• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

trailering tragedy in MA

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TedShel:
    Magnum, still not convinced, show me the math behind it. That's what I've been asking for the entire time.

    [QUOTE] (And, I don't CARE who you voted for). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    ... Uh, hello? Please reread my posts. The point I have been trying to make this ENTIRE TIME is that the math and engineering tables would appear to SUPPORT the use of 1500's/ 150's and SUV's in hauling.

    Yet, in REALITY, it NEVER works that way.

    If it did, we wouldn't be reading all of these articles and incidences about horses being killed, drivers being killed, rollover wrecks, failure to BRAKE PROPERLY, etc.

    Things tend to go well with a 1500 or SUV if NTOHING UNPREDICTABLE HAPPENS. It's when, as I mentioned in a previous post, the horses SHIFT THEIR weight (read the INITIAL POST, here TED), something or some animal crosses your path on short notice, you blow a tire and it throws your truck around, or if you hit ice, potholes, etc.

    If you stick to your math tables, they will not entirely support REALITY. I know you military guys follow things by the book really well, this is one case where it's better NOT TO.

    It's a case of:

    In reality, it works. But, does it work in THEORY?"
    "If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."

    Comment


    • Personally, I look at the situation as I do for the programs my developers create... "As long as everything goes according to plan, it works, but what happens when the user does something unexpected?"

      Call it margin of safety: Best defined as the difference between the limits that your vehicle is capable of and what you expect to need or require in an emergency.
      Love my Northampton CANTER Cutie - Cessna

      Comment


      • Cessna:

        I am probably about the ONLY engineer who will LISTEN TO HUMAN LOGIC (and HORSE logic)! .... At least the only one in my office (and, from my experience, at most Trailer Manufacturer's, as well ..... groan).



        Any updates on the victims of this tragic event? Does anyone know them personally and are they doing OK?

        Magnum
        "If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."

        Comment


        • Hey Mag, as I've said all along one has to decide what level of safety they are comfortable with.

          A low end 150/SUV, with the wrong suspension, with the wrong rear, with the wrong engine, with an add on hitch, is the wrong vehicle to tow animals.

          However, a beefier 150/SUV can do it, safely. My tow vehicle, an Expedition has F250 brakes, F250 leaf springs, 5.4L Engine, 3.73 rear, etc etc. It's a truck. It was only 500lbs heavier then my F150 (which was almost a 250 as well).

          My Expedition is the same height as the pickups, so it may have a slightly higher Cg. The vehicle itself, imo, handles better when towing then when not, in fact, without the trailer, I don't like driving it.

          I've looked for specific stats on roll overs, and I've been unable to find them, just a bunch of mumbojumbo, they don't say what the conditions were, what the specs of the vehicles were, what the experience of the driver was.

          In this thread's case was the driver only 22? with a 17 yo passenger? What were they doing? Yacking on the cell phone, listening to music, yacking to each other, what???

          the stats you quote, or the ones I found on line, or what happened to these unfortunate young ladys, are lacking complete information.

          My bottom line is that of course it is safer to haul with a F450, but not everyone can aford that, the vehicle has to be multipurpose. I still believe that a properly outfitted 150/SUV can handle the load.

          And besides, if you aren't living on the edge, you are taking up too much room.

          Cheers!

          Comment


          • I think the age of the driver and passenger is not important information. She could have many years of driving a trailer, I'm sure more then me. I've only been driving a trailer for a year now (not counting when I was a teenager and drove my trainer's rig, with a 6 horse trailer!), but have been riding and around horses/trailers for 22 years. I just haven't been lucky enough to have a trailer until now. Please don't assume that just because someone is young that they're constantly on their cell phone, that's a really inappropriate comment. My trainer for my horse is a whopping 23 years old, drives a rig as well as my other 60 year old trainer, and can ride the hide off a dog!
            Grab mane and kick on!

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In this thread's case was the driver only 22? with a 17 yo passenger? What were they doing? Yacking on the cell phone, listening to music, yacking to each other, what??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


              yep...you are being a bit of an ass on this thread.....
              Tracie Richardson

              Comment


              • Magnum, are you basing your opinion about the F150s on the older body style or the newer ones? I believe the newer body style and models of the F150s are bigger than the older and personally, as an owner of a 6' bed, extended cab, F150 5.4L 4x2 3.55 gears - I found hauling with this truck much easier and comforting than the older F150s. I have even hauled with a Quad Cab Dodge 4.7 4x2 1500 and the truck has handled many things thrown at it while hauling and handles them quite well (though I do prefer my 5.4). Both trucks were pulling a 2 horse BP Steel trainer with a tack room.

