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More troubles in Canada horse slaughter plant land

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  • OGP:

    You ARE going in circles, because you're being knotheaded about this. Read Post#1667 above. This is the exact situation. There is no "homeless horse" population in existence. The slaughter market merely creates a place to dump them for dollars when one hasn't the incentive to do better.

    I don't know what answer you're looking for, but it's pretty apparent by now that you won't be getting it from us.

    Comment


    • Wasn't ivermectin on the EU verboten list?

      Cattle can do well with a minimum of drugs because they only live for a couple of years before being processed. Same for pigs, chickens, sheep, etc. Easy to regulate what they are eating short term, not so easy with a potential drug buildup over 15-20 years.

      I find it interesting that as far as I know, ALL of the horse slaughterhouses are owned and run by the Europeans who ship the meat out. They don't seem to be at all interested in dealing with any middlemen.

      I also don't believe that for the most part they have these huge slaughterhouses in Europe, so the fact that they can buy thousands of horses cheaply, slaughter them fast and dirty, and ship them out frozen (there's something about frozen that may make a difference in the rules coming into Europe) seems to be a key attraction. Also, when they are done they can just pack their bags and leave if they want.

      I truthfully don't feel that they would be interested in buying from a small slaughterhouse that was owned and operated by someone else.

      Comment


      • Right - libgrrl (so glad I'm finally on my computer so that autocorrect doesn't keep trying to fix that )

        Those are also ex-racers.

        A large number of the horses though, are also haflingers, Belgians and Percherons. When I have gone to the horse sales, it's often the drafties that make up the bulk of the equines at the sale.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
          Okay - you're like 300% missing my point. In fact, you're so far from accurate you can't even see it with binoculars.

          I'm not saying people can't treat their horses. I'm not saying people shouldn't. Inject the royal living crap out of your horses and bute them up (not that that's good for THEM, but hey, your horse, your ulcers).

          Here's what I'm asking:

          Question: IF a young horse has a medical emergency that requires bute and/or nitrofurazone...and gets treated with such...are these really the same people that would be sending them to slaughter?

          If that's NOT the case, then are we really talking about a small subset of ex-racehorses?

          This is an inconsistency I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

          I'm not advocating for a position other than making sure we fully understand the situation so that we don't have unintended consequences. I don't know how often I need to repeat myself before you understand what I TRULY care about.
          I guess I don't get what you think the solution to the drug issue is.
          As I see it there are 3 options:

          -Status quo- slaughter them regardless of their exposure to banned substances and hope SOMEONE will buy the meat.
          -Create passports so those horses who do get banned meds do not enter the for human consumption pipeline
          -Ban use of all banned substances

          Because whether you keep the larger slaughter plants as they are [with or without some new US plants added in], or go to a system of small, local plants, the EU and other agencies are not going to buy the meat for human consumption... and most Zoos and other buyers are also not interested.

          ETA that horse who was injected may not be sold to slaughter by the person who injected it. It might be the next owner or the next. Horses get sold all the time, and what the next buyer does with that animal when they are done with it, or broke it is a crapshoot... so again, trace-ability is key [re 'banned' or 'needs x months to clear' substances]
          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

          Comment


          • You ARE going in circles, because you're being knotheaded about this. Read Post#1667 above. This is the exact situation. There is no "homeless horse" population in existence. The slaughter market merely creates a place to dump them for dollars when one hasn't the incentive to do better.

            I don't know what answer you're looking for, but it's pretty apparent by now that you won't be getting it from us.
            No - there are inconsistencies that bother me.

            If they don't bother you, then YOU stop talking about it. Let those who are interested in actually discussing the inconsistencies discuss the inconsistencies.

            I've gotten YOUR message about it. I do not believe you.

            That's okay - you don't believe me either. So...again - let those of us who don't believe you talk about it. Go...knit or something.

            Comment


            • I guess I don't get what you think the solution to the drug issue is.
              As I see it there are 3 options:

              -Status quo- slaughter them regardless of their exposure to banned substances and hope SOMEONE will buy the meat.
              -Create passports so those horses who do get banned meds do not enter the for human consumption pipeline
              -Ban use of all banned substances
              I am NOT trying to solve it at the moment.

              I'm trying to understand who we are talking about. What horses we are talking about.

              Once more - are we really talking about ex-racehorses? Both Standardbred and Thoroughbred?
              Last edited by OneGrayPony; Jun. 11, 2013, 11:32 AM. Reason: clarity

              Comment


              • Cattle can do well with a minimum of drugs because they only live for a couple of years before being processed. Same for pigs, chickens, sheep, etc. Easy to regulate what they are eating short term, not so easy with a potential drug buildup over 15-20 years.
                Right - but once again, it's not the 15-20 year old horse that goes for slaughter, from what I have been told repeatedly.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                  MistyBlue, that's part of what I'm completely confused by.

