• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Emails needed ASAP--American Equine Summit, Horse Slaughter... and carriage horses???

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Emails needed ASAP--American Equine Summit, Horse Slaughter... and carriage horses???

    So it came to our attention that Equine Advocates in Chatham, NY is having their 2013 American Equine Summit this weekend. The topic is horse slaughter. http://equineadvocates.org/news.php?recordID=65

    What causes us concern is that Elizabeth Forel, of the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages, is a featured speaker. Ms. Forel repeatedly insists that carriage horses go to slaughter, when in fact they go to Blue Star, or to other private homes. The story of Billy (Bobby II Freedom) is one very rare example of a horse who left the industry and his *next* owners put him in a bad position (but he would never have gone to slaughter with his hoof number identifying him as a well-trained carriage horse). (You can read about him here:
    http://www.equiculture.org/nyc-posit...ent.aspx#Bobby and here: http://www.equiculture.org/forel-response.aspx

    Forel has repeatedly accused the carriage industry of having horses like Flash or Mattie "disappear" and go to slaughter, when in fact they were on vacation in Pennsylvania and are working today in NYC. These are some of the 60-70 horses she claims "disappear" off the rolls every year. Clearly, her methodology is wrong.

    Susan Wagner of Equine Advocates has been invited repeatedly over the past 15 years to see the stables in NYC so that she will at least stop lying about them. She has refused.

    The ban-the-carriages mentality of Equine Advocates and the Coalition to Ban Horse Drawn Carriages, on the belief that some carriage horses, somewhere, at some point, long after they have left the industry *might* go to slaughter (though they have no proof) is terribly retrograde, and smacks of the radical animal rights position that it would be better that horses were never born than face the possibility of suffering.

    In fact, it was this mentality, that horses were outdated and dispensable, that led to the massive, industrial slaughter of horses in the 50s and 60s. Today's progressive horse advocates know that solving the problem of slaughter and neglect doesn't just require legislation banning it, but requires good homes - and good training - for horses.

    That's why the most exciting and innovative horse welfare programs are those like CANTER and Re-Run and New Vocations (vocation = JOB), which place an emphasis on transitioning racehorses to riding horses by training them. Blue Star Equiculture's many programs also work to prevent slaughter, whether by teaching the public horsemanship and driving skills (broadening the activities people can do with horses and therefore increasing the number of homes where horses will be wanted--many people who cannot ride enjoy driving horses), providing a retirement home for horses, rescuing and training young horses in need (untrained horses are those most at risk) and training the next generation of teamsters, whose working horse homes are the most stable and able to fully care for their horses.

    For Equine Advocates to allow a one-sided, inaccurate and UNHELPFUL speaker without allowing the carriage industry, who is proactively working for the benefit of horses, is for them to deliberately block the kind of open discussion and exchange of ideas that produces real change for horses.

    Whatever your position on horse slaughter, I think most of us can agree that any serious, respectable discussion of it should be FACT-BASED and not ideology-driven. If you agree that FACTS and REAL-WORLD solutions should be given precedence and the Horse and Carriage Association of New York City, can you please email Equine Advocates at info@equineadvocates.org and ask that the HCANYC be allowed to have a representative at this "invitation-only" summit to rebut Elizabeth Forel's inaccurate claims about slaughter and carriage horses?

    It would also be helpful to email the panelists and ask them to ask Equine Advocates for a fair and balanced discussion by allowing a HCANYC representative to be there. (That would be me. I am also a co-founder of Blue Star Equiculture).

    I emailed and phoned Equine Advocates earlier in the week and asked them nicely if I could come. Not surprisingly, I have been ignored. (Lest anyone think that we're overreacting - I don't see anyone on the panel calling for a ban of all Thoroughbreds or of Quarter Horses or of other horse industries on the panel... I see a lot of thoughtful discussion about SOLUTIONS... except for Forel.)

    Thank you all.


    Christina Hansen, Communications Liaison, Horse and Carriage Association of New York City
    Last edited by thedrafthorse; Apr. 25, 2013, 02:00 PM.

  • #2
    I spoke with Dr. Patty Hogan, the featured speaker. She did not realize Forel was on the panel and was not happy about it, as she supports the NYC carriage horses. How can Equine Advocates hold a summit about horse slaughter and allow someone like Forel to speak, who would put well-cared for working horses out of jobs? Equine Advocates has still not responded for requests to allow a member of the Horse and Carriage Association of NYC to attend and refute Forel's lies. If possible, please send an email to info@equineadvocates.org, as well as to their PR representatives, susan@bangcollinspr.com or emily@bangcollinspr.com
    This is a matter of simple fairness.


    • #3
      You can also call Equine Advocates at 518-245-1599 and leave a message,


      • #4
        Maybe some phone calls to the PR people associated with the event will help them see that the picture without a carriage horse representative's input is unfair and unbalanced, and reflects poorly on them as PR people: Their numbers: Susan 917-991-9714 and Emily 518-771-3003 http://bangcollinspr.com/


        • #5
          All the NYC carriage horse people are asking for is fairness. Forel censors her own website and FB page so that her lies and accusations can't be corrected. They aren't asking that Equine Advocates not have Forel speak, just that they can give their viewpoint. This is supposed to a horse slaughter summit. What is Forel doing there in the first place?


