrier.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you feel my failure to substitute prejudice for reason somehow makes me less a farrier?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do you talk to the horses like that too? I don't think you bother to talk to the horses at all, they're just equipment.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I give verbal instructions to horses quite frequently, but I never talk to them in hope of a verbal response.

[Cartier]

Tom Sir…
You are bright, articulate, persuasive as all hell and pretty much dead on accurate… still, after viewing the videos on Daydream Believer’s link… well, there simply must be a better solution. I think a bullet in the head on an open range would be preferable.

[CHJoker]

LOL, in this day and age, horses ARE overwhelmingly used as **companion animals**.

They are not eaten in the US, and they are not used in the majority of farming or ranching activities anymore (yes ,I know some places, with alot of open range, still use horses to round up cattle, etc,). But, as the posts here show, horses are seen as pets, and treated as such by many (myself included!)

I am actually not anti slaughter, in that, there is not a big difference to me in eating a pig, horse, or a cow...or even a dog or cat...except for my personal feelings attached to the animal. Of course, some people like to eat other people, and that is another interesting discussion (anyone remember the uproar in Germany a few years ago when a man advertised on EBAY for a person to eat, and someone replied, and agreed to be killed and eaten???) But I digress...

Only cultural norms dictate what meat we eat and what we don't. IMHO, though, COMPASSION should be shown by any civilized society to all animals unlucky enough to be deemed "edible".

Killing ANY animal for food should be done as HUMANELY as possible, and offenders (such as what is seen on various videos on the anti slaughter sites) should be heavily prosecuted.

I would LOVE to have every single horse in the world who was no longer wanted (for whatever reason) put in my own private barn and cared for for the rest of their natural lives. But , the reality is, I can only offer that to MY horse, as sad as that is.

To put it in perspective, I would rather a horse be killed humanely than starved or neglected long term (I would wish the same for myself, in fact ). But I agree, it should be as quick and painless to the animal as possible. After that point, if they are eaten, I don't really think it makes much of a difference.

[Ridge Runner]

Cartier,

Those videos were taken undercover in a Texas slaughterhouse. No horse lover can watch them and not be horrified. Bolting horses in the shoulder when they won't stand still is NOT humane by anyone's definition. Mr. Stovall needs to watch them if he has not yet done so.

If it could be done humanely without putting the horses through terror and fear, I might not be so opposed to slaughter but I sincerely believe that there is no way to ever run production line mass slaughter humanely..of any animal and particularly horses due to their conformation and temperments. I will not argue the slaughter of food animals in the same topic as horses because I do believe it is two seperate issues in America, but I support measures to make it as humane as possible for animals raised for food in the US.

[MandyVA]

Just to address Tom's question about why it's ok to slaughter cows, pigs, etc., but not horses, my take on this is that horses simply react differently than those other animals. Horses interact differently with each other and with people when in trailers, in small pens, and when being handled than cows or pigs do.

I grew up on a beef cattle farm and could have told you the name of who we were having for dinner on any given night, but that did not bother me. Cows are stupid. I know it can be argued that pigs are smarter than horses, etc., and why should intelligence be the deciding factor. But I think anyone that has been around the various livestock and dealt with them extensively can tell you that it's hard to explain, but they're just very different. No matter how smart your pig is or how docile your cow is, its sensitivity and capacity for reacting to the world around it will never be like a horse's.

I think the distinction probably makes no sense and seems like some romantic notion about horses to people that haven't been around horses/cattle/pigs extensively. There's other things I could bring up, such as the propensity for horses to fight when kept in such cramped quarters, and their athleticism making it much harder to restrain them for slaughter. It's not the actual eating of the horses that I have a problem with, it's the overall picture: the transport, the storage, and the handling of the horse before it is actually killed. I just don't think there is a way to do that without inflicting a lot of pain and fear on a highly sensitive animal.

Tom also mentioned that the horse is dead whether euthanized or slaughtered. But there is an enormous difference between a veterinarian sticking a needle in your horse while you hold its lead rope, and a horse that spends days in a trailer where it can't hold its head up, gets bullied by other horses, may be seriously injured, has no food or water for a long time, stands around in a small pen with all the above problems, then is forcefully restrained by a stranger so it can have its brain turned to mush while it stands there in horror. Not the same thing at all. And there's no excuse for it.

[okggo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
Originally posted by Susan P:
We don't slaughter our dogs and cats for meat to send to Asian countries where they are eaten and Americans love their horses just as much.

