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Congress passes bill that allows Americas wild horses to go straight to slaughter.

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  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's sad, but not revolting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    What I find revolting is the reason all those euthanizations are necessary.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You all got your toes stepped on when he mentioned considering horses chattel and you closed your mind to his opinion at that point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Nope, I didn't feel my toes were stepped on at all, but his condescending ma'ams got real tired, real quick and for me counterbalanced any redeeming value his posts might have had. To say nothing of a seeming need to always have the last word. I just stopped reading. Problem solved.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What is relevent is should they be supported by tax money when we have children who are not? If the money gained from their sale is put to a good use and they are humanely treated for the better good of the whole system why not let them be recycled as feed for zoos? Why put them in a landfill with garbage. If we bury them do we damage the water or the land? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Is *supported by tax money* a valid measure? There are many, many things supported by tax money that I find an abomination, and many things not supported that I find a crime. I'm too old and cynical to think that money from the sale/slaughter will remotely be put to good use, or to believe that they will be humanely treated by and large. In a perfect world all creatures would always be humanely treated, and every conceivable useable bit of all things animate and inanimate would be recycled.

    Just giving BabyGoose something to come back to.
    Proud adopter of Win
    http://www.defhr.org
    Days End Farm Horse Rescue
    Protection for Horses - Education for People

    Comment


    • "Nope, I didn't feel my toes were stepped on at all, but his condescending ma'ams got real tired, real quick and for me counterbalanced any redeeming value his posts might have had. To say nothing of a seeming need to always have the last word. I just stopped reading. Problem solved."

      Precisely. Can we also vote off a certain someone who made a bunch of insensitive remarks on the thread about the three year old child who got killed in FL?
      \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns

      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BabyGoose:
        AARGG!! Mr. Stovall's tone became sarcastic in his posts AFTER he came under attack for posting intelligent, thought provoking posts. You all got your toes stepped on when he mentioned considering horses chattel and you closed your mind to his opinion at that point. His last post was very well put and educated and I'm sure you will all flip out at the mention of shooting the horses. Do I agree with just shooting them? NO! But I am not going to be rude to Mr. Stovall because he has a point that differs from mine. Are people mad because he can make so much sense while having such a polar view from the majority? He has directed his comments back to the subject at hand like we all should instead of attacking one another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
        Couldn't agree more with BabyGoose. As well as with all her/his other great posts on this thread.

        Why do all of you allow Tom Stovall to jerk your chains so much? He enjoys (I imagine) playing up the possibility that most of us are neurotic women who love our horses too much. He presses buttons with small, basically unimportant, details such as calling people ma'am and horses chattel. These points get everyone in a complete uproar. He then offers a perfectly acceptable explanation. Yes, I believe he was raised to call woman ma'am and to view horses as work tools. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn't mean he respects either any less, some people might say it means he respects both more.

        While this uproar ensues he stays on message and delivers his opinion clearly and concisely. And I might add persuasively.

        And basically ends up running circles around most of us.

        He presses my buttons too and I'm far too cowardly to try and go up against him. So don't think I don't admire those of you who make an attempt. But the very fact that he can press my buttons makes me laugh, and examine my thought processes more closely.

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While this uproar ensues he stays on message and delivers his opinion clearly and concisely. And I might add persuasively. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
          Hard to persuade anyone that one has alienated. Or who has stopped reading. Or all of the above. I am, however, fairly entertained by the discussion of widely divergent reactions to the CJF. It's sort of the comic relief counterpoint to the serious topic of the thread.
          Proud adopter of Win
          http://www.defhr.org
          Days End Farm Horse Rescue
          Protection for Horses - Education for People

          Comment


          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rescuemom: Hard to persuade anyone that one has alienated. Or who has stopped reading. Or all of the above. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good point. I forgot about that.
            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am, however, fairly entertained by the discussion of widely divergent reactions to the CJF. It's sort of the comic relief counterpoint to the serious topic of the thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
            It's probably a secret mass conspiracy of farriers spearheaded by Tom Stovall to divide and conquer COTH.

            Female Horse Lovers stand firm! No farrier may contaminate our love. Proudly embrace your ma'amness and state with pride that you are a horse owner.

            Comment


            • Forget "You had me at hello." It's "You lost me at Quote:"

              I'm with rescuemom, I didn't even try to read through all that stuff. All kidding aside, if you want to make a persuasive argument, you do have to consider your audience. If excessive ma'am-arries annoy your audience, your point will be lost.

              For the record, my fantastic Scottish farrier never calls me ma'am, and would be scratching his head at those posts as well. He's not real big on horse slaughter, either.

              Comment


              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Female Horse Lovers stand firm! No farrier may contaminate our love. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                Bea, you rock!

                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Proudly embrace your ma'amness <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                As a Chronologically Challenged female, I'm not sure I can go quite that far.
                Proud adopter of Win
                http://www.defhr.org
                Days End Farm Horse Rescue
                Protection for Horses - Education for People

                Comment


                • I read this...okay...I skimmed some parts

                  What my take is on the REAL issue? The real issue is, that all animals adapt to their environments given free rein to do so. The only animal that CHANGES the environment to suit his needs at the moment is man.