                Thanks in advance! Im just trying to get a better grasp on this towing thing.
                ~~~~~~~~~

                Member of the ILMD[FN]HP Clique, The Florida Clique, OMGiH I loff my mares, and the Bareback Riders clique!

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In this thread's case was the driver only 22? with a 17 yo passenger? What were they doing? Yacking on the cell phone, listening to music, yacking to each other, what??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  The driver is an almost lifelong horse person and has had quite some time in towing. Assuming that their ages made them irresponsible and then making such remarks on a very public BB about them is lacking in judgement. Yes, I too am one of those people who gripe about irresponsible young people these days...but I don't automatically assume all of them are and IME most of the long time horse folks are rather mature for their ages. I am sure these girls are heartbroken and extremely upset over this. However, many people older have had the same accidents. Blaming the ages in terms of years of driving experience is one thing if you know the people personally and know they lack experience. Blaming the ages of the people by claiming they were acting as you stated is cruel and unjustified.
                  You jump in the saddle,
                  Hold onto the bridle!
                  Jump in the line!
                  ...Belefonte

                  Comment


                  • Now, I realize the information I am going to post comes from the website of a law firm that, obviously, wants to get clients. However, I think this quote is both interesting & relevant to the situation at hand:

                    From article “Rollover Lawsuits” at http://www.rolloverlawyer.com/

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Most rollovers occur when the driver is forced to take an emergency or evasive action after steering in one direction and then rapidly correcting in the opposite direction, such as a typical avoidance maneuver with a with a road hazard, a deer, a dog, pothole or another vehicle in their path. This evasive action often results in a rollover. Adding insult to injury, the driver is likely to be cited by the investigating officer for such violations as failure to control speed, overcorrection, and faulty evasive action and many others. The truth of the matter is that most rollovers occur because of the absence of a lower center of gravity and lack of a wider track width like in passenger vehicles. In most rollovers the fault can be squarely placed on the manufacturers for a negligent vehicle design and not on the unsuspecting drivers of these vehicles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Again, there is quite a little information on this site about rollover accidents (in general) with some scientific information about center of gravity, etc.:

                    Why do so many trucks & SUVs roll over: http://www.rolloverlawyer.com/why_they_roll/Default.htm

                    2005 SUV rollover test results:
                    http://www.rolloverlawyer.com/rollover_rating/index.htm

                    SUV rollover testing (includes formula relating to center of gravity):
                    http://www.rolloverlawyer.com/rollov...ting/index.htm

                    NHSTA Rollover & Roof Crush (another quite technical article):
                    http://www.rolloverlawyer.com/FMVSS/Default.htm

                    I think these articles would actually answer some of the questions that have been posed.

                    Now, TedShel, does the military still have a ground safety program to investigate (among other things) offbase traffic accidents? During the Vietnam era, in some areas of the country (the general area where you are stationed being one), the military paid close attention to traffic accidents. It might be that the military could provide you with some of the specific rollover information you would like to have - might not be classified, either.

                    Magnum, since you are an engineer, would you like to address my question to TedShel several pages back? How well do you think the RV guidelines for wheelbase vs. length of trailer apply to towing horse trailers with live cargo? Do you think applying 80% of the RV guideline would provide an additional (significant) margin to safety to horse trailer haulers? Or maybe not?

                    Comment


                    • I def agree with those statements that those things are what generally cause rollovers.

                      Back in mid-Feb, my step sister was driving her 97-98 Ford Explorer west on I-10 on her way to go see her boyfriend. She was talking to him on the phone, driving at least 70 (as that was the speed limit) and got off on the shoulder. She over corrected, flipped the truck all the way across the median (and for anyone whos been on I-10 esp near 75, thats a BIG median), into on coimng traffic lanes, when it oddly burst into flames. Tragically, my step sister died that day at only 21.

                      And thats not even while pulling a heavy load. And we all do it. (the general ALL). Talking on the phone while driving, messing with the radio, etc etc. And then add in a trailer and then living cargo? Makes you not want to trailer anywhere.
                      ~~~~~~~~~

                      Member of the ILMD[FN]HP Clique, The Florida Clique, OMGiH I loff my mares, and the Bareback Riders clique!

                      Comment


                      • Evalee - I'm no engineer, but here is my thoughts on your 80% rule. RV's tend to have steel floor systems, but the upper structure is most usually thin skinned aluminum over insulation. This provides for a lighter weight up high. Also, recreational trailers tend to sit pretty low to the ground in comparison to some horse trailers. That being said, one severe factor for RV's is sail size. Basically this is the amount of metal you are exposing to a crosswind. Remember, these units tend to have light upper structures and are long, so they make a nice sail.

