trailering tragedy in MA

[pegasus209]

I haven't read through all of the informative posts but just wanted to say how sorry I am for the OP's friend.. such a terrible tragedy.

[Sandy M]

Thanks for your post, Magnum. My '88 Chevy 2500 recently had to have fairly $$$ work done in order to pass its (very tough) California smog test. It's now good to go for another 2 years. But the expense made me start thinking about a new (used) truck... So I go into dealerships saying I want a basic work truck F250/2500, and they show me stuff that is beyond my price range, then INSIST that I should buy even a NEW F-150/1500 (or used) because "with the correct towing package it will do the job." And BOY do they hate to have me keep saying NO-NO-NO-NO. HOw much weight are you hauling, it's made to do that, etc. AAAARGH!! However, I do stand my ground.

With reference to this tragic accident, before I had my own rig, I used to borrow vehicles belonging to my then-employer, a lawyer/hobby Arabian breeder. He had both Suburbans and 2500 trucks. Usually, I used the trucks, but once only one of the Suburbans was available. I did NOT like it as a tow vehicle - the center of balance or something was NOT right, even though it had load levers/sway bars. The trucks did a much better job.

[gabz]

DKL, there are 2 sites that I visit.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/index.php?s=
this one is an honest & safe to register site. Look for SPECS... they go back several years.

The other is Ford's product webpages...
http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/
I used to be able to "trick" it and go to prior years... but it doesn't seem to be working like it used to.
Mr. Truck is another excellent resource
http://www.mrtruck.net/


also - your owner's manual should tell you. If nothing else, you can measure from the center of your front wheel to the center of your back wheel to get the measurement.

The 7700 payload trucks were 99% of what Ford sold as 3/4 tons. There were many Ford 3/4 ton truck buyers who felt ripped off for a few years when Ford was marketing "Super Duty" and "Heavy Duty"...

I have also owned the 2000 and 2002 F150 extended cabs. Those had a 139" wheelbase. Longer than a regular cab. The 2004 and newer extended cabs have the 145" wb.

[Sandy M]

Just remember that when manufacturer's specs specify a towing capacity, they are talking about a stable, bottom heavy load, like a boat. A horse trailer is neither bottom heavy nor stable. Most dealer salesmen usually do not "get it" about the difference, and will tell you ANYTHING will pull a trailer, with no concern for you or your horse's safety. They just want to make the sale.

[Evalee Hunter]

Bumping this up in hopes that TedShel will see it & try to explain his posts to me. I hate admitting to being so dense, but I am really puzzled. (I'm not blonde, I'm gray, by the way.)

[TedShel]

Evalee Hunter: you're on my list (not high on it, but on it), but gotta make money to feed the ponies.

I guess I don't understand what you don't understand.

I think you are asking me why I think what I am doing is safe. IMO, my Expedition's specs are adequate to handle my trailer, based on gross combined curb weight, weight distro hitch capacity, braking ability, wheelbase vs. trailer length, driving/towing experience, family usage, and color.

It's all comes down to what level of safety you can afford.

[Sandbarhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MyArgie:
I was towing my horse along the same highway (different part of it) around the same time on Sunday night. I shudder to think, it could have been me and my horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was towing two horses through MA myself on Sun. and agree with the "there but for the grace of God" comment. Condolences to the driver and to the owners of the horses. This accident, will, at least, be a reminder as to how quickly something can go radically wrong, so some good will be served.

In terms of tow vehicles and trailers, count me in the "Own a GN and will never go back group" (Kingston, BTW). For me personally, I will also never again tow with anything less than a 2500 with a big enough engine to get it out of the way, towing gears to assist stopping and the full tow package. It is my only vehicle, but I am too chicken to take a chance with less.

The important thing to come from all of this, IMHO, is that no matter how safe a rig is, things can still go wrong and that sometimes it's more important to go slower and take longer to get home (Says the very tired individual who was really tempted to go faster in an effort to get the horses and me home to bed sooner on Sun.).