                  How sad that such an intelligent creature does more harm than good...

                  The answers are out there, if you throw away your opinions on WHO MATTERS MOST. IF given the opportunity to breed naturally...who will the mare choose? Use that knowledge and see what happens.

                  Who changes the environment the most? And dont be swayed by immediate interpretations...let's face it, forest fires MAN MADE can be devastating, but forest fires nature made set it up for renewal...

                  If we're so damn smart...why cant we adapt? If we're so damn smart, why cant we come up with a solution?

                  The answer is...we mimic what we know of natural law. But...it's...so hard...

                  Humans are like toddlers - "It's not fair!" "It's mine!" "I'll die before I change!"
                  "I want...I want..."

                  My take is, if you go by those principles you can start taking REAL action. Action based on HOW THINGS ARE, rather than HOW I WOULD LIKE THINGS TO BE. Would be really nice to have an entire WORLD (picture it from space) devoted to making each of us happy. An entire ecosystem devoted only to the whims of the human race.

                  Sorry, not going to happpen, we're not SMART enough to handle it.

                  My opinion, but sticking by it even if I didnt write it correctly.

                  Comment


                  • Okay, so I read what I posted, and if I had to get hardcore as to making decisions based on my beliefs it would be this
                    *it is WRONG WRONG WRONG to stick something in to a bill that might be a hot button for people's emotions in order to get it passed. Wimps.
                    *of course it's wrong to send them to slaughter - IF you truly have an overpopulation issue, then start treating them the same way some hunters-herd management people have - take away the bachelor herds and put THEM up for adoption. (not very popular btw...but are you a toddler?)

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Character:
                      *of course it's wrong to send them to slaughter - IF you truly have an overpopulation issue, then start treating them the same way some hunters-herd management people have - take away the bachelor herds and put THEM up for adoption. (not very popular btw...but are you a toddler?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      "Wrong" implies a moral imperative where none exists: Why exactly is it "wrong" to apply the laws of agricultural economics to one class of livestock and not another? After one gets past all the obfuscation, buzzwords, and vitriol attendant to the issue, it appears it has become an issue of personal prejudice, not morality.

                      The same folks who are unwilling to adopt the excess numbers of feral horses are also unwilling to allow them to be sold at public auction because the buyers might - and in all probability will - send many of them to slaughter for human consumption. Many of this same group are quite willing to euthanize the excess numbers but see humane slaughter as something evil. Why? Dead is dead.

                      Why are some folks so intent on imposing their particular brand of morality on other folks?
                      Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

                      Comment


                      • http://www.wildhorseandburro.blm.gov...A_Acreages.pdf

                        Herd Area Statistics
                        FY 04 Data


                        Herd Area Acres

                        BLM 39,753,268
                        Other 13,748,750
                        Total 53,502,018

                        Herd Management Area Acres

                        BLM 29,498,428
                        Other 5,051,142
                        Total 34,549,570

                        Populations

                        Horses 32,290
                        Burros 4,845
                        Total 37,135


                        Total AML

                        28,620

                        Comment


                        • It seems to me that if there are over 53.5 million acres and the BLM manages 34.5 million of them that they can squeeze in 37 thousand or so horses and burros since they manage to allow about 4 million privately owned cattle to graze on our public lands.

                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susan P:
                          http://www.wildhorseandburro.blm.gov...A_Acreages.pdf

                          _Herd Area Statistics_
                          _FY 04 Data_


                          Herd Area Acres

                          BLM 39,753,268
                          Other 13,748,750
                          Total 53,502,018

                          Herd Management Area Acres

                          BLM 29,498,428
                          Other 5,051,142
                          Total 34,549,570

                          Populations

                          Horses 32,290
                          Burros 4,845
                          Total 37,135


                          Total AML

                          28,620 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          Comment


                          • Are there any stats on how many of those particular acres it takes to support a wild horse? With or without the cattle?
                            Proud adopter of Win
                            http://www.defhr.org
                            Days End Farm Horse Rescue
                            Protection for Horses - Education for People

                            Comment


                            • My only thought about Tom's replies, which are well thought out -- obviously he is an educated person -- are that he says he uses horses for his job. I would suggest to him that the use of horses as a tool of the trade may still be viable, but the introduction of four wheelers, off road motorcycles, and computer generated technology are fast making the horse obsolete as a tool for cattle herding or fence riding or whatever he does. Not today, maybe, but I think he should face the fact that the romance of using a horse is part of the reason that they even exist at all as using animals today when in the majority of cases (not all, I am sure there are places where a horse can go that motorized vehicles can't!) machinery is much more efficient.

                              There's nothing wrong with wanting to do your job on a horse, but it is a 19th century notion that we need the help of the horse in the livestock industry. Therefore, the voices of the pleasure horse industry far outweigh those that still cry that horses are tools to get a job done.

