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More troubles in Canada horse slaughter plant land

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  • Original Poster

    Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
    Ah, you added more detail after I saw the post, more to address.

    Racing - perhaps someone infinitely more connected can re-explain what they actually found related to racing two year olds, and the effects on longevity. What I recall based on the studies that it was conformation, weather, and the breeding for the short distance, and not the longer races.

    I suspect that if slaughter is banned completely (still not sure how that's going to happen) the racing industry is going to be in a world of hurt, and will become like our sport horses, completely made up of imports.
    All because of 100,000 horses a year? Not bloody likely.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by jenm View Post
      Oh, please! I call you out on a post you cannot substantiate, and your response is to question semantics?!

      banned, ban·ning, bans
      1. To prohibit, especially by official decree:


      The government "prohibited" inspectors from being paid to inspect, ergot, it was banned.

      BTW, there are only two people who derive great pleasure from insulting my intelligence on a very regular basis: you and Bluey. Why not just be honest instead of using "people"?
      BTW, you are the first one that spoke of "intelligence", as if that was some kind of prerequisite here, as in post 460:

      ---"I'm really getting tired of your crap, Bluey. Why you continue to insult my intelligence and infer I have no idea what I'm talking about is beyond me. You have proven you are 100% incapable of having a decent debate without being a big meany.

      Get over yourself.
      Last edited by jenm; Jun. 4, 2013 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Added rolling eyes face because I'm tired of Bluey's holier than thou attitude and the fact she never apologies for her mistakes or unsportsmanlike behavior."---

      That you later edited some also.

      Then, when I have been responding to that "intelligence" word you brought up and in a bit more circumspect way, I have to say, not as insulting as you seem to come thru there, all of a sudden you are objecting to it's use?

      Just though maybe refreshing your memory on this would help lay playing the the offended martyr to rest.

      Comment


      • I understand what you are saying -there is a market for drug free horsemeat. What would the consequences be to us horseowners in doing that?? Don't you think that then we would have to do as Europe seems to in having the passport and then having a vet out every time to dispense medication?? That gets pretty pricey.

        Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
        I don't think that is the case.

        If we made it so that there was a market for that horse here, locally, then at least that horse would not have to take a trip up north or down south. They could recoup their costs here. And we don't even have to make the market really, it exists already in the EU, and there are (in many states) local abbatoirs that do custom butchery of many species.

        We would just have to a. Fight the legislation that does not currently allow that to happen and b. Figure out how to change public perception about what's good for the horse. Again, that comes down to focus and getting that third message out there.

        Right now at auction, the prices for kill horse sent up north (or down south) are set by the margin of profit that the KB has after the horse is shipped. This is cheaper than an ammy is willing to pay. Which is why the unethical ones typically first try to dump them off on those of us who do care, then the next option is the auction where the return is almost guaranteed to be something.

        So if we offered the European market a product that was not only humane, but worth more to the unethical than the guy who ships them up north, we've fixed two problems.

        You have to kind of trace it back to the breeder to see where in each step, a person thinks he or she is doing the right thing but it ends up being bad.
        The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
        H. Cate

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
          BTW, you are the first one that spoke of "intelligence", as if that was some kind of prerequisite here, as in post 460:

          ---"I'm really getting tired of your crap, Bluey. Why you continue to insult my intelligence and infer I have no idea what I'm talking about is beyond me. You have proven you are 100% incapable of having a decent debate without being a big meany.

          Get over yourself.
          Last edited by jenm; Jun. 4, 2013 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Added rolling eyes face because I'm tired of Bluey's holier than thou attitude and the fact she never apologies for her mistakes or unsportsmanlike behavior."---

          That you later edited some also.

          Then, when I have been responding to that "intelligence" word you brought up and in a bit more circumspect way, I have to say, not as insulting as you seem to come thru there, all of a sudden you are objecting to it's use?

          Just though maybe refreshing your memory on this would help lay playing the the offended martyr to rest.
          Alrighty then you two, Time out! Out of the sand box till you can place nice!

          Comment


          • Laura, Lady E had already made the point that it was a dying industry. You had linked initially to a post that postulated that the majority of the drug problem came from ex-racers. If there is a more logical conclusion than that I'd be open to hearing it.

            It seems to me that you are saying "nothing will happen if slaughter is banned" and the pro side is saying "nothing should happen to change the current state of affairs"

            I find neither answer complete nor satisfactory.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
              I understand what you are saying -there is a market for drug free horsemeat. What would the consequences be to us horseowners in doing that?? Don't you think that then we would have to do as Europe seems to in having the passport and then having a vet out every time to dispense medication?? That gets pretty pricey.
              That would be assuming most of the horses going over seas are from private owners? Or even from the US?
              Does anyone know where the majority of the European countries get their horse meat? I thought Belgium bred for food. Some place does doesn't it?

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                Bluey, you really don't want to start playing that game. I don't have time right now, but if you continue to insult enough people, someone is going to list pages and pages of your nasty, insulting comments. Make my day.

