• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Article: Nokota horses don't have enough hay to make it to summer.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Horses are livestock, just like cows, pigs, sheep, etc.

    If a herd/flock/gaggle/etc. gets too big to be supported it must be culled. You can can cull by sale, gift, lease, euthanasia, or some combination thereof.

    The assertions of "unique genetics" are pretty thin, but then claims like that get folks open their wallets. Or maybe the teary-eyed HSUS/PETA/ASPCA class commercials common on basic cable.

    Cull the herd so that the feed available will be in sync with the mouths to be fed.

    It may cause some hurt, but like The Dread Pirate Roberts says in "The Princess Bride," "Life is pain; anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something."

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

    Comment


    • #22
      It's May. Grass starts coming up in March why are they saying they need to wait until summer?

      Unless the article was old and written by someone who doesn't know horses, something doesn't feel right.
      A pussycat of a horse with a chewed off tail won the triple crown, The Cubs won the world series and Trump won the Presidency.
      Don't tell me 'It can't be done.'

      Comment


      • #23
        North Dakota isn't on the same growing schedule as L A, CA.
        http://www.grazinghandbook.com/bin/ccs6r3.pdf

        "Llewellyn L. Manske PhD, Range Scientist
        Amy M. Kraus, Composition Assistant
        Thomas C. Jirik, Agriculture Communication Editor
        North Dakota State University
        Dickinson Research Extension Center


        Turning livestock onto native range too early in the spring can be costly to producers, says a North Dakota State University range scientist.
        Grazing too early in the season damages plants and limits herbage production by removing leaf area from grass that has not recovered from winter dormancy," says Lee Manske, range scientist at NDSU’s Dickinson Research Extension Center.

        "This damage from early grazing reduces the forage available to livestock later in the season and decreases profits."

        Manske says grass cannot withstand defoliation until it reaches the third-leaf stage, when plants have produced sufficient foliage to support growth. "The arrival of plants at the third-leaf stage is the most reliable indicator that producers can use to determine when grazing may safely begin," he notes. The date on which the third new leaf appears varies by plant type. Most native range cool-season grasses are ready for grazing in early June and warm-season species are ready about two weeks later."


        http://www.grazinghandbook.com/
        So grass maturity for grazing may not be available yet.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by 5 View Post
          It's May. Grass starts coming up in March why are they saying they need to wait until summer?.
          Haven't ever lived very far north, have you?

          Here in Northern Colorado, we're JUST starting to see green stuff in the fields.

          I bet in North Dakota you've got to be into mid-June or July to really have anything that will feed a horse full time without supplementing hay, and then only if you've actually got the rain to make stuff grow....

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Susan P View Post
            Nokota horses are not mustangs.
            Oh, good grief. Yes, they are. So are Kigers. So are Spanish Colonial whatevers. They're all variations on horses that were left to fend for themselves out west and have bred into a feral population. Some of them have been genetically typed to certain lineages; some of them are big question marks; all of them are mutts to varying degrees.

            I have seen a fair number of Nokotas in person and I have yet to see one that would convince me they are so marvelously special that they should be bred in these numbers. Breeding up a huge herd and then throwing yourself at the public's feet asking for money to help feed them is not okay even if the horses in question ARE really fancy and genetically rare.
            life + horses
            beljoeor.blogspot.com

            Comment


            • #26
              Thank you Kerlin. I honestly didn't know what a Nakota was, assumed it WAS a mustang. And I was right. It's the Gypsy Vanner of North America.

              Comment


              • #27
                Not gypsy vanners, because they don't bring the prices that the vanners do.

                It is sad for the horses as it is still cold winter in the Dakotas. However, the people to blame are those who have bred these horses without doing DNA testing, and with, well, just not thinking ahead. We've been in an economic decline since 2007. And people, not just these Nokota people, but horse breeders everywhere, just keep breeding horses they cannot sell or give away.

                Sad for the horses. But stupid of the people. Nokotas are not a breed, or a registry, and aren't breed for any sport or use. Someone just named some horses Nokotas, and added more horses to that herd and kept on breeding.

