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When is it justified to send a horse to the killer auction?

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  • #81
    I've been kind of trying to stay out of this one, at least on the pros and cons of the slaughterhouse, but I do want to say that it annoys me greatly that a so-called rescuer of one of the "New Jersey Saddlebreds" (who are a big scandal in the Saddlebred world)would "rescue" one of them only to want to have it put down. This person is NOT a rescuer - this person is an opportunist who wanted a good Saddlebred cheap. That type of attitude is NOT what is needed for ANY of the New Jersey Saddlebreds. They have all been through *quite* enough.

    Impromptu, you might want to think about letting ASHA know about this person. And if you know where the horse was adopted from, I'd let that organization know too.

    ______________
    "It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

    Comment


    • #82
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> See- i wouldn't do that. That to me makes no sense at all. Seeling off other animals to save one, I don't get it. I wouldn't go bankrupt to save a horse. No way, no how. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
      She didn't say "to save a horse" she said "to put it down rather than sending it to the meat auction".

      And I sincerely think that paying for euthanasia isn't going to bankrupt anyone. It may or may not be the best use of the money,but if $300 is goiing to bankrupt you, you business wasn't going to make it anyway.

      Trying to SAVE every "useless" horse CAN bankrupt you, but that is not what we are talking about.

      I can see circumstances in which I would donate a horse for medical research, do normal euthanasia, give it to the hunt for the hounds, or to the zoo, or even deliver it myself to the slaughter house (though I would have to be pretty desperate for that). But NO WAY would I send one through the meat auction.

      Janet
      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

      [This message was edited by Janet on May. 16, 2003 at 12:21 PM.]
      Janet

      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

      Comment


      • #83
        Ok, let me preface this by saying that I've never been in a position where I had to euthanize a horse of mine or of someone elses, and I have never been to a meat auction or a slaughterhouse. My actual personal experience with this subject is limited to nonexistant, since I only know what I've read. FWIW, I think that the underlying idea here is that a horse shouldn't have to go through unnecessary pain, no matter what the circumstances. I think that's a premise on which we all can agree. The problem lies in what we define as suffering and what we define as unnecessary. To me, any horse who is in deplorable conditions with no access to food or water, who is being whipped into "submission" by people and other horses alike, who stands on a crowded trailer for hours and is constantly at risk for injury, is suffering. I don't think that this could possibly be justified as necessary, no matter what the circumstances. Therefore, no horse should ever have to go through what has been described. No horse. EVER.

        But if you transport the horse yourself and are with it until it is humanely (my definition of humane is without any of the aforementioned unnecessary suffering) killed, by whatever method, it's a different story. That's not too much different from having the horse put down by a vet. Yes, it is different, and yes, I know some of you will disagree with me, but I think there is such a thing as humane slaughter, provided there is no unnecessary suffering. Just my 2 cents.

        *Disgruntled College Students Clique*

        Comment


        • #84
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
          I'm sure mistakes happen in the killing process which prolongs the suffering and fear of the horses...not every horse for certain...but one too many for me.
          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          It is also possible to make mistakes with euthanasia...

          My horse will NEVER see the inside of a slaughter house so long as I have control over him, which, god-willing, will be for the rest of his life.

          Old lesson horses and other horses who've put in their time and deserve quiet retirement and then euthanasia should get that. No way no how should they go to slaughter.

          Dangerous horses? Ship em.

          I would, however, like to see auctions abolished.

          I don't eat horse meat by choice. My horse won't go to slaughter because it offends MY sensibilities and I have other options available to me should i need to pursue them. I will not oppose the slaughter of horses, however, because there is a market for it just as there is a market for cattle. Legally, horses are livestock and if it's cruel and awful to slaughter them, then the same goes for cows.

          I think that shipping conditions could be improved. I think that there could be further regulations for the plants. I think that this applies to all livestock, NOT just horses.

          And I would rather see horses go through the slaughter-lines than see slaughterhouses abolished and thousands of ill-bred, unwanted horses stand around in pastures STARVING because they cannot be sold, there isn't enough feed for them, and the horse population became severely overpopulated.

          BC

          *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
          Lindsay & Chance
          "Success is relative to how well you stay
          on the horse."
          ^^^^Proud member of the DCSC!^^^^
          &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
          *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
          "Show me the back of a thoroughbred horse, and I will show you my wings."
          &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&

          Comment


          • #85
            How about instead of outlawing slaughter houses, make a law that they don't PAY for horses for meat, but perform a service. Any horse going thru an auction that is not sold, could be shipped by a regular commercial hauler to a slaughter house, and housed in small groups until killed. The slaughter house would still have to pay as much, but it would be for transportation and care, instead of purchase. This would eliminate much of the horse thefts as well, and may make it so people would put their lame/? horse down instead of getting the last few bucks out of them in exchange for the horses suffering & terror.

            Ok, probably won't work, but???

            Darlyn
            http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

            Are We Having Fun Yet?

            Comment


            • #86
              IMPROMPTU, please IM me or I will IM you over the weekend. I want to know who this lady is and what barn you are at. My family and I were very involved in that Saddlebred rescue and it makes me sick that someone would even consider shipping one of those horses- let alone ANY horse- to New Market.

              Tell her to bring him back to the SPCA. They will give him a comfortable place to live until he can be placed with someone who will actually love him.

              This makes me very angry and hurt... I basically want to throw up reading this after the ordeal that horse had to go through.