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MyArgie:

i agree to standing up to sales people!!! i went to a chevy dealership (litterally, for kicks) i'm 5'4", very small boned, i was 18 at the time. explained that i was graduating HS and my parents were and looking to buy a new truck to pull my horse trailer. the dealer knew NOTHING. he suggested a checy avalanch, when i told him i was under the impression that the bed was not long enough to tow a gooseneck trailer, he have me a nervous laugh and excused himself for a moment. he saw me and thought "stupid spoiled brat who has no idea what she is even doing", when i popped the bed length question, the look on his face was priceless. but also sickening about the way i was being treated... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OTOH, I walked into a GMC dealer's one evening, leaving my POS Datsun p/u running outside (because if I shut off the ignition it wouldn't start again). Said I wanted to buy either a p/u or SUV that had 4WD and could pull a trailer.
The salesman gave me some brochures with specs to take home, and the business card of one of the other salesmen who wasn't there at the time, because he didn't know anything about towing stuff, but his colleague did.

Smart move, that, because I've now bought 3 vehicles from that same dealership over the years...

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Barnfairy:

Aw, c'mon Ghazzu, don't be such a stick in the mud. Heck, it'll give us a chance to find out now just how much influence Ann has on the presidential-candidate-to-be. (Would she be a Hillary or a Laura?) I'd like to think that governors' wives love their horses too.

p.s. there's a lovely picture of Mrs. Romney on NEDA's homepage </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sorry, but I'm a native, and sick to death of outsiders who come in to play governor and then get bored with it partway through their terms.

Now, if Frank Sargeant was still governor...

[Evalee Hunter]

OK, I am so dense that, not only do I not understand TedShel's posts, I can't communicate to him what I want to know. So, can anyone else help us out, here?

TedShel - on page 3, near the end, I wrote a post in which I posed these questions:

First question:

[QUOTE] Is there a proportion or ratio between the distance from rear axle of tow vehicle to ball/distance from ball to rear axle of trailer? To me your first post suggests that there is some kind of proportion or ratio, but you don't tell us what it is. [QUOTE]

Second question:

[QUOTE]
[Is] your chart of "'Ball to rear axle' comment numbers" . . . saying that if your tow vehicle has a 110" wheelbase, the distance from the trailer ball to the trailer rear axle should be 18'4" out of a 20 foot long trailer? (I believe all of these assume a bumper pull trailer?)[QUOTE]

Third question:

[QUOTE]
Now, you have already said you drew these numbers from the RV world where "sail" is more a concern than weight. Are you saying that these numbers (whatever they are) will apply in the horse trailer world where you have a top heavy, high center of gravity, moving cargo?
[QUOTE]

Fourth question:

[QUOTE] Another guide that relates to the ball to axle distance is that the trailer's rear axle should be no more than twice the wheelbase of the vehicle. [QUOTE]

I feel if you read this out loud it doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that the distance from the trailer ball to the trailer axle should be no more than twice the wheelbase of the towing vehicle? Have I understood this one?

Final quote & question:

[QUOTE] my Expedition's specs are adequate to handle my trailer, based on gross combined curb weight, weight distro hitch capacity, braking ability, wheelbase vs. trailer length, driving/towing experience, family usage, and color. [QUOTE]

Having introduced these ratios/distances (which, I am embarassed to admit, I had never heard of), you seem to suggest you actually did not use them when deciding whether the Expedition would safely tow a particular 3 horse bumper pull trailer (whatever brand you own).

I hope by pulling my questions into one post, I will facilitate your reply!