That's enough of a basis not to slaughter horses.

According to the USDA, dogs and cats are companion animals, horses are livestock.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to stir the pot a little more regarding this statement- thousands of dogs and cats are euthanized on a daily basis. 14,000 dogs were euthanized in 2003 in Maryland alone. You can call it different things- putting the animal to sleep, euthanasia, slaughter, etc. but the outcome is the same- the animal is killed and the body is disposed of. As long as there is a surplus, this practice will continue- regardless of the type of animal. Deer hunts serve the same purpose. Shoot- the county just killed a whole flock of Canadian Geese that seasonally come visit a local pond b/c the neighborhood has been developed and the people were complaining about the poop.

I think this is just one of those issues you can go round and round on, spinning your wheels, proposing why it's wrong- but until society changes or somebody comes up with a practical solution, this is just an unfortunate circumstance that will continue to be a problem.

[Tom Stovall CJF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
Cartier,
Those videos were taken undercover in a Texas slaughterhouse.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whoa! The videos were ALLEGEDLY taken in a Texas slaughterhouse at some point in time. Given the "end justifies the means" history of the so- called "animal protection" groups like SHARK (HSUS, ALF, PETA, et al), I don't have a great deal of faith in their authenticity. In fact, I think it's highly probable they were staged in order to milk donations from a cash cow comprised of well meaning, horse loving, donors.

These outfits are on record as wanting to shut down Bel Tex and Dallas Crown, but instead of presenting an eye witness account and video taped "evidence" of the crime of animal abuse to the district attorneys of Tarrant and Kaufman Counties - an act that would have, in all probability, shut Bel Tex and Dallas Crown down - they chose to put their "evidence" on a website that solicits donations and claims to be a "non profit" entity.

Could their failure to present an allegedly eye witness account and videotaped "evidence" of the crime of animal abuse to the respective DAs be related to the fact that perjury is also a crime?

It's interesting to note that while the SHARK website claims they are a non-profit, it does not claim donations are tax exempt. Their lack of an IRS imprimatur suggests they are, in reality, a "for profit" entity preying on the unwary.

[Ridge Runner]

Staged? You've got to be kidding. Go back and look again. That's one heck of an expensive "set" they built if getting money from donors was their ultimate goal.

I think the videos are an authentic representation of mass production slaughter of horses.

[Karosel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
Staged? You've got to be kidding. Go back and look again. That's one heck of an expensive "set" they built if getting money from donors was their ultimate goal.

I think the videos are an authentic representation of mass production slaughter of horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are a pretty good representation of mass production slaughter of all live stock. Which is why I encourage people to buy their meat off local farmers. The slaughter house that we take our cattle to is small and takes the time to do the job right. I think large slaughter houses are disgusting. They process too many animals per day and thus the time is not taken to kill the animal correctly.

[Ridge Runner]

Well said Karosel....

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Staged? You've got to be kidding. Go back and look again. That's one heck of an expensive "set" they built if getting money from donors was their ultimate goal <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well this may inflame the PETA supporters on this board, but screw it, dear old Tom is right (yet again). These kinds of videos have been staged. A good resource on this is Patti Strand’s book, The Hijacking of the Humane Movement.” Strand is a Director of the American Kennel Club and one of the founders of the National Animal Interest Alliance (the NAIA). But there are many other sources. It is well documented that Animal Rights activists have staged (maybe exploited and enhanced would be better phraseology ) situations to generate public outrage, which translates directly into public support at the ballot and huge donations.
While I hate what I saw on the videos, I also abhor that situation being exploited.

Still, there simply has to be a more humane way to slaughter animals…



and… I am never ever ever selling one of our horses... ever... so I'd better get back to work.

[HeyYouNags]

Anyone who thinks the slaughterhouse footage is staged is truly grasping for a way to support his or her position. That viewpoint is at least as extreme as the position of the anti-slaughter posters who've been picked apart, line by line.

I didn't watch the SHARK video link, but have had my hands on some of the unedited tapes that have appeared elsewhere. I am quite comfortable saying that they weren't staged. [edited to add, no I did not do any of the filming!]

2 or 3 years ago, the Washington Post ran a story on cattle slaughterhouse practices, and it wasn't pretty. (Guess that was staged, too, huh?) Slaughterhouses don't just let people come in to watch, no surprise there. The story in the Post relied on whistleblowers, who are always few in number.