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trailering tragedy in MA

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    i agree with those who have emphasized the importance of wheel base. also important is the actual weight of the vehicle. The roll over specs will differ between a vehicle when it is being driven solo as opposed to when it has 5K lbs attached that can leap to the side. The balence of the trailer to vehicle is also influenced by the type of hitch. Many trucks come with a label on them which specifies #lbs towing dead weight, and #lbs towing with a weight distribution hitch. In my truck's case, the difference is more than 5klbs... I remember several years back, Ford issued a formal statement that the Explorer was not safe to tow using Firestone tires. Why this combination? I don't know, but apparently after years of the vehicle being sold, it was found this this combination is not safe. Seeing as there are so many Explorers, there is no way that EVERY owner could have possible heard the update. Please please please- drive carefully and be as up to date as possible on your truck and trailer's safety information.

    I was towing my horse along the same highway (different part of it) around the same time on Sunday night. I shudder to think, it could have been me and my horse.

    Comment


    • #42
      Just as a reference: Ford Explorer is the smallest, Expedition is mid-size, the Excursion is the largest.

      I'm so sorry for the loss of these horses and the grief the owners are suffering.

      The suspension and how the tow vehicle can handle "sway and torgue are critical along with wheelbase length. Extended cab trucks, with full size bed, will have the greatest towing capacity. A 4-door truck which will usually have the shorter bed, but due to the 4 doors, more base weight - which can be a good or bad thing.

      My 2004 F150, extended cab has a 145" wheelbase. It's tow capacity, as I have it set up, is 9300 pounds. Since horses move around and are top heavy--- some suggest applying an "80% rule"... that is, never haul more than 80% of your rating when hauling horses. I have a 3H steel GN. I haul 1 horse and camping stuff.

      Potholes are wicked things - that kind of situation could have thrown a 3/4 ton (250/2500) around or caused a blowout on any of the tires - truck or trailer with horrible results.

      One of the problems with the Jeeps (and I'm sorry I don't know which exact model/year) is that they did NOT have a full-body frame. Some models did.
      Again, my condolences.
      (Edited to change wheelbase from 139 to 145" after I rechecked my specs)

      Comment


      • #43
        TedShel - while I do not pretend to be an expert on towing, I did a lot of research before I bought a trailer (some years back). This research involved reading every trailer towing article I could find in horse magazines, as well as going to the library & reading articles in magazines devoted to towing in general (boats, cars, etc.). The horse magazine articles I read recommended 120 inches of wheelbase as the minimum for towing a two horse. Others may well find different recommendations &, I admit, I did not ask the magazines where they got their info.

        Anyway, I would appreciate some examples that use numbers to illustrate your points about the ratio between the length of the tongue of the trailer & position of axles, etc.

        I know Tom King has conducted some personal research which suggests that weight distributing hitches INCREASE the braking distance if you have antilock brakes. Interesting research & I wish some truck manufacturers would conduct some "real" research on the topic but if they are doing so, they are not telling me about it.

        Anyway, any & all info is appreciated. Sources of said info (references) are also appreciated.

        I do wish the Brenderup crowd would read this thread & take it to heart - the laws of physics DO apply to all of us.

        Comment


        • #44
          VERY SORRY to hear about this tragedy. How awful. Relieved to hear that the horses did not suffer.

          Evalee and Ted -- good comments on the wheel base.

          IMHO, ALL horseowners need to stand up to SALESSTAFF who insist that small to medium sized SUV's and 1/2 tons are UTTERLY safe for pulling (unconditionally SAFE and "designed to do this!" they say!).

          However, the problem with calculating WEIGHT alone is a towing factor is twofold:

          1: HORSES ARE TOP HEAVY;
          2: HORSES ARE LIVE CARGO AND SHIFT THEIR WEIGHT.

          That weight shift alone can and DOES pull an SUV and most half tons OFF the road entirely, and/or flip the towing vehicle.

          If these sales folks had to defend themselves in COURT .... and/or if the Big 3 who claim that their half tons are SAFE to pull unconditionally ever had to defend themselves in a Product Safety Lawsuit .... then we would not be reading about cases like these.