                Comment


                • #28
                  They're definitely more expensive than your average un-papered horse of uncertain lineage . That won't help their plight AT ALL.

                  And it's snowing right now in ND. Stupid, stupid people.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    By the way, no government agency have ever given a single penny to help preserve this native horse of the Northern Plains and the Honorary State Equine of North Dakota. They stole their land where they were placed by the owner and sold them for slaughter through auctions. It was an uphill battle costing this family so much, time, money and giving up valuable land to keep them. They are not being reimbursed but the Nokota Horse Conservancy (not conservatory) has only in recent years kept their own horses. Prior to that the Kuntz family did it at their own expense while they fought for recognition to get the park to stop selling them at auction. The park ignored requests even after they became the state symbol and now all of the full blood original horses have been removed from the park and only half or part bloods remain. The horses have been well researched by a highly professional researcher, Dr. McLaughlin.

                    I've been involved with helping this organization save the remaining horses for over 10 years, oh gosh, even more because my first Nokota is now 19 I think. I got him when he was 4, wow my math stinks and I'm getting so old. That's when I fell in love with them, he's so silly and fun but also sensitive and athletic, smart. When he lived at Fair Hill for 2 years leading trail rides, eventing, some dressage etc. he was a real pet. Now he's just a steady and kind horse, big guy too.

                    Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
                    I'll say it again: take the mustangs off the US Govt. payroll and privatize the breed into a regsitry. There's NO reason they should be supoorted by tax payers...and barely being supported at that.

                    (ETA)Just realized this is a private operation. My goodness.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      I'll repeat myself, the horses have been DNA tested and well researched. They are breeding to protect the gene pool.

                      There are 2 types separately preserved as recommended by Dr. Sponnenberg, the Ranch and Traditional types. There are significantly more Ranch type in the world, not all are being bred. There are probably not more than 200 Traditional (Indian type) left. They have been brought back from near extinction.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        They would reduce the breeding under these circumstances.

                        Originally posted by Mara View Post
                        Here's the thing, though (and I don't mean to dissuade any donors): when hay supply is non-existent in your vicinity, and you already have over 450 horses, you suspend the breeding operations for a little while, at least until the food supply has stabilized in terms of steady availability. You can still preserve the bloodlines; a year or a few won't matter.

                        Just making a point - it is entirely possible that the Conservancy has already taken this measure.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          those are privately owned horses, not conservancy horses.

                          Originally posted by MonterStables View Post
                          Sounds to me like they're not just breeding willy nilly like the mustangs do. I mean, I've read about this a little bit in the various horse breed books that I have and it never sounds like they're being irresponsible about breeding. Its funny because there is a horse on the for sale page that is for sale for 10k I think that was fourth at Dressage At Devon. He's pretty good looking stallion, and call me silly, but if he's performing at that kind of event at all, he's got to be nice!

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Susan P View Post
                            By the way, no government agency have ever given a single penny to help preserve this native horse of the Northern Plains and the Honorary State Equine of North Dakota.
                            But there is legislation pushing for the National Park Service to provide "appropriate management" of these horses - on National Park Land.

                            Originally posted by Susan P View Post
                            They stole their land where they were placed by the owner and sold them for slaughter through auctions.
                            Wait - the Federal Government stole land from the brothers? The brothers owned land that they put their horses on, and the Feds stole the land and sold the horses - or did the brothers put horses on land that was not theirs - and the government sold the horses?

                            Originally posted by Susan P View Post
                            They would reduce the breeding under these circumstances.
                            What are they currently doing to reduce the numbers breeding? Its spring, mares are foaling now and coming into foal heats - they have ONE WEEKS WORTH OF HAY LEFT. Please tell me that all of the stallions have been removed from the herds - have they?
                            APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Anything that you read that has no part of the Nokota Horse Conservancy may have NOTHING to do with the Nokota Horse Conservancy which does not own 450 horses. If they own 200 I would be surprised. Some horses are privately owned by those that run the conservancy and the "horses for sale" is not horses in the conservancy, they are privately owned and this is a way to help owners sell their horses when they choose.

