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SO.... How to figure out if your gelding is completely gelded? O.o

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  • SO.... How to figure out if your gelding is completely gelded? O.o

    Not sure if this goes here, horse care, or possibly the breeding forum?

    If you don't feel like reading my excessively long narrative of this morning I was wondering how you/ the vet can tell if a horse was completely gelded of if perhaps they "missed some" he is a crypt etc. also if he was unsuccessfully gelded can he impregnate mares?

    So today I had a rather.. eh, eventful morning. As some of you know the horse I had been leasing was recently moved back to her farm because I moved my horse somewhere else. Anyway she's been turned out with the "unused" horse herd mainly retirees , and Gus, the most freaking adorable arab gelding. Well I believe Mr. Gus is about 6ish? definitely less than 8 years old. Owners had him for about 3ish years. He was emaciated and in terrible condition when she got him I rode Gus for her last summer and he's a fun ride but usually a handful and a bit of a trouble maker, I'd hate to call him bad, more like mischievous and naughty. He can be a bit hot and we've had a few instances of him acting completely unruly on the ground from time to time. (rear, strike, buck etc.) but only once or twice. I'd like to add that he is NOT handled too regularly and my riding him was a bit intermittent. I do think being handled daily would help him tremendously.

    Onward to today, I find him and mare I leased laying down in the field so I go cuddle with her for a bit and put on her halter when he stands up, I didn't think about it a whole lot and just said hey gusmo and went about scratching Jazz. So I'm squatting and he comes up behind/beside me and strikes me I was like WTF?? He's usually really sweet and aside from our instances above ok to handle so I tell myself he got bit by a fly or it was an accident. either way I moved and figured I'd just chill with them until Jazz wanted to wake up (she was still laying down) Well gus starts nickkering and gets "excited" and is basically drooling on jazz and shoving her, and chewing on her, so I shoo him off and he rolls his head and sort of pops up but moves back. Now I'm watching him really close, she stands up and i'm like okkkk time to go, she's peeing everywhere and he's all over her and I smack him with the lead line and start to leave, well he basically glues himself to her and rubs on her the whole way in (still showing off his manhood). Not such a big deal.

    Here's were the eventfulness comes in, it seems like he realizes that we're getting close to the gate and starts to bite Jazz. I try to protect her and chase him off, he WILL NOT go away! He keeps running in circles trying to attack her and I think come after me but I was pretty quick on the lead line and kept her between us, eventually I'm like this is crazy I have to let her go because he's going to hurt one of us, but I can't get to the lead snap before he get's in-between her and I and looks like he's going to stomp me so I just let go and bailed. He immediately turns away from me and herds her back into the other field (we're in like a 30acre pasture) The whole time he had his ears pinned and teeth out and giving me "stud rolls", rearing and striking. I have NEVER EVER seen a horse react quite like him. I've also NEVER seen this kind of insanity from him. I did go back out with a lunge whip and successfully bring the mare in but he was definitely hit quite a few times in the process and not too happy. I'm just at a total

    I am going to talk to the owner and see about separating them and putting him into a training program of some kind.
    Saddle Tree Acres

  • #2
    Well, the answer to your actual question is a hormone test.

    However, I've seen that sort of behavior from geldings AND mares who are an alpha personality (which sounds like this guy is) who have gotten really attached to a new horse. It also sounds like this guy has your number, going back out with the lunge whip was the correct thing to do.

    But yes, sometimes when they get so manic over another horse, the easiest solution for everyone involved is just separation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Not to that degree but I've had totally gelded geldings fall in love with mares/fillies and act all bad when separated. But this one takes the cake! There must be something going on. I've heard that some Arab show geldings aren't gelded all the way to give them 'presence' in the ring. I can't spell the name of the little 'organ' which is left to bring on the silliness. Epi-something. Don't laugh at me if I got this wrong, I heard it from Arab owners. ??
      GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

      Comment


      • #4
        GR24, it's called the epididymus and the term is "proud cut".

        Here's more info... http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/Docum...dcut-apr09.pdf

        We have a "gelding" at our barn that presented with behavior similar to the OP's experience. He was examined and found to have a testicle that never dropped. He is now pastured only with geldings and we haven't had a problem since then.

        ETA - if I understood the OP, the gelding struck? As in with his front feet? That is seriously dangerous behavior that needs to be corrected immediately. As I've read, the back feet can hurt you, but the front feet can KILL you.
        Alis volat propriis.

        Comment


        • #5
          A friend with a 'gelding' was astonished when his horse mounted a mare being ridden by another friend on a trail ride. Horse was 4 or 5 at the time if memory serves (and rider of mare was equally astonished).