                  The only horses that I can think of that would meet the KB's requirements (young, healthy weight, etc.) AND have drugs in their systems are...ex-racehorses.

                  So...is that what we're really talking about?
                  Are you aware of what is and is not on the EUs list of banned substances and those on the lists of drugs that need clearance times?

                  It's not just bute and nitrofurazone. And while the Canadians are in the process of developing a test that could be conducted on live horses to detect too much bute [or so Fairfax claims]... that test does not address the whole host of other, commonly used drugs that do not have a live animal test that can detect those drugs prior to processing.

                  The average age of a slaughter horse is 6... that means some are younger and some are older obviously. A horse of up to 8, has had wormer, has had ulcerguard perhaps, has had bute potentially... these wonderful animals are ALWAYS trying to kill themselves.
                  And medicating them when they do attempt to kill themselves but fail is common and often done without the Vet overseeing ever administration or application.

                  It is not just Ex race horses. I would suggest that OGP you might be in the minority of those horse owners who do not have their own horsey medicine cabinet that is visited often. And I could be wrong. But the assumption that most people do not medicate on their own more than you do, isn't an obviously sure one to me.
                  Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                  http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                  Comment


                  • But it can be, and it can be a 10-13 year old horse that has a drug buildup too.

                    Some worker was quoted years ago that the easiest horses to slaughter were the old family pets who trusted people. Those are the ones that probably have had forbidden substances at some point.

                    Unless you turn around and demand a birth to grave medication history (like in Europe) there's always that maybe factor. I've heard there are ranchers in the west who toss a bunch of mares out with a couple of stallions and in a few years round everyone up, keep a few, and then toss the rest in the truck. There's your unmedicated meat. Add in some of the color breeders who cull their solid colored colts and there's another source. Ex-PMU breeders.

                    And strangely, I don't have as much problem with that as I do with Susie's old pony going down the line.

                    BTW, the everpresent bute in racehorses evidently hasn't slowed down their slaughter, either.

                    Comment


                    • Angela, I'm aware of the list. We went over it...I think back around page 36, 52 and maybe somewhere around 60. I just brought up the two most common drugs, and the ones that people freak out about being the most dangerous.

                      So, the average age is around 6.

                      I think I see the disconnect, but it's a little fuzzy...

                      You are assuming that someone's beloved horse, who they have treated very well and medicated with a variety of drugs, gets sold to someone and that someone *poof* sends it off to slaughter and that this is every horse in the pipeline's story.

                      Is that correct?

                      Comment


                      • betonbill, I think that's what I'm trying to distinguish.

                        What percentage of these are the rancher's culls (as you've described), what percentage are ex-racers and what percentage are the little suzie's retired horses?

                        Again - I'm not trying to leap to conclusions, I'm just trying to figure out what we're talking about.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                          So who will buy these horses? Since I'm fairly sure none of these people are going to suddenly clean up their acts.
                          If a horse goes to an auction and no one buys it, the owner that brought it still owns it. just because you have something for sale doesn't mean you get to dust off your hands and wash away your responsibility for that animal until it in fact IS sold.

                          That is what we're saying.

                          Just cause you want to sell it and take it to an auction or put it on Craigslist or whatever other avenues you choose to use to sell it... until it sells it is still your responsibility.

                          Furthermore, policing the slaughter industry per the very available history of the US plants has proven expensive [Fed agents to inspect, $$$... state agents to police $$$... etc]... and we also have the need to police how horse owners care for their horses [and insure that they do so within the requirements of the law]... removing one of those burdens [slaughter, or horse ownership in the US, you pick] means there are more resources to police that one that is left.

                          Just sayin'
                          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                          Comment


                          • If a horse goes to an auction and no one buys it, the owner that brought it still owns it. just because you have something for sale doesn't mean you get to dust off your hands and wash away your responsibility for that animal until it in fact IS sold.
                            Right - I wasn't saying they'd have no buyers, what I was asking was WHO were the buyers going to be?

                            Although as we've seen, horses get abandoned at auctions frequently.

                            Furthermore, policing the slaughter industry per the very available history of the US plants has proven expensive [Fed agents to inspect, $$$... state agents to police $$$... etc]... and we also have the need to police how horse owners care for their horses [and insure that they do so within the requirements of the law]... removing one of those burdens [slaughter, or horse ownership in the US, you pick] means there are more resources to police that one that is left.
                            Won't this also be true of policing the people who have the horses now? We already know ACs are frequently underfunded and undertrained.



                            Can someone please answer my question of the percentages of the streams of horses?