                              You can't always predict how each season will turn out and yes some people may breed before they can guarantee the next year. Most charities do hope each year and sometimes each week that they will have funds to survive and pay their bills whatever the charity.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Ive sent $ before and will send again - always had a soft spot for Indian ponies.
                                from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by tidy wabbit View Post
                                  Not gypsy vanners, because they don't bring the prices that the vanners do.

                                  It is sad for the horses as it is still cold winter in the Dakotas. However, the people to blame are those who have bred these horses without doing DNA testing, and with, well, just not thinking ahead. We've been in an economic decline since 2007. And people, not just these Nokota people, but horse breeders everywhere, just keep breeding horses they cannot sell or give away.

                                  Sad for the horses. But stupid of the people. Nokotas are not a breed, or a registry, and aren't breed for any sport or use. Someone just named some horses Nokotas, and added more horses to that herd and kept on breeding.
                                  Nokotas are a legit breed.

                                  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokota_horse

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    So much inaccurate information, all of the original horses have ALREADY been removed and sold from Theodore Roosevelt National Park, they only have crossbred horses now.

                                    The Nokota Horse Conservancy has NOTHING to do with any government agency, it is operated by volunteers like other animal rescues and sanctuaries that depend on donations. This organization does breed in order to preserve this particular breed and they do it selectively. They use historic documents to select horses to breed and DNA and don't breed except for the purpose of preservation. This doesn't apply to privately owned horses which may be crossbred because they are not part of the organization and may just be bred as quality horses. They are not part of the NHC www.nokotahorse.org

                                    QUOTE=Appsolute;6967042]But there is legislation pushing for the National Park Service to provide "appropriate management" of these horses - on National Park Land.



                                    Wait - the Federal Government stole land from the brothers? The brothers owned land that they put their horses on, and the Feds stole the land and sold the horses - or did the brothers put horses on land that was not theirs - and the government sold the horses?



                                    What are they currently doing to reduce the numbers breeding? Its spring, mares are foaling now and coming into foal heats - they have ONE WEEKS WORTH OF HAY LEFT. Please tell me that all of the stallions have been removed from the herds - have they?[/QUOTE]

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #38
                                      I don't live in ND and do not routinely monitor the actions of the NHC or the family that cares for the horses.

                                      To be honest, if you want more information about them you can research, read their web site, Google them or email them. If you just are trying to criticize then I am done participating. I know that there is an element in COTH that loves train wrecks. The NHC is a legitimate 501 (c)(3) with excellent credentials that unlike some dirty organizations the NHC struggles to survive to save these rare, historic American treasures and the government has only fought them, never helped. They did this because they thought it was important. They didn't profit by this effort but it cost them. The few supporters that they have are growing but they aren't given millions of dollars, they may barely get enough and they work very hard and use their personal space for the office and that's all I'm going to say. I didn't ask anyone here to give but I posted the article and mostly I've just read criticism.

                                      Give or don't give, the only thing that we have to lose are these rare horses. If you want to protect and preserve them and want to help it's your choice, I just shared information.


                                      Originally posted by Appsolute View Post
                                      But there is legislation pushing for the National Park Service to provide "appropriate management" of these horses - on National Park Land.



                                      Wait - the Federal Government stole land from the brothers? The brothers owned land that they put their horses on, and the Feds stole the land and sold the horses - or did the brothers put horses on land that was not theirs - and the government sold the horses?



                                      What are they currently doing to reduce the numbers breeding? Its spring, mares are foaling now and coming into foal heats - they have ONE WEEKS WORTH OF HAY LEFT. Please tell me that all of the stallions have been removed from the herds - have they?

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Thanks MonterStables

                                        Originally posted by MonterStables View Post

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Thanks WIW

                                          Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                                          Ive sent $ before and will send again - always had a soft spot for Indian ponies.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X