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  • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
    I think Sannois marches to her own drummer. Which is a good thing, even if sometimes I disagree with her.
    Thanks Laura, I have to say I take that as a huge compliment. I try.
    And The older I get the more I try. LOL
    Last edited by Sannois; May. 25, 2013, 08:47 PM.

    Comment


    • How else do they end up in pet food and other things.


      Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
      Euthanized animals are rendered every day.
      The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
      H. Cate

      Comment


      • The problem is that some of them actually do.
        There was an interview with a guy that put the horses on the truck. He spoke in detail exactly why they would gouge out eyes or beat a horse over the head.
        Horses do go to slaughter that have laminitis.
        You've got your own head stuck in the........sand if you think it's all rosy.



        Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
        A horse with a broken leg could not be shipped for slaughter so that is a moot issue. A horse dying of a disease could not be shipped for slaughter..

        Slaughter is a solution for someone having to dump the four family horses no one wants so the family can move to where they can be employed. We will see more and more of that...or properties are not available for having horses...or board becomes too expensive...a variety of reasons. Not everyone has a charmed life like the anti slaughter crowd on COTH

        Some actually have real lives and real problems.
        The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
        H. Cate

        Comment


        • Yes I've had relatives die thank you. Yes I know all about probate. Life goes on.
          Even for you that's kind of a low blow.

          Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
          You are in the minority.

          They have tried to figure out what to do with them...and NO ONE WANTS THEM...period...not every horse on CL is starving or owned by BaBa Bob with his 13 year old over weight son sitting on the yearling to prove its broken to ride

          No one should have kids until they have all of the money in the bank up to graduation from a PhD program in University.

          No one should get married until they can afford to pay cash for their house

          No one should ever use credit.

          Problem is...even good people have bad things happen. You are lucky...

          Have you ever had a relative die? Do you know that probate can sometimes take 6 months to a year...

          Sadly...many think like you..because THEY have never experienced a temperature of 110 on July 01 THAT is proof of climate change.

          The USDA link for incineration of horses is in a pdf file. I remember it took forever to download. There is a link I provided on another thread...I just don't know which one it was on. ..but it would have been on a slaughter one from Jan-Mar somewhere
          The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
          H. Cate

          Comment


          • You seem to have missed the point that 100k horses get slaughtered no matter what.
            You're losing the argument - and apparently your reason.

            Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
            Anyone got a solution for ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND HORSES? We need one..by tomorrow..for the WHOLE WORKS...not just lets all save a horsey...

            You can stop slaughter if you have a solution for these unwanted horses..probably that number for the next ten years.
            The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
            H. Cate

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
              I am not pro choice slaughter because I need to use it. I do see a need for it. Whether it is to have a quick end to a life that no longer has a purpose or function, or if it is to remove horses from a potential life of starvation etc.

              Many times seniors continue to breed past "their" due date..same as they drive their vehicles when I consider them to be unsafe. Their families have no interest in the horses be it 2 or 22 but when Mom and Dad die, they find these four legged eating machines are dumped on them.

              They do not know the ins and outs of horse sales..they want them gone so they put them in auctions. That is their right and that is also very legal.

              IF there was another solution I am sure an anti sla poster would have presented it.

              Lady E has many points but no solutions to assist the market adjustment. There are just too many horses...period

              It is now at a critical point and so every solution is worked to the max

              Rescues no longer are able to rescue.

              Look at CL..the number of free horses..people are trying to find them homes to no avail so if they are sold to a KB it would appear that is their only option.

              As for posters investing in slaughter plants. I don't personally have any friends who are pro slaughter and are involved in the industry i.e. owning a plant or having money in one.

              Interesting to see how the take on this has now shifted from the slaughter plants are ALL owned by foreign companies who do not pay taxes..to they must be owned by people who defend them.

              Gosh..y'all sure do wag the dogs tail a whole bunch.
              Actually, I do too have solutions, and I've listed them many times:

              (1) Do not breed any horse who is not a superior specimen of whatever breed.

              (2) Do not breed any horse for whom there is little to no market or demand.

              (3) Do not condone or participate in practices, disciplines, show divisions, or entire industries known to break down young horses.

              (4) Petition breed associations to remove "incentives" for overproduction or production of inferior specimens by backyard breeders.

              (5) Eliminate tax deductions for horses as business assets across the board.
              (Yeah, I know you're gonna hate me, but . . .!)

              (6) Identify and publicize the names of the bottom-feeders who buy up horses under false pretenses and ship to the KB's. Make them unpopular. Make it social death in your horsey circles to sell to them. Make it equally difficult to sell to or buy from the known "collectors" who run a revolving door of abuse and neglect.

              (7) Provide alternatives and support networks for people who might be LEGITIMATELY forced to give up horses for financial reasons. This includes the option of humane euthanasia by your local vet without drama or judgementalism.