          It was major surgery to go in and get that testicle but it was nevertheless successful 'brain surgery.' It ended a variety of issues that turned out to be, well, hormonal rather than training.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            I had lovey dovey foolish geldings as well but none that have tried to take me out and run the horse I was handling off. IMO horses must always have manors around people, and it's totally totally unacceptable to be a bully when I'm in the field (that's my job haha)

            Will talk to the owner and see about a hormone test. I feel like him being proud cut on purpose is definitely a possibility. He's freaking gorgeous with an awesome mane and tail and papered out to wazoo. I know he was originally suppose to be something like a 15,000 show horse horse but the owner had 20-30 horses got way in over her head went bankrupt and the horses were all neglected which is how current owner acquired him for something ridiculous like 500.

            Originally posted by goneriding24 View Post
            Not to that degree but I've had totally gelded geldings fall in love with mares/fillies and act all bad when separated. But this one takes the cake! There must be something going on. I've heard that some Arab show geldings aren't gelded all the way to give them 'presence' in the ring. I can't spell the name of the little 'organ' which is left to bring on the silliness. Epi-something. Don't laugh at me if I got this wrong, I heard it from Arab owners. ??
            Saddle Tree Acres

            Comment


            • #7
              I'll second the hormone test. It is -very- rare for horses 'not to be gelded all the way'. It'll rule out excess testosterone and will catch the rare instances where something went wrong with the gelding.

              Some horses geldings will act studdy all of their life because it becomes a learned behavior. The behavior he was displaying obviously isn't safe for you, but it sounds like stallion behavior when they want to breed (some will bite the mare they're breeding) OR when they're trying to herd their mare away from something.

              If he's going to be that bad, I wouldn't want my mare in the pasture with him. it isn't safe for you to be going in there if he's going to strike at you.
              Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

              Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

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              • #8
                Horomone test AND a belly ultrasound. You really want both.

                While it's rare for them to not be cut all the way, they do exist, and get passed off as a gelding when in fact the other one was "left in there" and the horse actually needed more than the usual.

                I can tell you from experience they are physically impossible to detect. You can have a "gelding" that looks like a gelding "down there" and on even -aggressive palpataion, you'd swear was a gelding. And even has "high" test but isn't "oh, this is a stallion"... but yep, there's still a small little somewhat functional teste high in the belly that needs to come out.

                I would never personally settle for just the horomone test.
                "The nice thing about memories is the good ones are stronger and linger longer than the bad and we sure have some incredibly good memories." - EverythingButWings

                Comment


                • #9
                  Where did this gelding come from? (Where was the bankrupt owner located?) I ask because I know people in the Arab world and may be able to figure out the horses story...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've see a gelding (that never exhibited this behavior before) do what you describe. He savaged a mare that was in with him. I have also seen geldings try to breed mares.

                    I don't believe in mixed herds for that reason. There is no way in hell I would put your mare back out with him. The chance of him hurting her is too high. (and hurting you, or anyone else)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sounds to me as if the mare was in season, depending on when the stallion was gelded and if the Epididimi was removed (the bit that makes the testosterone) and also if the horse was a breeding stallion before he was gelded would all account for this behaviour. However, if the horse is in a boarding facility, and it sounds as though it is, then the gelding should be removed from mares as he will always be "riggy" and protective when a mare is in season. If the horse was gelded late (after about 2-3) or if the Epididimi was retained, cut proud (to make them more firey) then this behaviour will not go away whatever is done. Hormone tests will confirm being cut proud but why spend the money on a horse that is not yours?

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Thanks for all of the replies! First off mare is not mine or the gelding and they are kept on their own farm, I really really doubt that the owner would/ could keep him separated from mares. Well I guess she could but only with more work for her which isn't going to happen. I feel like I can nag her into a hormone test pretty easily but the expense of a ultrasound will most likely rule that option out (she may if he came back in the sketchy 101-200 zone)

                        I'm not sure if she home from riding yet but we're definitely talking about it. I can take him on when properly equipped and knowing what his possible behaviors are but I don't think it would end we'll for her to try and get mare herself (i'm a quick 20something and she's had knee surgery and isn't exactly quick or nimble)

                        I really really didn't want to turn Jazz(mare) back out but I don't think he'll hurt her, he only got one good bite in earlier and after he ran her off he was quite and nice with her. She is in season and a bit of a hussy as well as a low on the pecking order horse. (there is one dry-ish lot, with a horse in it and i didn't know why so didn't want to disturb him and the other has a gelding that's an absolute Ass and would try to kill her, he's always a jerk) so basically i'm sure he'll have his way with her but I doubt it will be a big ordeal... as far as, as calm as possible goes. :/