                            Estimated is fine.
                            Last edited by OneGrayPony; Jun. 11, 2013, 11:56 AM. Reason: detail. and adding the word please because my mama always taught me to be polite.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                              Angela, I'm aware of the list. We went over it...I think back around page 36, 52 and maybe somewhere around 60. I just brought up the two most common drugs, and the ones that people freak out about being the most dangerous.

                              So, the average age is around 6.

                              I think I see the disconnect, but it's a little fuzzy...

                              You are assuming that someone's beloved horse, who they have treated very well and medicated with a variety of drugs, gets sold to someone and that someone *poof* sends it off to slaughter and that this is every horse in the pipeline's story.

                              Is that correct?
                              No.

                              I've worked in the breeding industry for two 'disciplines' or areas for some large and less large [backyard] breeders as well as various and sundry boarding facilities [large and commercial and small and backyard] in various English disciplines.

                              They all used some or most of those drugs on that list even with their young horses. Wait, I'll correct that statement... they had available in the barns all of those drugs or most of them for the grooms/owners to use often times at our own discretion. Sometimes the Owner/Manager was aware of the use and sometimes we just grabbed what we needed and took care of it.

                              Like you who doesn't use meds at all, I am basing how the equine industry as a whole functions regarding medications on my experience.
                              My experience appears to be almost the polar opposite of yours regarding the use of many of those banned substances.
                              While I understand there may be small pockets of horses who come from a ranch that free ranges their horses and never medicates, I'm going with 'that is probably a minority'.

                              Can I give you the exact numbers that come from this, that, and the other groups? No, no one can.

                              Even if you look at the shipping documents via FOIA, all you get is a guess at breed, age, color, sex, and... I forget... filled out by the shipper with no substantiating documentation.
                              aside: LOL AC4H claimed that Brian Moore in fact does ship greys and marks them down as appys... and that the minis and ponies he ships he puts on those documents as horses.
                              While I am fairly certain that those who observe the unloading at the plants are well versed in what they do/do not accept [greys, minis, ponies] sufficient to tell the difference and turn away what they do not want... their ability to ascertain that 'this horse had drugs as some point in his life and this one didn't' isn't as obvious.

                              But there is no way to look at documented information on what number of the whole has or has not had meds based on some 'they came from __' assumptions.

                              I think the bottom line that we are going to have to accept is that the major buyer of horse meat for Human Consumption, the EU is not happy with the potential for those substances and has suggested that they will require a lifetime passport for all horses slaughtered for that market.
                              Whether we agree with that being a 'smart' choice or not is irrelevant. They have made that choice.
                              Last edited by Angela Freda; Jun. 11, 2013, 12:12 PM. Reason: spelling
                              Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                              http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                              Comment


                              • I'd rather be on the 3rd side as well..........................just sayin

                                Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                                These violations are NOT talking about small custom butcheries. Not in the least.

                                Hence the move to sustainable and local.

                                That's already happening.

                                It is a battle, but again, it's a battle from a third side. One side says "no animals should be killed ever" the other side says "keep everything as it is"...

                                and the third side says "there's another way".

                                I'm on that third side.
                                The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                                H. Cate

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
                                  The largest market in Mex is the export to the EU, of horses slaughtered at EU regulated SH;s. The only horses that are pithed are in the small SH that sell the meat to the Maquidoras (factories) which they feed the factory workers, often passing off as beef. And they have been slaughtering fewer horses than they used to because of the factories shutting down. We've always exported a few thousand horses a yr to them, even when the SH were open in TX. They only slaughter what they need to, in order to meet the demand by the factories/locally. (The huge increase you saw in exported horses to Mex when our SH shut down were sent to the EU regulated SH that kill exactly the same as we did and Canada does.) If the EU wants to enforce a no drugs rule/passport rule, it would probably reduce the number of US horses exported, even to the local SH that isn't a EU SH, because they would then have plenty of horses in their own country to slaughter, that are no longer EU qualified.
                                  It would be so nice if you actually knew what you were talking about. Asia has an "agreement" for the importation of 1 MILLION TONNES of horse meat..packed and frozen" NO reference to drugs at this time. This came to me from a buyer here in Canada who was on the trade mission. The year to start is 2015
                                  The Elephant in the room

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                                    These violations are NOT talking about small custom butcheries. Not in the least.

                                    Hence the move to sustainable and local.

                                    That's already happening.

                                    It is a battle, but again, it's a battle from a third side. One side says "no animals should be killed ever" the other side says "keep everything as it is"...

                                    and the third side says "there's another way".

                                    I'm on that third side.

                                    You've got to be kidding.

                                    You haven't noticed the decrease in small local slaughterhouses or the decrease in cattle ranchers/pig farmers ? It's even shown up more frequently on this board.

