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The "forever home" hypocrisy

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  • #41
    I got blasted on a Facebook horse sales page (local to my horse community) because a girl posted an ad for a young mixed breed horse who was going blind and was not beginner safe. She was asking over 1k and a "forever home is a must".

    I guess I was in a bad mood and just commented something like "why do you think someone should PAY you to take a horse that is basically unusable, you don't know exactly why it's going blind, and you admit that you just want a different horse?"

    Other people made it out like I was being rude, but I don't think I was... Why is it my responsibility to pay for your mistake?

    Jay is basically "useless" but i'd never expect anyone to help me support him. I bought him, he's my responsibility until he (or I) dies.
    http://www.clarkdesigngrouparchitects.com/index.html - Lets build your dream barn

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    • #42
      cowgirljenn - what a fantastic and reasonable policy you have for your rescue.

      Sometimes a new home can be a great thing for even a well-loved horse. I always thought that I would keep my old TB gelding forever, but he was not happy being my semi-retired trail horse and is now thriving teaching a formerly dressage-only riding friend of mine how to do intro level eventing and jumpers. In fact, he so enjoys the chance to be someone's show pony again that he throws a bit of a fit if he sees my friend loading one of her other horses in the trailer for a dressage show and he isn't brought along too! He's welcome to come back to me at anytime, of course, but it is fun to see him so happy and sassy again.

      Just a little anecdote from someone (me) who previously thought without a doubt that good forever homes were the best. Now I've seen the horses' and riders' needs change over time and that providing a horse with good care and training and then moving him along to a different/more suitable home is not a bad thing.

      Of course, the risk is always there the a horse could fall into bad hands somewhere along the line. And I think in the case of aged or lame/unhealthy animals it is the current owner's responsibility to either pay for the animal's upkeep or humanely euthanize him.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by GrayTbred View Post
        Like a lot of you, I follow Craigslist and other sites for horse ads. More often than not, there's some variation on the phrase "forever home a must"....
        .....don't the sellers realize that the other circumstances that may have prompted this sale -- job loss, illness, etc. -- could just as easily befall the buyer? Then what? Another "forever home" hand-off?
        A variation of this is one of the arguments we are making regarding the bills that have been introduced that include the effective seizure of our horses by the government, after they ban our business.

        Both groups (one at the state level, one local) are assuring anyone who asks, "What will happen to the horses?" that the proposed legislation will insure that "each horse will be placed in a loving, forever home or rescue."

        So NYC or NYS will be responsible, by law, to find 220+ "loving, forever homes" for our mostly draft horses, and then what? Keep tabs on each adopter for the rest of our horses' natural lives (many of which are now 5-10 years old), who will be scattered to the four winds, making certain they are all being cared for, and will never change hands? <snort> NYC can't even be bothered returning lost dogs to their owners when they are chipped, and NYS can't even keep tabs on civil service overtime

        (They claim in public that the groups themselves will be responsible for the adoptions - as if that is any better)

        Sample:

        Lindsay Emm
        Is there a planned process to ensure the horses go to safe and loving farms? Or will the company/owners get free reign over where the horses go?
        May 14 at 9:55pm near New York

        · May 16 at 11:39am
        Stopping NYC Horse Abuse
        Yes, the legislation we advocate for, Intro 86A, would require that the NYC carriage horse owners turn over their horses to an approved rescue, sanctuary or private farm. NYCLASS, in coordination with the ASPCA, will ensure that every single NYC carriage horse is matched with a loving forever home -- just like our rescued carriage horse, Chance. We are maintaining a long list of prospective adopters.

        Right now, carriage horses have no legal protections once their careers are over -- and many have been found on the auction block. In fact, 60-70 carriage horses disappear off of city rolls every year -- with no record of where they ended up.

        The law we are pushing for would make sure that no horse ends up at a slaughter plant.
        1 · May 16 at 11:29am


        (BTW, their "60-70 horses" claim is totally false, as is the "auction block" assertion.)
        VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

        https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

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        • #44
          Ugh, I am so tired of reading the personal agendas that are brought into every conversation.


          I so wish I could offer a forever home, I kind of worry about it. I own one horse I board, he costs me $500 a month in just board and farrier, sure I could get that for less, but then the quality might be less too. Right now he has the good life.

          I agree with the OP, if that horse has packed around your child for a million years, done everything they should, then that forever home should be with you. I understand that's not always possible, but if you are just planning to upgrade, then you owe that horse a turn out, and to pay for it.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
            "I don't have time" is code for any of the following words and actually means, I don't have: gumption, motivation, talent, experience, smarts, energy, interest.
            I think most of the time, it's just a simple "I don't want this horse anymore." But in these brave times it's somewhat of a faux pas to just come out and say you no longer want your pet, so you have to provide a valid reason for why you're not a heartless monster (at least with horses it's relatively easy and you can give the pat answers of "no time" or "outgrown" - with dogs or other housepets people really twist themselves into knots).