          • #6
            E-mail sent.

            Originally posted by lolalola View Post
            All the NYC carriage horse people are asking for is fairness. Forel censors her own website and FB page so that her lies and accusations can't be corrected. They aren't asking that Equine Advocates not have Forel speak, just that they can give their viewpoint. This is supposed to a horse slaughter summit. What is Forel doing there in the first place?
            The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
            H. Cate


            • #7
              Email sent. Which do you think might be more effective, an email or phone call?


              • #8
                Thanks, Laura KY. If you can, do both, but one or the other is appreciated.


                • #9
                  For those on FB, you can also ask Equine Advocates to allow a representative of the Horse and Carriage Association of NYC to attend, most likely Thedrafthorse, Christina Hansen. https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Eq...19741951382556


                  • #10
                    E-mail sent, call placed and Facebook post made.


                    • #11
                      Well, Equine Advocates is deleting all FB posts referencing Forel and asking that a HCANYC rep attend the seminar. Guess they are just fine with censorship.


                      • #12
                        If you know anyone on the local newspaper or TV station, get the word to them as well that this woman is a Class-A Asshat and should not be quoted, validated, or otherwise egged on by the media in any way since anything she says is false.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                          If you know anyone on the local newspaper or TV station, get the word to them as well that this woman is a Class-A Asshat and should not be quoted, validated, or otherwise egged on by the media in any way since anything she says is false.
                          Thanx Lady! Lola also suggested that on our FB page, and I just sent the email - and I linked this page

                          Thank you to EVERYONE here who took the time to call or email!

                          Thank you also to everyone for brainstorming on our behalf, very much appreciated
                          VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC



                          • #14
                            Sent the following:

                            I certainly applaud your efforts in holding a Summit on the issue of horse slaughter, but I am perplexed as to why Elizabeth Forel would be invited to speak regarding the NYC carriage horses.

                            I understand that Equine Advocates is of the mindset that the NYC carriage horses should be banned (based on what facts, I have yet to hear), but I find it beyond disappointing that you would offer your audience such a one-sided presentation. Ms. Forel not only has zero hands-on, day-to-day experience with horses, but she has been caught in several out-and-out lies about the NYC carriage horses. Frankly, it makes the entire Summit suspect.

                            It would be far better for attendees to hear from both sides of the carriage horse issue and I urge you to allow supporters of the NYC carriage horse industry a chance to speak to the Summit attendees.
                            Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

                            "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)


                            • #15
                              I spoke with Dr. Patty Hogan, an old friend, who is one of the speakers at this event. She didn't realize Forel was on the agenda and wasn't happy about it, because she supports working horses. Meanwhile, I have been banned from posting on the Equine Advocates FB page.


                              • #16
                                Copying and pasting a post by Blue Star Equiculture this am because its relevant to us all.

                                If those of us who are horsemen and women can be censored and stifled by persons like E.Forel who frankly has no relevance nor the knowledge base to be considered an expert on any horse much less carriage horses , this industry the equine industry not simply the carriage horse trade is in great jeopardy.

                                From BSE.:

                                Do you remember this picture we posted a couple weeks ago of John from Poland. He is with his beloved mare Lisa who is now retired at BSE. Lisa and John spent 20yrs working together! TWENTY YEARS.....day in and day out....think about how many tourists from all over the world these two have brought joy too....and history and love! YES! LOVE!
                                https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...77036545_n.jpg John and Lisa

                                Do you know how much LOVE you actually have to have to do this job? For horses and humans. These guys do not make a lot of money....like the anti's would have you believe, they are at best hard working blue collar citizens.

                                When I say hard working ....I mean the last of their kind....working all day, everyday, with their horses in an urban environment...holding their small piece of the cities that the horses have rightfully earned....having been the ones who built the cities!

                                In the short time we got to know John we learned about how much he loves Lisa and his history working with horses. He grew up driving singles, pairs, fours or up to six BIG work horses farming in Poland. He is the epitome of a working horse man and anyone that loves driving or big horses, or sustainable agriculture would be proud to call him a friend!

                                At BSE we can tell you that Lisa is an amazing horse....she doesn't even have arthritis! Like Paddy (and our many other retired NYC carriage horses..) she is full of personality and love and wisdom! She STILL wants to go out and do stuff! She is accepting retirement...but we will have to find things for her to do...as she spends a lot of time longingly watching us work with the other horses.

                                This morning I learned that ALL of our pleas, and letters and polite requests, and demands for fair representation at the Summit on Equine Welfare at Equine Advocates in Chatham, NY were denied and erased. Obliterated really.....shut down and blocked.

                                We wrote to all the attendees and the board members and even the local papers asking for fairness that the carriage industry be given fair time at this summit to defend themselves against the rampant lies of them sending their horses to slaughter.