                        In contrast, the horse trailer tends to be heavier all around. The axles of a horse trailer are usually beefier, the tires are always LT rated tires, there is a stout steel frame backed up by a heavy wood floor. And the upper structures tend to be steel or heavy aluminum that is MUCH thicker than that of an RV. So what you have is a shorter, but signifiantly heavier trailer.

                        The wheelbase numbers reflect the arm and moment in comparison to the trailer ball. When an rv trailer starts swaying or is being pushed sideways, you need a certain amount of vehicle in front of it to be able to counteract the movement. Now if you have a 25 foot RV trailer swaying back and forth behins a short wheelbase such as a Blazer, you literally have the tail wagging the dog. The same can be true for a F150 with a smaller, heavier horse trailer because it exerts MUCH more force than the RV trailer due to its increased weight.

                        What this all boils down to is that the wheelbase is only one factor in the equation. I would personally think that 70% is probably getting closer since the horse traler would be much heavier and carrying a live load that can easily shift at will as opposed to the stabilized weight of the RV trailer.
                        Love my Northampton CANTER Cutie - Cessna

                        Comment


                        • Here is something I encourage everyone to do no matter what trailer they have. Hitch up your truck/suv/car to your trailer (empty) and head to a LARGE open parking lot. Take a cone or a bale of hay and set it out in the open area. Now drive straight at it at about 10 MPH, and swerve at the last minute to avoid it. Try to get as close as you can with it centered on your vehicle or at least directly in front of the driver. Feel how the rig reacts. Now go back and try it at 20 mph and possibly 30 mph. See how it reacts without the addition of 800-1700 lbs for horses. See how YOU react also. You may find yourself in an uncomfortable situation, better to find that out in a parking lot with an empty load, than loaded in traffic. Practice if you are uncomfortable, and if you find/feel it unsafe, then make changes accordingly.

                          Next, go in a straight line at 25mph and stand on the brakes. Yes, do a full panic stop with the trailer. See how the rig reacts, do the trailer wheels lock? Does the trailer or tow vehicle dive to one side? These are important things to know. Again, better to find out in a controlled environment than in an emergency.

                          Lastly, repeat the above but use a marked place that you begin your stop. (The cone/hay bale works well here). Stand on the brakes when the front of the tow vehicle gets to the cone/bale. Then go back and measure the distance it took to stop. Now add 5 or 10mph and try it again. The results will not only astound you, but may save your life.

                          I have done this with all of my trailers and tow vehicles. The least you will come away with is the knowledge of how your rig will react in a panic situation. I have many friends that have done this and promptly went out and replaced their tow vehicles because they felt that it was inadequate to provide enough control/safety.

                          This is especially good for those of you towing with equalizer bars on your vehicle. You might be surprised at what happens when that trailer gives the tow vehicle a nice shove!

                          As a pilot, we practice emergency landings, engine failures, stalls, many things that can go wrong. This way if it actually happens to us, we know how our equipment will react and are better prepared. The same applies to trailering, and driving in general.

                          End of rant... thanks for listening.
                          Love my Northampton CANTER Cutie - Cessna

                          Comment


                          • My condolences to all involved.

                            We once had a pothole induced blow-out on our small windsurfer trailer, it was horrifying enough - I can't imagine how awful it would be with horses involved. I feel sick for them just reading this.

                            I don't think it is fair to make assumptions that if they had the right equipment, the accident could have been avoided. Our tiny trailer - so light we could pull it around by hand - "wagged the dog" and yanked our SUV all over the road (before breaking the hitch then eventually chains and rolling off into the ditch). Having experienced that, I am certain that this driver had no hope of correcting this accident, and I doubt even a larger rig would have prevented it totally. Our truck was large enough, our load was static, my S.O grew up farming and had hours behind the wheel pulling all sorts of things - and our windsurfers still "died".

                            Comment


                            • A 15-year-old girl in our town was killed when the person she was riding with pulled out in front of a horse trailer and truck. All three people in the car were killed, including a baby. The person in the horse trailer had minor injuries, she was wearing a seatbelt and had an airbag. I don't know what happened with the horses, it didn't say anything except that there were two.
                              SW

                              Comment


                              • My condolences to the girls.

                                Yes, this thread has moved from the (I assume) original intent, but if we can all learn something about safety in trailering our horses & ponies, and even ONE accident is avoided by this ... wow, it's worth it.

                                Thanks for weighting in, Cessna ... I think it's time a few people at the barn & I do some "drills."

                                -Flip

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X