          The laws of PHYSICS, ENGINEERING AND HORSES do not always add up (for one, horses do NOT study engineering books!)

          One other problem that we, as a horse community in general needs to BE HONEST with ourselves ABOUT:

          We have to ADMIT it is not really feasible to cross a more gas efficient commuter truck with a hauling rig!

          As long as we scale back to have one vehicle be BOTH, then the Big 3 will eagerly continue to take OUR money and let us attach our horses to their vehicles, and we will CONTINUE to see these upsetting reports of tragic deaths.

          IMHO, as an ENGINEER, I will stand by my convictions that these vehicles are not up to this task when variables such as live MOVING cargo, weather, road conditions, etc. come in to play. There are too many stories out there like this one, and the price we are paying as horse owners is just heartwrenching. I could not say this if I didn't care (or if I was selling you an insufficient rig just to get your money).

          BTW -- Could someone earmark this thread when the 100th post about "will a half ton pull my rig safely? question inevitably pops up in a few weeks?

          Again, sincerely sorry to hear about the driver and her horses. If I were that driver, I'd be contacting a lawyer.

          Magnum
          "If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."

          Comment


          • #45
            I trip up and back down 128 from the South Shore to Rte. 2 every week for my lesson.(did it today) I have been doing this for almost 4 years now...I am a middle aged adult, hauling for 12 years....and all I can tell you is I have to be on "high alert" at all times. I have an F250 with a Kingston Trailer. Between the knuckleheads who cut me off, the road conditions, the people on their cell phones slamming on breaks and the trucks whizzing by me....I am lucky I have not been in an accident.
            whoever posted "there but for the grace of god go I" was right. You just don't know.
            I hope the young ladies get the support they need in this time of tragedy.
            Tracie Richardson

            Comment


            • #46
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The trailer was a kingston two horse, if anyone was wondering. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


              Doublete, do you know if the Kingston had a dressing room?? I have always had Kingston tag a longs and love them and find them to be so stable on the road and super for hauling. Just curious if it was longer than mine without the dressing room.
              http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill

              Comment


              • #47
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I plan (once I get more details that I am sure of) to write to the MA's departments of transportation as well as the governor (ye old Mitt...) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Mr. Romney's wife rides, too (she was the focus of an article in the Globe a while back). Maybe that angle would have some teeth.[/QUOTE]

                Doubt it wll have any effect whatsoever.
                Mitt the Git is too busy running for the Republican nomination for President to concern himself with such prosaic matters as the roadways of the Commonwealth.
                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                Comment


                • #48
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would appreciate some examples that use numbers to illustrate your points about the ratio between the length of the tongue of the trailer & position of axles, etc.
                  </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Not sure I understand the question.

                  What we need is some smart college kid that is studying physics/statics/dynamics/vectors and all that other stuff that was too many beers ago for me to remember how to do the hard math.

                  All I know is that I tow a 3H DR BP with an Expedition w/ tow package and weight distro hitch w/o a problem for several years now (knock on wood). Did the math, weighed the truck (full of fluids), weighed the trailer empty, know the weight of my ponies, saddles, water, and other junque/tack, and I'm fine with it.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by magnum:
                    VERY SORRY to hear about this tragedy. How awful. Relieved to hear that the horses did not suffer.

                    Evalee and Ted -- good comments on the wheel base.

                    IMHO, ALL horseowners need to stand up to SALESSTAFF who insist that small to medium sized SUV's and 1/2 tons are UTTERLY safe for pulling (unconditionally SAFE and "designed to do this!" they say!).



                    Magnum </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Magnum, correct me if I'm wrong but a 1/2 ton has nothing to do with what a vehicle can PULL.
                    It is what the vehicle is capable of carrying.

                    My 1/2 ton, has a V-8 5.3L engine with the heavy duty tow package, beefed up suspension etc.
                    It is only myself and my saddle/tack.

                    Is this correct?
                    MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
                    http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

                    Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      tall oaks- yes it had a dressing room.