                                    Oh, I know, I know, that's the ECONOMY...it has nothing to do with the other actions taken.

                                    Listen OneGrayPony, if you want to believe that you can change a factory farming system and make people fund small, unprofitable slaughterhouses, you just go on and believe that. It's obvious that I won't ever change your mind about that. You're not even remotely open to it.

                                    But, I will warn you, that that's NOT how systems work. Not now, not ever.
                                    I'm not sure what to say if you can't understand that.




                                    You are far more unrealistic than I am, if you think we are ever going to have a country with small local abattoirs for horses in every city/county. Just look at what has happened to the smaller slaughterhouses for species we DO eat. We now have a few large CAFO's/SH's in the country that slaughter the majority of meat animals, due to trying to centralize everything to increase profit, and NIMBY thinking.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
                                      No.

                                      I've worked in the breeding industry for two 'disciplines' or areas for some large and less large [backyard] breeders as well as various and sundry boarding facilities [large and commercial and small ad backyard] in various English disciplines.

                                      They all used some or most of those drugs on that list even with their young horses. Wait, I'll correct that statement... they had available in the barns all of those drugs or most of them for the grooms/owners to use often times at our own discretion. Sometimes the Owner/Manager was aware of the use and sometimes we just grabbed what we needed and took care of it.

                                      Like you who doesn't use meds at all, I am basing how the equine industry as a whole functions regarding medications. My experience appears to be almost the polar opposite of yours regarding the use of many of those banned substances. While I understand there may be smallpockets of horses who come from a ranch that free ranges their horses and never medicates, I'm going with 'that is probably a minority'.

                                      Can I give you the exact numbers that come from this, that and the other groups? No, no one can.

                                      Even if you look at the shipping documents via FOIA, all you get is a guess at breed, age, color, sex, and... I forget. But there is no way to look at documented information on what number of the whole has or has not had meds based on some 'they came from __' assumptions.

                                      I think the bottom line that we are going to have to accept is that the major buyer of horse meat for Human Consumption, the EU is not happy with the potential for those substances and has suggested that they will require a lifetime passport for all horses slaughtered for that market.
                                      Whether we agree with that being a 'smart' choice or not is irrelevant. They have made that choice.
                                      Angela

                                      There IS a test for drugs in equine meat. There are tonnes of it shipped that are CERTIFIED...(the same tests the EU conducts to find out IF there are drugs in meat so please don't tell me there is no test).

                                      There is no test YET for LIVE horses..

                                      When did YOU speak with the EU or are you like the defense coalition "lady"..you know..the one with a sexy voice who claims she phones Brussels....never happens

                                      EU has not inspected any US plants because there are NONE

                                      Canada has PASSED with great grades based on the last inspection..
                                      The Elephant in the room

                                      Comment


                                      • I've worked in the breeding industry for two 'disciplines' or areas for some large and less large [backyard] breeders as well as various and sundry boarding facilities [large and commercial and small ad backyard] in various English disciplines.

                                        They all used some or most of those drugs on that list even with their young horses. Wait, I'll correct that statement... they had available in the barns all of those drugs or most of them for the grooms/owners to use often times at our own discretion. Sometimes the Owner/Manager was aware of the use and sometimes we just grabbed what we needed and took care of it.
                                        This, I think, is part of the issue with perception.

                                        You are assuming that the horses that come through these streams are just like your barns. And, for the record, I've worked at those places too. That I don't choose to medicate my horses like that is an entirely personal choice based on a lifetime of seeing the consequences of people who do for their horses.

                                        Anyway, I'm going to guess that they aren't, largely. First of all, it costs a lot of money to manage a horse like that. That sets the base price well out of the KB's hands. Then the horses are sold down the chain and by 6, I'd think it would be rare for them to be in the $500 "slaughter range".

                                        More on this in a minute.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                          Those horses weren't going to slaughter anyway. Come on you know that. It was a marketing ploy all along. When you take the "bail" and emotion out it, those who wanted to "save" a horse will stop buying.

                                          The market will absorb them, one way or another or they will be put down.

                                          It's been pointed out, several times, that demand drives the number of slaughtered horses, not the availability of horses for slaughter.
                                          Which is why, even with slaughter still an option for those who have horses they are trying to sell/give away in the US... you see, in these economic times, the free and cheap horses on Craigslist and all those other places.

                                          If slaughter was about cleaning up our 'horses no one wants' mess, and not about 'the demand for horse meat is XX tons'... those cheap/free Craigslist horses would be scooped up by the killbuyers- along with the horses they are presently shipping- and would be heading on out to slaughter.
                                          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                                          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                                          Comment

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