                                People like Susan Wagner, President of Equine Advocates would never let us speak about the horses....ever.....she undoubtedly hates us all and has made up stories about us...we are abusers, scum of the earth....and countless other things...all because we believe and support people like John....who along with every other driver in the city have NEVER been issued a citation EVER by ANY of the many agencies that oversee their stables and horses.

                                It is far to lucrative for the antis to protest in one of the most public places on earth! Raise thousands upon thousands of dollars and get unlimited attention by screaming ABUSE, CRUELTY, to an unknowing public that has largely forgotten the contribution that horses have made in building the city.

                                Susan Wagner, a former wall street exec. raises hundreds of thousands of dollars from her rich friends....friends like Peter Max....who did a famed piece of artwork about a carriage horse named Bobby 11 Freedom, that Susan claims was saved from slaughter after being dumped there by the carriage folks....even though the REAL story has been published over and over and shared with them...they will not share the truth...that, of course, will not raise money for them.

                                At BSE we have an incredibly hard time raising money and alot of it I believe is because our horse look so good....it is not so worrisome. We refuse to exploit peoples feelings for money....we could go on and on about the tragic stories some of these horses have and NONE of them would be the carriage horses....who are always the easiest, healthiest, most incredibly trained and amazing horses in our herd.

                                We prefer to share the hope and possibilities. But that hasn't gotten us the big dollars.....or the celebrities....most actually try to stay away from us as they do not want to get involved in the controversy with NYC.

                                So today AGAIN, we are living with the reality that the truth will be shut out....about our working class friends....they will be lied about ....and scorned and hated.... and it will be allowed at a Equine Welfare Summit, with top names in the field. (We have written to them too....) And Congressman.....

                                If these kinds of anti's are allowed to get away with this and shut this industry down....with ZERO evidence of any equine welfare issues....just because they want it that way....(by the way most are not even horse people....Susan Wagner herself only turns her horses out and leaves them to their own fantastical life....and we all know what a unhandled horse is like....) Of course she can afford it....but what about all the others that will need homes...once they lose their jobs...and all those that will go thru auctions and never have the opportunity of a job with these fine horseman...after all the carriage folks are the original rescuers...as most of their horses come thru auctions!

                                I could go on and on.....it is depressing....PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...stand with us here and at least ask that the carriage industry to allowed to speak for themselves!

                                Here is the site with info on the summit and who is attending....great folks like R.T. Finch...who also has't answered our requests...http://equineadvocates.org/news.php?recordID=65

                                Here is what Equine Advocates thinks about the carriage industry....nearly ALL slanderous and libelous propaganda all censored and edited in such as way as to scare you into supporting this loathsome cause of ending the livelihoods of men like John and all the others AND their horses! http://www.equineadvocates.org/issue...php?recordID=6

                                Here is the real story about Bobby 11 Freedom and all the other TRUTHS they do not want us to share or YOU to know....http://www.equiculture.org/nyc-position-statement.aspx
                                Now why would't Peter Max do a portrait of a REAL carriage horse in all their glory?! Isn't that far more beautiful?

                                To meet the drivers (who are family horsemen and women from all over the world!) and tour their stables and learn DIRECTLY from them what their horses lives are like....go here....

                                Here is a way to support BSE. In the event that you would like to support something positive and life affirming for horses, humans and mother earth....all Wall Street Exec., Celebrities, Trust funders and any other well off citizens...please do help build a future alongside our horses...where they belong...in our mission 100% of your donation goes to the horses.....it is our gift of gratitude to them for all they are and have been with us!
                                "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


                                • #17
                                  BTW I posted a simple question asking for equal time and wondering why E.Forel was considered an "expert" considering she has never even visited the stables ...of course just like Ms.Forels page fear trumps logic and it was censored.
                                  "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


                                  • #18
                                    What is Equine Advocates afraid of? Whenever there is censorship like that, it proves their argument won't stand up if challenged. What harm would it do to simply have a member of the HCANYC present when Forel speaks? Apparently they believe it would do a lot of harm indeed ....


                                    • #19
                                      I called as well.
                                      Can't hurt to bombard them a bit.

                                      Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                      Email sent. Which do you think might be more effective, an email or phone call?
                                      The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                                      H. Cate


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
                                        BTW I posted a simple question asking for equal time and wondering why E.Forel was considered an "expert" considering she has never even visited the stables ...of course just like Ms.Forels page fear trumps logic and it was censored.
                                        Because they can't support any of their arguments with FACTS.

                                        I urge EVERYONE to get involved in this issue. They are not, by their own admission, after just the NYC carriage horses. They are after YOUR horses, unless, of course, you keep them as they see fit (i.e., in a huge pasture, where the temperature never waivers from 75 degrees, the sun shines all day, there is a full moon every night, no danger to speak of [whether man-made or natural], no shoes or other "instruments of torture", and never having to work a day in their lives [which includes riding of any sort]).

                                        No horse owner, no matter your personal opinion about carriage horses in a city, can afford to sit idly by while radical anti-animal activists run roughshod over our relationship with our animals.

                                        A big thank you to everyone that has emailed, called, posted, etc. It is very much appreciated!
                                        Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

                                        "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)