              (8) Publicize the overbreeding of horses and dogs among the Amish and apply some public pressure on them to stop creating humane crises with their output.

              Anyone want to add some?

              Reduced to its essence, the problem is this:

              Slaughter exists because certain people have horses they don't want;

              The only people who HAVE to own horses are people who WANT them;

              People need to WANT the horses they HAVE enough NOT to send them to slaughter.

              So here's the goal--EVERY HORSE A WANTED HORSE. Unrealistic? Sure. But what if we could get 80% there, or even 90%?
              Hell, right about now I think 70% is a worthy goal. But to get there, we really DO have to eliminate the "livestock mentality" from the equation. If that eliminates certain classes of owners, who think of horses as nothing but a profit-center, well so be it. The horses would certainly agree!
              Last edited by Lady Eboshi; May. 25, 2013, 09:15 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                For gosh sakes..go to their web site and also google rendering euthanized or contaminated horses...that is how I found it. Didn't even know they were against rendering..but they claim residue goes into products from brushes to hides..don't know if that is true...

                I had a horse strangle herself. She went into the field...I had one with a broken hip..he had to be rendered due to chemical contamination. My cost was $200 for the one hour trip for the vet..around $350. for sedation and euthanization and then rendering pick up was $92 cents per pound.

                You may live in a special area but I can assure you...Seattle washington is very expensive as is Scottsdale or Phoenix
                This "disposal" argument is completely ridiculous! EVERY SINGLE HORSE that dies of natural or accidental causes in the USA is NOT disposed of through a SH by definition! SH's are NOT a factor in the "disposal problem." The one simply has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

                If the horse is shipped to Canada or Mexico for slaughter, by definition it is able to stand up on the truck and is not visibly diseased. It is well-documented what the plants want, and we've long since established in this thread what kind of (well-fed, good condition, younger) horse it is. So put this silly argument to bed!

                Comment


                • Lady E...you continue top dodge the question. What is your solution that will deal with the disposal or placement or rehoming of 100,000 horses over the nest 10 months>

                  As for horses with eyes gouged out????? oh..kinda like every Priest molests little boys or girls...

                  Guess you were not aware that horses such as those would not be allowed into Canada..as they could not pass the vet certificate. Not to say that some haven't..but the numbers returned started to be high and when the truckers discovered they would be caught and then banned from ever shipping into Canada..any livestock...the numbers have diminished.

                  The ages on average are 6 and older.... Again..that is not to say younger horses are not in the shipment but they tend NOT to have the necessary weight...hence feedlots...which are doing a great job.

                  great lawsuits by outing KB'ers..It is NOT against the law. Period. I would hope they would sue and close down every forum that outed them..because there is nothing to charge them with...

                  I guess I will have to ask..WHAT ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS.????

                  Since none of you have any except for the same old same old that resolves nothing...we will have to wait until Angela Freda proves us all wrong and slaughter is stopped in the U.S. due to passports...or at least slaughter in Canada with U.S. horses is stopped.

                  I look forward to the tax payer response when they can not afford computers for schools but they can afford to feed 100,000 horses...
                  The Elephant in the room

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                    Lady E...you continue top dodge the question. What is your solution that will deal with the disposal or placement or rehoming of 100,000 horses over the nest 10 months>

                    As for horses with eyes gouged out????? oh..kinda like every Priest molests little boys or girls...

                    Guess you were not aware that horses such as those would not be allowed into Canada..as they could not pass the vet certificate. Not to say that some haven't..but the numbers returned started to be high and when the truckers discovered they would be caught and then banned from ever shipping into Canada..any livestock...the numbers have diminished.

                    The ages on average are 6 and older.... Again..that is not to say younger horses are not in the shipment but they tend NOT to have the necessary weight...hence feedlots...which are doing a great job.

                    great lawsuits by outing KB'ers..It is NOT against the law. Period. I would hope they would sue and close down every forum that outed them..because there is nothing to charge them with...

                    I guess I will have to ask..WHAT ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS.????

                    Since none of you have any except for the same old same old that resolves nothing...we will have to wait until Angela Freda proves us all wrong and slaughter is stopped in the U.S. due to passports...or at least slaughter in Canada with U.S. horses is stopped.

                    I look forward to the tax payer response when they can not afford computers for schools but they can afford to feed 100,000 horses...
                    My solutions are already outlined above, and I have asked everyone to chime in with theirs. Much more constructive, don't you think, than just flinging turds at each other and screeching?

                    If the KB's stopped shipping tomorrow, those 100,000 would go the way of the other several million per year--their owners would not ship them and do something else. Just like all the rest of us do. Yes, breeding production is falling, which is a good thing, and it will fall more. Eventually, the price of horses will RISE again until only people who can afford horses have them.