            I'm also sick of everyone adopting or rescuing animals. Yes, I know there are folks who bona fide do that, but most of the people I know who say this just, you know, bought the critter (and not by outbidding the meatman or pitching in for a CL starvation case).
            Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

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            • #46
              Originally posted by AlexS View Post
              Ugh, I am so tired of reading the personal agendas that are brought into every conversation.


              I so wish I could offer a forever home, I kind of worry about it. I own one horse I board, he costs me $500 a month in just board and farrier, sure I could get that for less, but then the quality might be less too. Right now he has the good life.

              I agree with the OP, if that horse has packed around your child for a million years, done everything they should, then that forever home should be with you. I understand that's not always possible, but if you are just planning to upgrade, then you owe that horse a turn out, and to pay for it.
              There is a countervailing veiw.

              Every dollar spent on an unserviceable, aged horse that you "owe" means that dollar is not available to spend on a young horse that you might equally "owe." So which debt is superior?

              If your name is Kennedy or Kerry then maybe you don't have to address this issue. If it's not, then you do.

              The idea that I owe my property something is not one that I readily embrace. Horses are chattels. This does not mean we willy-nilly fail to provide that which is needed. It does mean that we remove our "rose colored glasses" and cast off the self-inflicted "baggage" of the myth and legend of "debt" to property.

              How folks choose to address this issue is up to them. They may choose whatever path they wish. But an occational comment about that choice is not out of order.

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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              • #47
                The only way to guarantee a "forever home" is to keep your horse.
                www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                  There is a countervailing veiw.

                  Every dollar spent on an unserviceable, aged horse that you "owe" means that dollar is not available to spend on a young horse that you might equally "owe." So which debt is superior?

                  If your name is Kennedy or Kerry then maybe you don't have to address this issue. If it's not, then you do.

                  The idea that I owe my property something is not one that I readily embrace. Horses are chattels. This does not mean we willy-nilly fail to provide that which is needed. It does mean that we remove our "rose colored glasses" and cast off the self-inflicted "baggage" of the myth and legend of "debt" to property.

                  How folks choose to address this issue is up to them. They may choose whatever path they wish. But an occational comment about that choice is not out of order.

                  G.
                  With all due respect, this is a truly oddball perspective. Yes, horses may be "chattel" and "property" legally, but that isn't how most of us see them--particularly our longtime companions who've been with us through thick and thin for many years. We definitely feel more obligation to their continued welfare (and we SHOULD!) than we do for the kind of "property" one dumps off at the local Goodwill.

                  Horses are not used athletic equipment.

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                  • #49
                    I don't think it's an off the wall perspective. It's the truth. I've had similar thoughts for several years, and conversations with trainers and other horse people along the same lines.

                    The only reason my old horse is still inhaling & exhaling is she's keeping Mom going. If I could, she'd be gone tomorrow. The debt is to parents, not the horse. If I made up a balance sheet based on what she's gotten & what she's given - the horse owes ME.
                    Visit my Spoonflower shop

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                    • #50
                      I find it the same as any other term.....abused by those not meaning it for themselves. However? That doesn't mean its not a legit term by those that will live by it. Its not at all for everybody! And its not BAD to not have that conviction. Being dishonest is the bad part. Using it for your own marketing ends but not believing in it is the bad part. I'm now looking for my second horse. Because my one (always only had one...why? because I KNEW I couldn't give 100% to more than one...illness, lameness, needs, concerns....I GAVE him my promise, and as mentioned earlier, PLANNED for that in good times or bad.....)
                      and now, we're approaching many many months/into years now? of ambiguous lameness, countless exams, proceedures, testing........he's eating, walking, living fine! Just not 100% and just can't find it. (anyway...didn't mean to get into diagnostics here...believe me...we're 'on it' in that concern) But...he's not going anywhere. That is MY decision. It may not be yours and I do NOT JUDGE. We all have them for varied reasons and plans and there ya go. But I can and WILL use 'forever home' if I say so, I will live it. (if I die? uh, sorry that's my escape clause....) but I'll try my best to make sure this is what my possible second horse will enjoy, and BECAUSE of that, I'll tire kick, vet, question, ask for references, trial periods, etc out the ying yang. Don't like it? Fine by me...but don't ASK for a 'forever home' if not. That comes with someone willing to stick by a horse that doesn't come TO them with undisclosed issues. I want to find it all out first.......and say.....I chose you. I worked hard to do so. If you become mine, you won't go down the road because I didn't do my INTITIAL homework. What happens to you during/in your life with ME is my responsibility to make work out because I chose you. I'm living this now. So don't judge me....I promise I don't judge you! I just find the only issue isn't the term, but the honesty.
                      ayrabz
                      "Indecision may or may not be my problem"
                      --Jimmy Buffett

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                        With all due respect, this is a truly oddball perspective. Yes, horses may be "chattel" and "property" legally, but that isn't how most of us see them--particularly our longtime companions who've been with us through thick and thin for many years. We definitely feel more obligation to their continued welfare (and we SHOULD!) than we do for the kind of "property" one dumps off at the local Goodwill.