                              If you shoe for the Amish, that's a different story and they are living as an anachronism because of religious beliefs. Horses are quite necessary in their lifestyle, but only by choice and have been superceded as farm machinery and transportation by the rest of the world.

                              As far as horse slaughter, I would like efforts to be made to make it as humane as possible, species specific, and every effort made to place these horses before killing them. However, I do agree that for the most part these horses are feral, and overcrowding can be just as inhumane. It would be nice if sterilization worked. I certainly support it.

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rescuemom:
                                Are there any stats on how many of those particular acres it takes to support a wild horse? With or without the cattle? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                The BLM rates the amount that one horse will eat as the same as what one cow/calf will eat. This is on an Animal Unit Month basis, meaning one horse will eat approximatley the same as a cow calf in a months time period. As far as acres to support that animal, it varies greatly. I don't work in Nevada where the majority of horses are so I am not sure what there carrying capacities are up there. Where I work it can vary from a high of 8 animals per section to as little as 2 animals per section.

                                Cattle and horses should both be considered livestock. Cattle can and do overgraze public land. In most cases however, cattle do not graze year round and have more flexibility to be removed if conditions are not suitable.

                                Also remember that horses don't just have completely free range. The public land is divided up into allotments that the ranchers lease and cattle graze on. The allotments are fenced and horses, being livestock, generally stay within those fences unless moved around. Any grazing animal confined to a fenced in area are going to overgraze if not managed correctly, even NATIVE bison. Most wildlife such as deer, elk, antelope, can go over or under fences and are not confined to an area.

                                Comment


                                • Most of the land that BLM manages is not suitable for nor open to horses.

                                  Some of those 4m cattle are only on the range a short time, when there is grass/water, then taken off. The horses are only in ranges that can carry them year round.
                                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by equestrielle:
                                    I would suggest to him that the use of horses as a tool of the trade may still be viable, but the introduction of four wheelers, off road motorcycles, and computer generated technology are fast making the horse obsolete as a tool for cattle herding or fence riding or whatever he does.
                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                    Horses are essential to cattle production in many parts of Texas because they are simply the most efficient tool for the job. Much of Texas is too thick, too swampy, too rocky, too rough, or too something for off-road vehicles. Rodeo also requires the use of horses for various tasks.
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                    As far as horse slaughter, I would like efforts to be made to make it as humane as possible, species specific, and every effort made to place these horses before killing them.
                                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                    Horse slaughter is already done in as humane a manner as possible, the only species involved is Equus caballus, and public auction would allow anyone who wants a feral horse to buy one.
                                    Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

                                    Comment


                                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
                                      Couldn't agree more with BabyGoose. As well as with all her/his other great posts on this thread.

                                      Why do all of you allow Tom Stovall to jerk your chains so much? He enjoys (I imagine) playing up the possibility that most of us are neurotic women who love our horses too much. He presses buttons with small, basically unimportant, details such as calling people ma'am and horses chattel. These points get everyone in a complete uproar. He then offers a perfectly acceptable explanation. Yes, I believe he was raised to call woman ma'am and to view horses as work tools. Nothing wrong with that. Doesn't mean he respects either any less, some people might say it means he respects both more.

                                      While this uproar ensues he stays on message and delivers his opinion clearly and concisely. And I might add persuasively.

                                      And basically ends up running circles around most of us.

                                      He presses my buttons too and I'm far too cowardly to try and go up against him. So don't think I don't admire those of you who make an attempt. But the very fact that he can press my buttons makes me laugh, and examine my thought processes more closely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      Agreed.

                                      Have we come so far that the use of yes ma'am and no ma'am puts us in a total snit?

                                      Comment


                                      • There is nothing humane about horse slaughter and the statistics refer to managed land. If we move anything off public land it should be privately owned cattle, not the publicly owned horses.

                                        I am suspect of anyone so eager to have American horses slaughtered to feed foreign countries.

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Susan P:
                                          There is nothing humane about horse slaughter...
                                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                          Have you, personally, ever witnessed the slaughter of horses with a captive bolt? If not, then you simply don't know what you're talking about, you're operating on the hysteria an prejudice that infests portions of horsedom. Spend a day on the kill floor at Bel-Tex, then get back to this forum with your personal reportage of what exactly you find to be inhumane in the slaughter process. Whatever else it is, it's not inhumane.
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                          If we move anything off public land it should be privately owned cattle, not the publicly owned horses.
                                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                          Close, but no cigar. Next time you access the stats, check out numbers of estimated feral horse AUMs in relation to the cattle/sheep AUMs.
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                          I am suspect of anyone so eager to have American horses slaughtered to feed foreign countries.
                                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                          Funny, I'm suspect of anyone so desperate to push an agenda and so out of touch with fiscal reality they'd rather see a horse's carcass go to waste instead of feeding a hungry human.
                                          Usual disclaimers, your mileage may vary, farriers lie.

                                          Comment

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