[MyArgie]

Eventer55- I don't know much about trailering goosenecks, BUT i do know that a chevy 3500 is perfectly suitable for a GN 2 horse. I would highly reccomend you speak to a variety of trailer dealers (even if you are set on a kingston), tell them what type of truck you have, and ask what trailers/types they would reccomend. find out the manufacturers specs on towing weight. to figure out the weight of trailer you want, my rule is that i want to stay at least 2klbs under my limit, add up trailer weight, 2 horses + 1,000 (theoretical) water, hay, equipment....etc

as i said before, my chevy suburban says (i think..) 4000 dead weight, 10,000 distributed weight. when i called one place about having a weight distribution hitch put on, he was hesitant to put on one because he thought i would "be ok to get away with the dead weight, it would avoid the approx $500 for a w.d. hitch" i promptly found another trailer service and sales place. i'm not willing to chance my truck, trailer, life and most valuable MY HORSE'S LIFE for a few hundred bucks... (this place was in MA, if anyone in the area is curious, PM me i would be happy to pass on the name if it may help prevent accidents)

[magnum]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Huntertwo:
[QUOTE]Magnum, correct me if I'm wrong but a 1/2 ton has nothing to do with what a vehicle can PULL.
It is what the vehicle is capable of carrying.

My 1/2 ton, has a V-8 5.3L engine with the heavy duty tow package, beefed up suspension etc.
It is only myself and my saddle/tack.

Is this correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct that the ratings are for "payload" or "Carrying weight."

In my mind, the difference comes in EVERYTHING else that goes along with an HD Package. The axles are heavier ... the tranny is heavier ... the Diffy is heavier .... the BRAKES are heavier .... the FRAME is heavier -- mostly those improvements are designed to support that PAYLOAD.

... Last but not least ... a heavier TRUCK (shipping weight on the truck) in general (helps to counterbalance the rear load in a bad situation.

That "overall more SUBSTANTIAL TRUCK" translates into a rig that can:

1) be more likely to stop WITHOUT JACKKNIFING OR SKIDDING when those kids drive a bike out in front of you;
2) help you stop better when a motorcycle snaps in front of you in traffic at high speed, then slams on his brakes;
3) A deer SLAMS into your front end;
4) An 18 wheeler NEXT to you blows a tire -- as if a cannon just shot at you -- explodes in SMOKE and instantly careens out of control TOWARDS YOUR TRAILER (had this happen to me around the beltine of Indy once at 65 m.p.h. - Again, I insist if I had been driving a 1/2 THREE HORSE B.P. (death traps, IMHO), we'd ALL be dead. Instead I was able to swerve WITHIN CONTROL and not FLIP .... or ROLL .... and no one was anything except STRESSED when I stopped right away to check my TWO BIG BEEFY WB boys in back!) ...;
5) ..... etc.

You get the idea. The smaller trucks SIMPLY ARE NOT BEEFY ENOUGH TO HANDLE A HIGH CENTER OF GRAVITY LOAD shift, while the beefier trucks are MUCH MORE SUITED to handling unforeseen emergencies!

There is TOO MUCH WE CAN NOT CONTROL WHEN WE DRIVE OUR HORSES DOWN THE ROAD. GIVEN A CHOICE, I WILL CONTROL WHAT I CAN (my tools and equipment), and know I stand a better chance in an accident. What's the worst that can happen? I show up OVER-PREPARED to handle an emergency?

Finally, I've said this a hundred times (most of them here): Most horse trailers are DESIGNED under the old studies done in the 70's and 80's .... with diagrams from Oklahoma cowboys who took yardsticks to their cattle cutting QH's! Maybe these little "sardine can" trailers are what the Big 3 are looking at when they say their rigs will "do it!" Yes, a 1/2 ton will generally HANDLE a skimpy, 2 horse B.P. with that notorious little tack room under the MANGER and a 950 lb. horse on board ... but smaller trucks will not SAFELY handle much beyond that!

Also, FWIW -- It's only been in the last 8-10 years we've had trailers who come even CLOSE to handling our 16.3 hand WB's ... or 2 or 3 or 4 of them .....

Now, it is up to US to find SUITABLEy SIZED AND POWERED TRUCKS TO TOW THOSE SAME LARGER TRAILERS we were so google eyed looking at on the dealer's lot.

One final word: About Weight DIstr. hitches -- at that point, one is ATTEMPTING TO COMPENSATE FOR A WRONG DECISION THAT HAS ALREADY PAIRED A TRUCK AND TRAILER THAT RESULTED IN A MISMATCH ...

