• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Feds just raided AC4H

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • and remember this is what is reported to the IRS. So you also have to rely on the reporting person being accurate . How many donations dont show on the books?

    Comment


    • I'd been wondering where TF all those minis were coming from that go through Camelot; that "breeding program" is just SO wrong.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hippolyta View Post
        "expenses" also include whatever salary they choose to pay themselves.
        Salaries should be reported on the 990.
        "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

        My CANTER blog.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by uphill View Post
          Does anyone think that KB who signed off on the paperwork ( link provided in posts above) should be prosecuted for lying...how can he say horses haven't had drugs for 60 days or not been exposed to communicable diseases...when he owns them for a week!

          There's a loophole in the paperwork. If you look at the canadian documents that the dealers/shippers sign, it says "in the last 60 days or while I've owned the horse" and "to the best of my knowledge"
          "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

          My CANTER blog.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
            Salaries should be reported on the 990.
            Yes, if they are considered "salary".
            There are plenty of ways around that: "reimbursements"- for mileage, for items supposedly purchased with private money for which the nonprofit reimburses them for, etc.
            And, as others mentioned, rent. Is the nonprofit "renting" office space in a home? Is it "renting" land, vehicle useage, equipment useage, etc., from a private party?
            Or repaying "advertising (including computer usage for posting)", feed or bedding expenses at a higher rate than the original purchase?

            And of course, it would be interesting to see who actually owns the vehicles, etc. they use for personal use; them or the nonprofit? Quite common to see nonprofits buy nice vehicles which end up mostly used for other purposes.

            It is quite easy to bury payments to onself in the expense catagory with a little imagination.

            Comment


            • double post. Why won't it delete??

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sassysmom View Post
                and remember this is what is reported to the IRS. So you also have to rely on the reporting person being accurate . How many donations dont show on the books?
                anyone who has seen the tools available to auditors (state Fed etc) knows that they are very adept at finding the money.

                Looking at the tax returns my guess is that the IRS wants their cut - ie there is no income going to the owner of the org so how can she live?

                So my guess is tax fraud. and they dont play nice.

                i have a side question: how can they be paying upwards of 50,000 a MONTH to purchase horses? how many horses would that buy?

                also look at the feed bills... around 3 k a month. how many horses would that feed?

                Comment


                • also, no wonder there are so many rescues = 800k a year is not chump change!

                  Comment


                  • Yeah but how many are bringing in that kind of money? And they way ac4h operates, most of that money goes straight out the door again to the brokers.
                    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                    My CANTER blog.

                    Comment


                    • Regarding minis, they're also just popular with people with small lots or who've never had horses, have little kids, think a "pony" would be cute, or worse figure they can get a few, breed them because a baby would be cute...and then find out they're not dogs with hooves. I would guess AC4H has a lot because they basically CAN'T get shipped--they're not worth gas it costs to haul them. People dump 'em and even the KBs have a limited market for them. But except maybe a few, I would bet the same kind of people would be taking them from AC4H--"Aw, it's cute, let's save it....oh crap."
                      Author Page
                      Like Omens In the Night on Facebook
                      Steampunk Sweethearts

                      Comment


                      • how many horses would 50k purchase? assume each horse cost 250 that means they are buying 200 horses a month.... really? how are they feeding those 200 horses when all they have is one barn and only pay 2k in feed bills?

                        my guess is that that is where they are getting their money for living expenses and hopefully the IRS is bright enough to figure that out.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                          how many horses would 50k purchase? assume each horse cost 250 that means they are buying 200 horses a month.... really? how are they feeding those 200 horses when all they have is one barn and only pay 2k in feed bills?
                          That's the thing - if the program works exactly as advertised (I'm making no comment, but let's assume all the money donated is going where it's supposed to, etc), this isn't necessarily so out there. They are getting money donated to them to buy horses who are housed and being fed by the brokers. Once it's all in, they buy the horses in bulk (let's assume they're paying the full price they advertise on their site, so it's more like around $500-600 on average, and there are 20-30 horses on there per week). They only actually "own" the horses for a day or so while the pickups are getting organized - so there aren't really any care expenses associated with them.

                          Actual horses that the rescue actually owns that they actually have to feed number much fewer.

                          I'm trying to reserve judgement, but I do think there's a lot of confusion about this program, and just wanted to point out that even if it is above board and there's no question about where the money is going, you could conceivably see these kinds of expenses.