                    I've been watching this issue come and go since the mid-70's, when KB's were paying more than the riding-school operators and private owners could. The price was as much as a dollar a pound, and suddenly overnight you couldn't even STEAL a horse because the KB's had swept up the population. We can reverse-engineer the opposite in a very few years here by reducing breeding production.

                    Comment


                    • Every horse has an owner.
                      If the killbuyers don't buy them at auction, other buyers who are bidding against the killbuyers will.
                      Or the horse will no sale and go back home with owner that consigned it.

                      The 100,000 horses who shipped this past year to slaughter will not be returned.

                      Simply 100,000 horses that would have sold to slaughter buyers will sell to someone else, or not at all.

                      That the buyers demand for a verifiably clean product is such a problem is interesting. We've known that the EU wanted to know what drugs the horses had been given for YEARS now. But the dealers and the plants thought they could fake their way through the EID and no one would be the wiser.
                      Nothing like waiting til the night before it's due to start the term paper!
                      Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                      http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                        Lady E...you continue top dodge the question. What is your solution that will deal with the disposal or placement or rehoming of 100,000 horses over the nest 10 months>

                        ...
                        There are not 100k excess horses. There is a demand for horsemeat for human consumption that 100k horses fills. You could buy all 100k horses and all that would do is raise the price of horses, and provide more incentive for the breeders to breed more. The SHs only slaughter the number of horses needed to meet the demand for horsemeat. Do you really believe that if someone bought all 100k horses, the SH would shut down and people wouldn't eat horse meat?

                        That's why it is a fallacy that if you buy horses bound for slaughter you are saving 1 horse from slaughter...you are saving THAT horse from slaughter, but another one takes it's place to meet the demand by the Horsemeat dealers for a certain number of pounds of horse meat.

                        The SH's slaughter just what is needed to meet the demand for horsemeat. How many horses are available/alive has nothing to do with the number killed, but only changes the price per pound.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oldernewbie View Post
                          Fairfax, I've just scoured the USDA web site and can't find the reference you made about rendering euthanized horses. Could you tell me where you found it?

                          I did find many helpful links to companies and organization who will help with euthanization and disposal.
                          I couldn't find it either. I did however, find this document. On the USDA website.

                          http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/FT...edings2008.pdf

                          I didn't read the whole thing but the parts on disposal of dead horses seemed to favor the use of rendering for disposal.

                          I also found a list compiled by HSUS that listed individual state laws and resources for euthanasia and disposal of carcasses. For the record I can't stand the HSUS. I think they're mostly a scam that takes in a huge amount of money and doesn't help many animals. That being said this is simply a list of laws and resources. I didn't go through all 50 states but a quick glance tells you that most states allow for burial or rendering.
                          "Some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple” – Barry Switzer

                          Comment


                          • And you don't listen to solutions offered - you have your ears covered going lalalalalalalalalalalala
                            So how's that working for you??

                            Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                            Lady E...you continue top dodge the question. What is your solution that will deal with the disposal or placement or rehoming of 100,000 horses over the nest 10 months>

                            As for horses with eyes gouged out????? oh..kinda like every Priest molests little boys or girls...

                            Guess you were not aware that horses such as those would not be allowed into Canada..as they could not pass the vet certificate. Not to say that some haven't..but the numbers returned started to be high and when the truckers discovered they would be caught and then banned from ever shipping into Canada..any livestock...the numbers have diminished.

                            The ages on average are 6 and older.... Again..that is not to say younger horses are not in the shipment but they tend NOT to have the necessary weight...hence feedlots...which are doing a great job.

                            great lawsuits by outing KB'ers..It is NOT against the law. Period. I would hope they would sue and close down every forum that outed them..because there is nothing to charge them with...

                            I guess I will have to ask..WHAT ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS.????

                            Since none of you have any except for the same old same old that resolves nothing...we will have to wait until Angela Freda proves us all wrong and slaughter is stopped in the U.S. due to passports...or at least slaughter in Canada with U.S. horses is stopped.

                            I look forward to the tax payer response when they can not afford computers for schools but they can afford to feed 100,000 horses...
                            The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                            H. Cate

                            Comment


                            • Thank you for the excellent explanation.

                              Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
                              There are not 100k excess horses. There is a demand for horsemeat for human consumption that 100k horses fills. You could buy all 100k horses and all that would do is raise the price of horses, and provide more incentive for the breeders to breed more. The SHs only slaughter the number of horses needed to meet the demand for horsemeat. Do you really believe that if someone bought all 100k horses, the SH would shut down and people wouldn't eat horse meat?

                              That's why it is a fallacy that if you buy horses bound for slaughter you are saving 1 horse from slaughter...you are saving THAT horse from slaughter, but another one takes it's place to meet the demand by the Horsemeat dealers for a certain number of pounds of horse meat.