                        no idea how old he was when gelded will try to find out, and I'm also not sure where he came from can also find that out. I did find an old e-mail and he wasn't entirely emaciated, just very poor (not really excusable either way) I would think it was within a 3 hour radius of chattanooga TN
                        Saddle Tree Acres

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No testicles, 1/2 a testicle, 5 testicles.... Doesn't matter. It's unacceptable behavior and should be treated as such.
                          I have a studdy gelding. He's in an all boy herd bc he mounts the ladies. He also displays to other studdy geldings. When I first got him, his favorite manipulative display was to blow you over using his shoulder, or to shake his head and threaten to strike.
                          He knows not to behave like a giant Rico Suave when I'm in the picture. Why? Because he knows I will turn into the demon b*tch mare from hell on bath salts (for the two seconds it takes to put the ballz back in the jar on the mantle ;-) )if he pulls that nonsense with me.
                          Get a whip, or a lead with a popper, or a manure fork... Volleyball trophy (kidding).... Whatever keeps you safe that you can wield with accuracy so you arent putting out any eyeballs. 2 seconds. No more. Any more reprimand than 2 seconds is just a person having a tantrum. 2 seconds is all it takes to make a point.
                          www.destinationconsensusequus.com
                          chaque pas est fait ensemble

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I had an internet friend once with a gelding whose hormone levels indicated he was a rig, but ultrasound said he was not. Somehow her vet figured out the horse's adrenal glands were manufacturing excess testosterone. Rare, but possible.

                            Anyway - yikes! Definitely wouldn't let this guy near any more ladies.
                            I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
                              No testicles, 1/2 a testicle, 5 testicles.... Doesn't matter. It's unacceptable behavior and should be treated as such.
                              I have a studdy gelding. He's in an all boy herd bc he mounts the ladies. He also displays to other studdy geldings. When I first got him, his favorite manipulative display was to blow you over using his shoulder, or to shake his head and threaten to strike.
                              He knows not to behave like a giant Rico Suave when I'm in the picture. Why? Because he knows I will turn into the demon b*tch mare from hell on bath salts (for the two seconds it takes to put the ballz back in the jar on the mantle ;-) )if he pulls that nonsense with me.
                              Get a whip, or a lead with a popper, or a manure fork... Volleyball trophy (kidding).... Whatever keeps you safe that you can wield with accuracy so you arent putting out any eyeballs. 2 seconds. No more. Any more reprimand than 2 seconds is just a person having a tantrum. 2 seconds is all it takes to make a point.
                              This. This, this and maybe a lot of this too!
                              Originally posted by dizzywriter
                              My saddle fits perfectly well. It might be a little tight around the waist, but I take care of that with those spandex things.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I've known a fair number of geldings, castrated later in life, many having been used for breeding purposes before castration. Not a one was overly 'studdy' post-castration.

                                So when I hear of references to 'studdy' geldings I am always going to think they have a retained testicle that was never removed. For sure aggressive behavior should not be tolerated- it shouldn't be in stallions either- but just sayin' there's an explanation for the behavior.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  It sounds like he was either cut late and retained some studdish behavior or is proud cut. A hormone test will tell you if he's proud cut or not, it takes a couple of days to get back and is pretty accurate.

                                  The rubbing/shoving he was doing to your mare is behavior that stallions exhibit prior to mounting a mare which can definitely be dangerous (and is obviously completely unacceptable behavior) if you're leading said mare and the horse is trying to mount her. If you can't separate your mare from this horse in turnout, carry a long longe whip with you when you go to catch her and be careful!
                                  Last edited by future vet; Apr. 28, 2013, 09:12 PM.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    What Petstorejunkie said but ONLY if you can really be the Alpha. Do not try this if you are alone on the farm, have back-up close by.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I dont know... I think some geldings act studdy with mares even when they test out as totally geldings.

                                      I had a crossbred gelding who "loved" the girls! He looked and acted totally like a gelding away from mares. But put him in turnout with them and he would act studdish. Herded, guarded, mounted and even "bred" a mare. Interestingly, he would pick out one mare for his attentions and the others in his group were of no interest even when in heat. And when "his" mare left permanently, he selected another to devote himself to! Happily, he did not get physically aggressive with humans, although he would get hard to catch for others.
                                      Was happy when I was able to change stables and he was with an all-gelding herd. No problems!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        My gelding tried to mount ME in the field one time. He was out with a blanket on, and I was reaching in front of him to unbuckle the front. He had his head on my shoulder, and sort of nibbled my shoulder/back. He's a snuff/wuffer kind of guy and so I thought he was just doing that. Next thing I know I feel his front legs start to lift and him get heavier in me. I whipped back and unleashed my best Satan impression and he quickly backed off. But I was kind of freaked out!

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