                      I'm not sure I understand all of the discussion, but I will sit down and *try* to understand. But basically, I think the gist is my next trailer and new truck will be a gooseneck with a bigger truck than I have now (although my rig now is very safe, and I never feel like it is even swaying behind me).
                      Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AdultMedals:
                        I'll make sure to keep everyone updated on how the owners are doing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Please do! and please let them know we're thinking of them
                        *Faune D'Helby*

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gabz:
                          My 2004 F150, extended cab has a 145" wheelbase. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          Gabz how do you find out the wheelbase specs on your F150? I bought a used 2003 F150 7700 which I think means heavy duty suspension, but I am not 100% sure and would like to know how to find out more. Thank you in advance.

                          My heart goes out to these poor girls....
                          ______________________________
                          The Communication Alliance to Network Thoroughbred Ex-Racehorses (CANTER) provides retiring racehorses with opportunities for new careers after the finish line. http://www.canterusa.org/newengland/

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            TedShel -

                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The length of the trailer vs. the wheelbase of the vehicle is a better comparison of whether or not your choice of tow vehicle is a good one.

                            The longer the trailer, the more leverage it can apply to the tow vehicle and create sway, side to side movement. The amount of sway that can be applied can also be mitigated by the distance between the rear axle of the vehicle and the ball, and the ball to the rear axle of the trailer.

                            So, in the RV world, where sail area is more of a problem then weight, the guideline is that a vehicle with a wheelbase of 110 inches can tow a 20 foot trailer. Each additional 4 inches will get you 1 more foot of trailer.

                            Another guide that relates to the ball to axle distance is that the trailer's rear axle should be no more than twice the wheelbase of the vehicle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            OK, I bolded two parts of the quote. Neither part is clear to me. What kind of relationship between the ball to rear axle of tow vehicle/ball to rear axle of trailer is ideal? What kind of proportion? Give me a real world example, such as the numbers on your particular tow vehicle & trailer & explain why this ratio works well.

                            On to the 2nd bolded quote: "the trailer's rear axle should be no more than twice the wheelbase of the vehicle"?? You lost me totally. I have no idea what you are saying or what ratio or proportion you are saying there should be. Again, ideals vs. real world examples would be a big help.

                            I don't think either part that I bolded represents a clear or clearly expressed thought.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              if the distance between the towing rear axle and ball is short it gives the trailer tung [weight and side to side pressure] not much leverage to lift and push sideways the front of the towing truck. a weight distributing hitch reduces the lifting action keeping more braking and steering traction in front.
                              more hay, less grain

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Wheel base to trailer length:

                                Wheelbase Length Wheelbase Length
                                110" 20' 150" 31'
                                114" 21' 154" 32'
                                118" 22' 158" 33'
                                122" 23' 162" 34'
                                126" 24' 166" 35'
                                130" 25' 170" 36'
                                134" 26' 174" 37'
                                138" 27' 178" 38'
                                142" 28' 182" 39'
                                146" 29' 186" 40'

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TedShel:
                                  Wheel base to trailer length:

                                  Wheelbase Length Wheelbase Length
                                  110" 20'..............150" 31'
                                  114" 21'..............154" 32'
                                  118" 22'..............158" 33'
                                  122" 23'..............162" 34'
                                  126" 24'..............166" 35'
                                  130" 25'..............170" 36'
                                  134" 26'..............174" 37'
                                  138" 27'..............178" 38'
                                  142" 28'..............182" 39'
                                  146" 29'..............186" 40'


                                  "Ball to rear axle" comment numbers

                                  Wheelbase Length Wheelbase Length
                                  110" 18'4"......... 150" 25'
                                  114" 19'........... 154" 25'8"
                                  118" 19'8"......... 158" 26'4"
                                  122" 20'4"......... 162" 27'
                                  126" 21'.......... 166" 27'8"
                                  130" 21'8"......... 170" 28'4"
                                  134" 22'4"......... 174" 29'
                                  138" 23'........... 178" 29'8"
                                  142" 23'8"......... 182" 30'4"
                                  146" 24'4"......... 186" 31'


                                  </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    OK, I appreciate the answers but I am still somewhat dim.

                                    armandh - what you are saying is basically that a gooseneck works better because the horizontal distance from the tow vehicle rear axle to the ball of the trailer is short. Am I correct? You are also saying that a weight distributing hitch attempts to compensate for the larger distance between the rear axle/ball by (in part) damping the up/down motion of the trailer tongue on the ball. I think I understand this part.