It's a TRUE statement, so even if you don't wish to believe it -- then for the sake of your horses who TRUST you to load them up and take them somewhere SAFELY -- then please, please PLEASE believe this!

Magnum

[Huntertwo]

Magnum, Thanks for all the information. There has just been so many trailering posts on different horse sites, it gets confusing.

Also, my truck has the extended cab. Does this help?

I do have a small 2 horse bumper pull and one 13.2 hand pony to pull.

Thanks again.

[TedShel]

First question:

[QUOTE] Is there a proportion or ratio between the distance from rear axle of tow vehicle to ball/distance from ball to rear axle of trailer? To me your first post suggests that there is some kind of proportion or ratio, but you don't tell us what it is. [QUOTE]
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There prob is, but I tried to get around figuring it out by posting the tables.
Second question:

[QUOTE]
[Is] your chart of "'Ball to rear axle' comment numbers" . . . saying that if your tow vehicle has a 110" wheelbase, the distance from the trailer ball to the trailer rear axle should be 18'4" out of a 20 foot long trailer? (I believe all of these assume a bumper pull trailer?)[QUOTE]
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Nope, it is just distance to the axle, doesn't say anything about overhang behind trailer axle. Yes, they assume BP trailers, GNs are totally different in construction.
Third question:

[QUOTE]
Now, you have already said you drew these numbers from the RV world where "sail" is more a concern than weight. Are you saying that these numbers (whatever they are) will apply in the horse trailer world where you have a top heavy, high center of gravity, moving cargo? &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Su re, why not, it's all we got. Apparently no Physic majors/teachers/hobbiest answered the call.
[QUOTE]

Fourth question:

[QUOTE] Another guide that relates to the ball to axle distance is that the trailer's rear axle should be no more than twice the wheelbase of the vehicle. [QUOTE]

I feel if you read this out loud it doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that the distance from the trailer ball to the trailer axle should be no more than twice the wheelbase of the towing vehicle? Have I understood this one? &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Bingo!

Final quote & question:

[QUOTE] my Expedition's specs are adequate to handle my trailer, based on gross combined curb weight, weight distro hitch capacity, braking ability, wheelbase vs. trailer length, driving/towing experience, family usage, and color. [QUOTE]

Having introduced these ratios/distances (which, I am embarassed to admit, I had never heard of), you seem to suggest you actually did not use them when deciding whether the Expedition would safely tow a particular 3 horse bumper pull trailer (whatever brand you own). &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Nope, I said "based on.....", one of which was wb vs. tl.

But, Apparently this is all hogwash because, nope never mind, y'all prob won't see the humor in what I was about to post, so like I said before, I accept my margin of safety for my horses. You do what you think is right and what you can afford. All of the capacities for your towing vehicle and how do the calculations are found in the owners manual, or at least Ford puts them in there. The tables posted were guidelines, I didn't do the math. A few that posted are doing far worse then what I'm doing, some are doing far better. Sorry I couldn't get my points across, or my that my points weren't accepted by all, just trying to put another point of view out there for those that are just weekend types, not everyday or many times a week haulers. Lots of considerations go into the decision of what trailer and tow vehicle you get, it all comes down to what you are comfortable doing, or getting away w/ (just trying to head off anticipated comments)

Cheers

[icicle333]

very sorry to find out that i know the girl whose horse was in the trailer...not sure if she or her family also owned the pony...

really really sad.

[Evalee Hunter]

Thank you very much for taking time to answer my questions.

Now back to my quote - the light has come on & I understand your tables which I am reprinting below my quote.