                Back to the topic at hand...well, you have to incentivize ethical behavior. Right now, the financial incentive is on the side of unethical behavior. I don't know how you fix that, we have that problem throughout the country in every industry.

                Comment


                • What would the consequences be to us horseowners in doing that?? Don't you think that then we would have to do as Europe seems to in having the passport and then having a vet out every time to dispense medication?? That gets pretty pricey.
                  Yep, it would. I thought about that issue too. How would you address it otherwise?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                    Yes, honesty is good! But how do we incentivize it?

                    I mean, look at the hunters, we've got a very successful barn accused of a very big problem with the Heritage Farm issue. This is someone who should have been honest, but wasn't.

                    And look, for those who are concerned that I'm trapping people into anything - I would be wonderfully glad if we came up with a way of making this industry work well through positive incentives for ethical behavior. I'm not stuck on any one solution.
                    I would love to hear solutions for rewarding honest, ethical behavior in the equine world. However, because many people compete to win rather than for the sheer joy of being with their horse, it would be difficult to get people to stop and take a step back to regroup. Trainers get new clients when their existing clients are successful and consistently in the ribbons. As I've witnessed in the H/J world, many owners and parents of children are removed from the day to day activities of caring for their horse and may not even know what cocktail of drugs is being administered by the trainer.

                    I know a woman who buys two new six figure horses every two years and then sells the "old" ones, who are usually about 8 or 9. Her reasoning is she doesn't want to take care of them or deal with soundness issues when the horses get older. Most people can't afford to do this, so they have to put "band aids" on the horses they have.

                    Perhaps if trainers made money based on the amount of fun their riders were having, there could be incentive to stress fun instead of winning. Until then, I don't know how else trainers could keep clients.
                    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
                    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
                    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                      So then the question becomes (for me anyway) how do we change the sport so that suitable horses are doing suitable work? For instance, how do we breed kids ponies so that they are both talented *AND* child safe and will hold up to the rigors of showing and kids, without drug use and injections, or for heavens sakes drugging them up and pretending they don't have laminitis.

                      Similarly with the quarter horses or the racehorses or the jumpers?
                      A good 20+ years ago the at that time I think was called ASHA, that regulated hunter/jumper show, started talking about testing for drug residues.

                      I won't name names, I don't know where they stand today, but several BNTs, some quoted on COTH the magazine itself, were saying, "if we have a great campaigner that is still happy but a bit off and some bute keeps it showing at the lower levels without problem, what is the harm?
                      We accept that for humans, how many have joint problems and take medication regularly for that?
                      If not medicating those horses, now off enough not to pass vet check, they then would not be of any use any more.
                      Keeping them working and showing lightly, on medication, is the best for many of them.
                      If necessary, to avoid any abuses, register those horses and make the legal limits for them reasonable."

                      I thought they had a valid point there.
                      I am glad we don't put humans out to pasture when they are off, but can do what we do with some medication to keep us going.

                      Comment


                      • That would be assuming most of the horses going over seas are from private owners? Or even from the US?
                        Much of the European market is covered with their own horses. Belgium breeds for meat and many of the other countries cull for meat. That is their current system.

                        Comment


                        • I know a woman who buys two new six figure horses every two years and then sells the "old" ones, who are usually about 8 or 9. Her reasoning is she doesn't want to take care of them or deal with soundness issues when the horses get older. Most people can't afford to do this, so they have to put "band aids" on the horses they have.
                          Yep, I know quite a few of those as well.

                          So again, we (and I don't mean you and I) as an industry are currently incentivizing the breeder that breeds a horse who is talented but not built for the job. And in fact, it seems like the bigger the name and the higher the price tag in some sports, the more likely that behavior is to occur.

                          Comment


                          • A good 20+ years ago the at that time I think was called ASHA, that regulated hunter/jumper show, started talking about testing for drug residues.
                            The USEF does that. But it is chasing it's own tail. As the list of medications grows, the ways around the rules get worse and worse, in particular for the horses.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                              Laura, Lady E had already made the point that it was a dying industry. You had linked initially to a post that postulated that the majority of the drug problem came from ex-racers. If there is a more logical conclusion than that I'd be open to hearing it.

                              It seems to me that you are saying "nothing will happen if slaughter is banned" and the pro side is saying "nothing should happen to change the current state of affairs"

                              I find neither answer complete nor satisfactory.
                              You may be too new to these debates, but when the talk started of plants trying to open, I was clear to disagree.
                              That was NOT a good idea, because all this would do and I was proven right, is to give animal rights extremists more to grandstand about and so get even more free publicity, that equals an easy way to revamp their flagging donation numbers of late.

                              Worked so well, now this is the year they are launching a frontal attack on all we do with animals, especially animal agriculture, as per their own statements.

                              Just think all they are gaining just by keep getting their name out there and then mailing all those letters begging for money?

                              All that money sure is paying for many of the best PR firms out there and it shows.
                              Which would be fine, any profit to those that earn it is their right.
                              The trouble, they are gaining that to, ultimately, advance their vegan and more important for us here, animal rights extremist agenda of eliminating all uses of animals, included in that is our horses, for those that have not realized that yet.