                                    TedShel - I understood the relationship you gave of tow vehicle wheelbase to trailer length. I did NOT bold the part about "in the RV world . . . the guideline is that a vehicle with a 110 inch wheelbase can tow a 20 foot trailer. . . ."

                                    What I AM asking about is: WHAT IS THE IDEAL DISTANCE FROM THE TRAILER BALL TO THE REAR AXLE OF THE TRAILER?? Is there a proportion or ratio between the distance from rear axle of tow vehicle to ball/distance from ball to rear axle of trailer? To me your first post suggests that there is some kind of proportion or ratio, but you don't tell us what it is.

                                    We do know from your posts that you haul a relatively large BUMPER PULL trailer with a relatively small tow vehicle. What makes this work? What are the two distances mentioned above on your real world example? (How far from your trailer ball to your tow vehicle's rear axle? How far from your trailer ball to your trailer's rear axle?)

                                    I am looking at your chart of "'Ball to rear axle' comment numbers" & I don't understand this chart at all (which you must know from my previous questions). Are you saying that if your tow vehicle has a 110" wheelbase, the distance from the trailer ball to the trailer rear axle should be 18'4" out of a 20 foot long trailer? (I believe all of these assume a bumper pull trailer?)

                                    Now, you have already said you drew these numbers from the RV world where "sail" is more a concern than weight. Are you saying that these numbers (whatever they are) will apply in the horse trailer world where you have a top heavy, high center of gravity, moving cargo?

                                    I really need more of an explanation in addition to a chart.

                                    Thank you for your attempts to explain. Please keep trying.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #58
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Mr. Romney's wife rides, too (she was the focus of an article in the Globe a while back). Maybe that angle would have some teeth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      Doubt it wll have any effect whatsoever.
                                      Mitt the Git is too busy running for the Republican nomination for President to concern himself with such prosaic matters as the roadways of the Commonwealth.[/quote]

                                      i know, but hey if enough people will write and some media attention can be directed in that direction it might help a little... small chance i know, but it will make ME feel better to know i did not just sit back and say nothing after this tragedy

                                      i agree to standing up to sales people!!! i went to a chevy dealership (litterally, for kicks) i'm 5'4", very small boned, i was 18 at the time. explained that i was graduating HS and my parents were and looking to buy a new truck to pull my horse trailer. the dealer knew NOTHING. he suggested a checy avalanch, when i told him i was under the impression that the bed was not long enough to tow a gooseneck trailer, he have me a nervous laugh and excused himself for a moment. he saw me and thought "stupid spoiled brat who has no idea what she is even doing", when i popped the bed length question, the look on his face was priceless. but also sickening about the way i was being treated...

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        I clicked on this post not for morbid curiosity, but for solid information on safety, which is what comes out of something like this.

                                        I am thinking of getting a Kingston 2 horse gooseneck next Spring, I drive a 1/2 ton Chevy 350, I use level bars chains etc. What is the consensus on the 2 horse gooseneck?

                                        Not meaning to hijack this thread, I think all this information can save lives.

                                        All good thoughts to the driver. I wish we never had threads like this!

                                        P.S. I too drive like an old lady. . . hey, I am an old lady!
                                        RIP Kelly 1977-2007 "Wither thou goest, so shall I"

                                        "To tilt when you should withdraw is Knightly too."

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I plan (once I get more details that I am sure of) to write to the MA's departments of transportation as well as the governor (ye old Mitt...) </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Mr. Romney's wife rides, too (she was the focus of an article in the Globe a while back). Maybe that angle would have some teeth </div></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Doubt it wll have any effect whatsoever.
                                          Mitt the Git is too busy running for the Republican nomination for President to concern himself with such prosaic matters as the roadways of the Commonwealth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                          Aw, c'mon Ghazzu, don't be such a stick in the mud. Heck, it'll give us a chance to find out now just how much influence Ann has on the presidential-candidate-to-be. (Would she be a Hillary or a Laura?) I'd like to think that governors' wives love their horses too.

                                          p.s. there's a lovely picture of Mrs. Romney on NEDA's homepage

                                          Comment

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