[/QUOTE] [Is] your chart of "'Ball to rear axle' comment numbers" . . . saying that if your tow vehicle has a 110" wheelbase, the distance from the trailer ball to the trailer rear axle should be 18'4" out of a 20 foot long trailer? (I believe all of these assume a bumper pull trailer?)
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Nope, it is just distance to the axle, doesn't say anything about overhang behind trailer axle. [QUOTE]

Now your tables:

Table 1:
Wheelbase Length Wheelbase Length
110" 20'..............150" 31'
114" 21'..............154" 32'
118" 22'..............158" 33'
122" 23'..............162" 34'
126" 24'..............166" 35'
130" 25'..............170" 36'
134" 26'..............174" 37'
138" 27'..............178" 38'
142" 28'..............182" 39'
146" 29'..............186" 40'


Table 2:
"Ball to rear axle" comment numbers

Wheelbase Length Wheelbase Length
110" 18'4"......... 150" 25'
114" 19'........... 154" 25'8"
118" 19'8"......... 158" 26'4"
122" 20'4"......... 162" 27'
126" 21'.......... 166" 27'8"
130" 21'8"......... 170" 28'4"
134" 22'4"......... 174" 29'
138" 23'........... 178" 29'8"
142" 23'8"......... 182" 30'4"
146" 24'4"......... 186" 31'

Look at the first line only of both tables. For a 110" wheelbase, according to your first table the maximum trailer length is 20 feet. Then the next table shows for a 110" wheelbase that the distance from trailer ball to trailer rear axle is 18'4". What I didn't realize is that the table is saying this is the MAXIMUM DISTANCE & that anything less is OK. I read the table to mean this was the ideal or correct distance. I also didn't figure out until a few minutes ago that 18'4" is almost exactly twice 110" (which is 9.16 feet) & you did say elsewhere that the maximum distance from trailer ball to trailer rear axle was twice the wheelbase of the tow vehicle. I didn't originally realize that the second table expresses that particular relationship - I should have translated inches into feet & I might have seen it sooner.

Anyway, I now have additional information & I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand it.

[JanWeber]

Doesn't it make sense to check with a local trailer dealer on the requirements for the tow vehicle? Before I bought my truck, I "test drove" it to the trailer dealer and asked HER how it would pull my trailer. A couple she vetoed (and told me in technical terms why they were an unsafe combo). I relied on her expertise rather than the truck dealer. BTW, I bought my last (and first) trailer from her 8 years ago. She wasn't trying to make a sale - just trying to make sure that we stayed safe.

[Tackpud]

So sorry for the families involved in this tragedy. May the horses rest in peace and may the driver not blame herself for a horrible accident that she could not prevent. May the children remember the wonderful rides on their horse and pony with love and laughter and smiles on their faces.

How about everyone taking the trailering issues to another thread and leaving this one for condolences and remembrances. The OP was about a horrible accident and tragic loss. Let's grieve for those involved.

[TedShel]

Does anyone have access to the accident report?

What did cause this tragedy?

[Evalee Hunter]

Based on news reports posted earlier, the accident was caused by hitting a pothole which caused the horses to shift suddenly to keep their balance.

OK, I took some real world measurements now that I understand what you are saying. Wheelbase of my truck = 156 inches. I'll round down a little & say I can tow a 32 ft. trailer which is equal to 384 inches. I like the 80% rule of thumb so the biggest horse trailer (in length) that I would tow would be 307 inches long (25 ft. 7 inches, approximately).

Our three horse is, like TedShel's, 20 ft total in length, with almost 4 ft. devoted to the tongue & the rest being trailer. The distance from ball to center of rear axle is appoximately 187 inches or a little over 15 ft. 6 inches.

On the 3 horse, the ball to trailer body length is 48 inches or 20% of the total length of the trailer. The ball to rear axle is 78% of the total length of the trailer, including tongue.

I also measured a 2 horse straight load which is sitting here (also bumper pull). It is 171 inches total length (ball to rear end of trailer) or 14 ft. 3 inches. The distance from ball to center of rear axle is 139 inches or about 11 ft. 7 inches.

On the 2 horse, the tongue length (ball to trailer body), is 38 inches or 38 inches/171 inches = 22% of the total length of the trailer. The distance from ball to rear axle is 81% of the trailer's total length.

Now I would like to measure an even smaller trailer & a bigger trailer & see if I see a trend. I would also like to measure a Brenderup. U-u-m, this is INTERESTING!