                              The SH's slaughter just what is needed to meet the demand for horsemeat. How many horses are available/alive has nothing to do with the number killed, but only changes the price per pound.
                              The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                              H. Cate

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
                                It's 250.00 here for euth and disposal.
                                Where does USDA say that? Link please. They have NO authority over burying/rendering horses. And people MUST have some plan for a horse needing euth or disposal if it colics and dies or breaks a leg.
                                Agreed. I can't imagine that the cost for euth and disposal is out of the reach for most horse owners. Granted I only have one horse but between board, shoes, and routine vet care (not to mention the non-routine) I spend easily $750.00/month on my horse. If I'm actively taking lessons or doing a couple small schooling shows I can push that up over $1000.00/month easily. And I'm no where near the top of the $$$ scale for keeping a horse. At $250.00 it's less than one month of board. Even at the high end of the scale, if I can afford a horse, I can afford to have it humanely destroyed if I have to.

                                The "cost of euthanasia/disposal is so expensive there is no alternative except to send the horse to slaughter" is what I call a spurious argument. That would be a nice way of saying "I'm calling b*** s***".
                                "Some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple” – Barry Switzer

                                Comment


                                • In the other thread I mentioned what may be the most expedient idea of them all--reduce the demand for horsemeat by educating the consumers as to precisely what and whom it is they're eating. Given the EU and Japan standards for purity of meat, I suspect the market'll fall through the floor. Perhaps this education effort is where anti-slaughter activists should be focusing their efforts.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by mswillie View Post
                                    Agreed. I can't imagine that the cost for euth and disposal is out of the reach for most horse owners. Granted I only have one horse but between board, shoes, and routine vet care (not to mention the non-routine) I spend easily $750.00/month on my horse. If I'm actively taking lessons or doing a couple small schooling shows I can push that up over $1000.00/month easily. And I'm no where near the top of the $$$ scale for keeping a horse. At $250.00 it's less than one month of board. Even at the high end of the scale, if I can afford a horse, I can afford to have it humanely destroyed if I have to.

                                    The "cost of euthanasia/disposal is so expensive there is no alternative except to send the horse to slaughter" is what I call a spurious argument. That would be a nice way of saying "I'm calling b*** s***".
                                    I agree, I was by no means rich, When My old TB who I had to put down 2 years ago was retired, I kept him on PAsture board at a nice local place,
                                    Euth was 300 dollars, and disposal was 80 dollars.
                                    Most people spend far more on tack and accessories and supps etc.
                                    It is not the average horse owner, that is BS I agree. It is the TB and QH breeders, who Cull their stock.
                                    And from what I am reading on the other thread, the EU is going to be demanding clean product, And healthy product.
                                    Somethings gotta give somewhere.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      Lady E,
                                      Your list of so-calld solutions is beyond a joke. In fact, your list is down-right scary. You sound as id you belong in China or cold-war Russia. You do not get to 'tell' people how they will run their lives! Seriously, your diatribe is making my eyes bleed!!!
                                      So many of the sisterhood can't see what is happening, again, small steps at a time. The hsus and other AR groups are supporting vets as they obtain their educations. When the vets enter practices, they are committed to the hsus mantra that NO HORSE may be euthanized unless to end suffering (near death). So, you see the ads on CL and they are growing in number.
                                      Vet practices in the U.S. are consolidating. More and more practices are owned by fewer and fewer 'vets' and they subscribe to and owe their education to the hsus folks. That's part of the plan, so just try and have an otherwise healthy horse euthed. You will be surprised at how difficult it has become.
                                      I find it disheartening that so many posters on this forum must be schooled by FF, when he is a proud Canadian. What happened to the proud American? As we pause tomorrow to honor our heroes, many posters on this board should keep their mouths shut and simmer in their shame!!!

                                      Comment


                                      • 7A, whatever anti-psychotic meds you're on, up the dose. Seriously.

                                        I can only conclude that you and Leo make your living somehow in the slaughter trade and are terrified it's going to disappear. That's the only possible explanation for your diatribes.

                                        My suggestions above are all free-market based, and it is my hope they will be thought about and ultimately implemented by many of the thousands of people who are reading, and will read this thread.

                                        As for vets, the AAEP at this time actually favors slaughter, which I find shameful considering how it is conducted, and they are certainly not getting any of their other guidelines from HSUS. If that were true, every veterinary teaching hospital in this country would have to shut down.

                                        Name-calling, un-American slurs and attempting to discredit my opinion by playing the RARA card is the last resort of one who can bring no further valid, rational argument to this thread.

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          Did I call you unamerican? Seems your sensitivity to my reference to 'many posters on this board' might have caused you to reflect and seek redemption. If that is the case then I welcome you to the crowd who believe slaughter is a necessary piece of the puzzle. I support you in your quest to add it to your list!!!

                                          Comment

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