                          Now, it would be very easy, when dealing with those kinds of numbers and the unknown price markup and unknown arrangements between parties, for some of this money to end up where it's not supposed to end up. But that's for the FBI to figure out. In the meantime, CBI will just have to speculate.
                          "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                          My CANTER blog.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                            how many horses would 50k purchase? assume each horse cost 250 that means they are buying 200 horses a month.... really? how are they feeding those 200 horses when all they have is one barn and only pay 2k in feed bills?

                            my guess is that that is where they are getting their money for living expenses and hopefully the IRS is bright enough to figure that out.
                            The way I understand it from some of the "incidents" mentioned in the past is that they don't "buy" a "broker" horse until it has somewhere to go, immediately.

                            As I understood it, they post a horse, collect "donations", then when the horse finally has a place to go they "buy" it from the KB (because he doesn't want to deal with the people).
                            The horse leaves immediately, so there is little/no feed, etc. on the broker horses: only those in the "actual" rescue portion require that expense.

                            The ownership of the "broker" horses is what is puzzling: sometimes they say they buy them and resell to the new owner to keep the KB out of the mix.

                            However, when some people have complained about injury, etc., they were told ac4H never owns the horses, they are simply a listing service (for a small fee, of course) who transfers the $$ to the KB immediately, and the sale is actually between the KB and new owner, with the rescue simply an uninterested intermediary to the transaction. So which is it this time?

                            In addition, I would love to see their paperwork and how a rescue can also broker horses: I think the IRS and Feds may argue unrelated business income, which would be taxable.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                              As much as I hate to agree with Fairfax, there will be many ASB's with real identities that will never get pulled. She pulled them FOR the rescue group. I have horses out there that I've sold and AC4H's was one of my watches along with Camelot. More Saddlebreds will be dead is what I see, unless they go to the Amish. I will with hold my judgement until ALL the facts are presented.
                              Dont think the Amish are great animal lovers. Isnt it conveniet that NH is located where it is: in the middle of Amish country. When they're through with them, they go to sale.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                i have a side question: how can they be paying upwards of 50,000 a MONTH to purchase horses? how many horses would that buy?

                                also look at the feed bills... around 3 k a month. how many horses would that feed?
                                Clearly, cough cough, 3K worth of feed takes care of 50K worth of horses.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
                                  Salaries should be reported on the 990.

                                  don't be silly. If they declare they're being paid a salary, they'd have to pay taxes on it. Now here's another thought. If they have no reportable income, do they also get welfare assistance or foodstamps?
                                  In an age when scientists are creating artificial intelligence, too many of our educational institutions seem to be creating artificial stupidity.—Thomas Sowell, Is Thinking Obsolete?

                                  Comment


                                  • 3K in feed? Oh yeah, right. They buy a couple hundred $$s worth of grain a month if that [usually only grain the old ones] and they buy moldy hay mostly at hay auctions. Big squares that they throw in hay feeders outside or shove down the chute under the barn. I can’t tell you how much mold I’ve peeled away from those bales.
                                    The horse I bet on was so slow, the jockey kept a diary of the trip.
                                    Henny Youngman

                                    Comment


                                    • For all the horses they are buying/trading/whatevs every month, are there really THAT many horses around to support this claim? Somewhere above, someone wrote ACHG (whatever) spent $81K in a month on horses. That's a lot of horses, even at $500 per. If they are buying for cheaper that's a lot MORE horses. There are that many horses going through the sales each and ever month? Or are the horses recycled back through, over and over?
                                      GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                                      Comment


                                      • I think recycling happens. I know of at least one pair of horses that showed up on the AC4H broker list multiple times and I've heard of other stories like that. And New Holland is a big auction, I've been out there once and there were quite a lot of horses there and it runs every week.
                                        The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
                                        Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.

                                        Comment


                                        • Sunridge, I know it's a shame that ASB may now slip through the cracks, but the reason they were being pulled out was because there was a market for them - Save the poor Saddlebred! As someone else already pointed out there are eyes at NH and Sugarcreek at every auction - they just didn't have this incestous relationship with the KB.

                                          As I think about it this may be a case of messiah complex on the part of AC4H more than fraud with forethought. It's too easy to start getting grey with your books if you think you are doing the "right thing". Or not. Needless to say the IRS plays hardball. They only bring flowers to your funeral.
                                          Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                                          Incredible Invisible

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X