                              Comment


                              • Some rendered animals are also going into petfood. Whether they should or not is a whole other story.

                                Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                                "What alternatives to the rendering process are available for animal disposal? Right now, there are none. It is less safe to bury euthanized animals in landfills because the sodium pentobarbital is still present in their bodies. Scavenging animals may ingest the pentobarbital and become ill or die (recently, a number of bald eagles were found to have died from this source in the U.S.)."

                                This is from a fact sheet on euthanization of dogs and cats that I'll cite in an edit to this post because my phone keeps wiping out my responses.

                                Edit: Here it is. Note that they also add that the biggest additions are from cattle and horses.
                                http://animalcare.lacounty.gov/cms1_031226.pdf
                                The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                                H. Cate

                                Comment


                                • Yep, I agree JGHIRETIRE. I'm not thrilled about the rendered animals going into pet food either particularly if they have drugs in them.

                                  Which keeps me coming back to the drugs being an issue, no matter how I slice it.

                                  You may be too new to these debates, but when the talk started of plants trying to open, I was clear to disagree.
                                  Bluey, I'm sorry if I have unfairly painted you as a slaughter proponent. I was assuming that everyone was being truthful about what you were saying. This is the first time I have heard otherwise and that may be because my reading comprehension isn't what it used to be.

                                  Comment


                                  • Drogheda Irish Ponies have a solution that has been extremely successful for them. They LEASE their hunter jumper ponies....starting at 12 hh and up to full size. They are leased from Canada to Palm Berach Fl. Phoenix, Indio, NYState to name a few.

                                    As the child grows out of the pony..they trade it bck in on another and as they grow in skill, they trade continue to trade up.

                                    It is hard to get started and it takes contacts, drive, ambition AND MONEY..but he has been doing it for over 15 years now and is very successful.

                                    It was also good for the horses during the recession. Those who couldn't keep the horse turned it back in. EVERYTHING is prepaid include the transportation back to an agreed upon destination.

                                    He has used Welsh, Connemara, American Saddlebred, Arabian, Thoroughbred, (a stallion stake winner from Brazil), and some other breeds

                                    Just a thought as to "thinking outside the box"

                                    Pro slaughter want the availability and they understand that it is also a way out for people..but the horse does not usually go from owner to owner to owner..good or bad...it IS the ultimate end.
                                    The Elephant in the room

                                    Comment


                                    • oops, OK, on reconsideration here is roughly what I said!

                                      Horses have a limited window of time where they can be resold, and it seems to be getting shorter. Anything over 11 or 12 is "too old." Anything below 6 or so is "too young/too green." (though obviously this varies by discipline.)

                                      And it's no help if a horse is in the right age range but "behind" in its training. My (ex-) trainer sneered at two nice sales horses I knew of, ages 6 and 7, because while they'd been started at 3 or 4, they'd been standing in a field until a few months before, when they went into dressage training. "6 and 7 and only doing Training Level? They're so far behind!" They have both earned very respectable scores (the younger one especially) at that level after 5 months of training, and should be moving to First Level sometime this summer, but they are, in her opinion "too old." Now these are not upper-level prospects, but solid, sound, ammy-friendly horses. (ETA: registered Morgans, sport-bred
                                      You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                                      1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                                      Comment


                                      • Actually the James Herriot books were based on what an actual vet did - he just changed his name.
                                        I keep thinking of that humane killer as well. I agree - why can't that be used??

                                        Originally posted by Sannois View Post
                                        I think it all adds, up. PEople saying, Oh that is not a lot to worry about.
                                        And well we all know how many problems there are in the land and air and water.
                                        I remember reading James Herriot books, and I looked up what they were using for Euthanasia And I realize most of his work was fiction, but there was something vets used to carry called a humane killer, Clean, bolt to the brain.
                                        Not the stunn things in the Slaughter houses. Looked like a pistol.
                                        I cannot see anything wrong with that done by and experienced vet.
                                        No pink juice, Clean quick kill, and animal is safe to compost, or render or be used as Food. ?? No??
                                        The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                                        H. Cate

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                          Bluey, you really don't want to start playing that game. I don't have time right now, but if you continue to insult enough people, someone is going to list pages and pages of your nasty, insulting comments. Make my day.

                                          Back to the topic at hand...well, you have to incentivize ethical behavior. Right now, the financial incentive is on the side of unethical behavior. I don't know how you fix that, we have that problem throughout the country in every industry.
                                          I think your posts related to that would definitely outnumber mine.
                                          You seem to be my personal thread stalker, easy to see to anyone that reads all the comments you have been making every time I post anything anywhere where you can.

                                          Yes, I quit just ignoring the pick-pick-pick posts, just as yours there.

                                          Maybe making such posts stick out will make those that post such think twice.
                                          May work, maybe not, but ignoring them didn't seen to help either, so there you have it.

                                          Comment

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