                        Horses are not used athletic equipment.
                        But they are, ultimately, just personal property that happens to be breathing. It's dangerous to allow sentiment and anthropomorphism into laws regarding what are in the end only sales transactions. I'm GLAD people aren't required to keep horses forever because they "owe" them something. I've had two horses (and might be acquiring another) who wouldn't have been available if those who'd benefited from them believed in 'forever' homes, or that putting them down would be better than selling (or giving away).

                        Sure, I find it a little classless when people have an elderly horse they've had for years and are saying "forever home a must" just because they want a new horse. But I find getting rid of six-figure show horses who've gone lame or just don't have the 'oomph' any more, rather than retiring them even if that means no new horse for a while, a bit tacky, too. If people moving on their old packer on CL for $300 should be obligated to the horse forever even if it means no new one, so should people who want to sell their aging show horse because they need a new one.
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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by michaleenflynn View Post
                          A variation of this is one of the arguments we are making regarding the bills that have been introduced that include the effective seizure of our horses by the government, after they ban our business.

                          Both groups (one at the state level, one local) are assuring anyone who asks, "What will happen to the horses?" that the proposed legislation will insure that "each horse will be placed in a loving, forever home or rescue."

                          So NYC or NYS will be responsible, by law, to find 220+ "loving, forever homes" for our mostly draft horses, and then what? Keep tabs on each adopter for the rest of our horses' natural lives (many of which are now 5-10 years old), who will be scattered to the four winds, making certain they are all being cared for, and will never change hands? <snort> NYC can't even be bothered returning lost dogs to their owners when they are chipped, and NYS can't even keep tabs on civil service overtime

                          (They claim in public that the groups themselves will be responsible for the adoptions - as if that is any better)

                          Sample:

                          Lindsay Emm
                          Is there a planned process to ensure the horses go to safe and loving farms? Or will the company/owners get free reign over where the horses go?
                          May 14 at 9:55pm near New York

                          · May 16 at 11:39am
                          Stopping NYC Horse Abuse
                          Yes, the legislation we advocate for, Intro 86A, would require that the NYC carriage horse owners turn over their horses to an approved rescue, sanctuary or private farm. NYCLASS, in coordination with the ASPCA, will ensure that every single NYC carriage horse is matched with a loving forever home -- just like our rescued carriage horse, Chance. We are maintaining a long list of prospective adopters.

                          Right now, carriage horses have no legal protections once their careers are over -- and many have been found on the auction block. In fact, 60-70 carriage horses disappear off of city rolls every year -- with no record of where they ended up.

                          The law we are pushing for would make sure that no horse ends up at a slaughter plant.
                          1 · May 16 at 11:29am


                          (BTW, their "60-70 horses" claim is totally false, as is the "auction block" assertion.)
                          I've had this conversation with demonstrators in my town, where there are carriage horses, when they protest the horses having to work for a living. I remind them that these horses (mostly ex trotters or Amish) a lucky to have a job and would most likely not be follicking in a pasture somewhere if they did not. But the majority of the good folks have no idea what keeping a horse entails.

                          I think we all go into horse ownership like a marriage. We plan for it to be "forever" unless we are planning on moving up and trading in from the start.
                          Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

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                          • #53
                            I plan on doing my best to keep my horse 'forever'. But I also am realistic enough to understand that sometimes...things happen that you can't control. So I've tried to do my best to make him marketable and I've informed my family of what I want done with him should I pass away and that I've got money set aside for just that.
                            The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
                            Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.

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                            • #54
                              Unlike my car or my coffeetable, my horse can suffer.

                              Yes, she's property. I don't anthropomorphize her, and I certainly don't feel that I "owe" my animals a forever home. She's 23 now, she was already older when I bought her, she is not only my first horse but is the first horse I learned to ride on, and I'm attached to her. I (or my estate) can afford to give her a retirement home when the time comes, and I will do so - because I want to do that. Because it will give me warm fuzzy feelings.
                              (I also go away for weeks, even months at a time. My standing order to the BO and vet is clear - if something happens that looks major-surgical, she goes to the Big Sleep. Don't bother getting my approval first, you already have it).

                              I intend to own other (younger) horses in the future, and I fully expect to buy and sell them as my situation and need dictates. Because they can suffer, I will do my due diligence, check references, etc.
                              But I don't intend to put in first-refusal clauses, keep tabs, or free-lease only to keep control of my future horses.
                              Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

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