              - Lindsay -

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #87
                This whole thing is sickening, I really don't understand it at all.

                Will comment more later.

                -------------------------
                You can hitch a hackney to the Budweiser cart, but it wont make him a clydesdale
                -------------------------
                http://community.webshots.com/user/stainlesssteal
                No hugging dear. I'm British, we only show affection to dogs and horses.

                Comment


                • #88
                  LJD or Impromptu, what worries me is, did this person not sign a contract with the SPCA (or whoever the agent was) restricting what she could do with the horse??

                  I lost the thread of what happened to the NJ Saddlebreds at the point where a lot of them were dispersed to New York, so I never did find out exactly which agency was responsible for placing them for adoption later on.

                  ______________
                  "It's a thin line between a smart TB and a smart-@$$ TB."
                  "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    My 2 cents is for the people that think a bullet is a humane way to die. The horse has a very small brain, it is easy to miss the brain and shoot a horse without killing him.
                    At a barn where I boarded about 5 years ago there was an aged pony that was blind. It started going downhill and one day couldn't get up. The owner was a cop. He chose to "humanely" put an end to this aged pony's life with his revolver. He shot the pony FOUR times before he killed it. It was AWFUL.
                    I'd definetly call the Vet before I shot a horse, or asked someone else to shoot the horse, but if I HAD to have a horse shot, I'd tell them to aim for the heart, it's harder to miss.

                    Just remember, if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off.
                    ~Colleen
                    ~Colleen
                    www.ohiotrailriding.com/reflection.htm

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
                      How about instead of outlawing slaughter houses, make a law that they don't PAY for horses for meat, but perform a service. Any horse going thru an auction that is not sold, could be shipped by a regular commercial hauler to a slaughter house, and housed in small groups until killed. The slaughter house would still have to pay as much, but it would be for transportation and care, instead of purchase. This would eliminate much of the horse thefts as well, and may make it so people would put their lame/? horse down instead of getting the last few bucks out of them in exchange for the horses suffering & terror.

                      Ok, probably won't work, but???

                      Darlyn
                      http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

                      Are We Having Fun Yet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      I LIKE that idea. In fact, YOU HAVE MY VOTE!!

                      Just remember, if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off.
                      ~Colleen
                      ~Colleen
                      www.ohiotrailriding.com/reflection.htm

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        First I apologize in advance if I am re-stating what another poster has already said, I have not had the chance to read through each post yet. (Sorry for the length)

                        This is a really controversial issue that, unfortunately, mixes emotion with reality. Justification is the key word here, and I strongly believe that killing anything is not simply justifiable. I would agree that yes I would sooner put my own horse down through euthanasia than send him or her to the packing plant, however, that being said I am still a very strong believer in the saying "there is a time and place for everything" even if that does mean sending a horse to the "plant." Some horses belong there, most don't, but some do.

                        While I have a deep love for horses, I cannot allow my emotion to get the best of me, even in this subject. While I may not like the idea of it, the auction provides a service for owners with dangerous/unsalvageable horses, and it supplies a "meat-market" to other foreign countries where horse flesh is commonly purchased for the dinner table. While just the thought might churn your stomach, you must remember that it is a meal on someone else's table providing their family with life.

                        I am not advocating using the service, but ending this activity, though it may be heartbreaking to many of us as it continues, could quite frankly kill our horse market, period. What would happen if this service was no longer available, where would all the lame/unrideable/purely dangerous horses go? We can't ALL have pasture ornaments, and we can't ALL take on "save" rejects. Where would they all go? We couldn't euthanise every single horse out there, it simply would not be a feasible way of dealing with the excess horse population (the excess being the unwanted/bad/etc horses). There is a plant in our province that, I believe, slaughters nearly 10 000 horses/week. For one single province, that is a LOT of horses, where would they all go if not for this?

                        I love the horses I have and will never send them in that direction EVER. At the same time I am NOT willing to take on rejects (lame/permanently injured/or purely dangerous) horses simply to save them from that fate. I love them yes, but I cannot save every bloody horse in this world, and that is a fact of life I have accepted. Sometimes things aren't always good, wonderful and nice. There is always an ugly side to life.
                        Life is tough and then you die.

                        The unfortunate part is that there are always two sides to an issue, and this is one. With an excess of horses around (if slaughter ended) we would have way too many horses, not enough buyers, and thus horse prices would drop to all time lows, and there would be no market. There are other points to consider, but I'll stop rambling on.

                        In conclusion, I completely agree that the process in which horses are slaughtered (which includes the trailer ride to the slaughter house) should be revised in order to make the ordeal less tramatic and more humane for the poor animals.

                        "The greatest compliment that was ever paid me was when one asked me what I thought, and attended to my answer. " - Henry David Thoreau

                        * * * "To wherever it may lead." - Orlando Bloom (Legolas)
                        Quote for the week:

                        \"Never under-estimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.\" - Shirt Slogan

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CrossedWings:

                          We couldn't euthanise every single horse out there, it simply would not be a feasible way of dealing with the excess horse population (the excess being the unwanted/bad/etc horses). There is a plant in our province that, I believe, slaughters nearly 10 000 horses/week. For one single province, that is a LOT of horses, where would they all go if not for this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          Considering the fact that only about 25,000+/- horses are slaughtered in all of Canada annually, I'd have to say your figures are way off.

                          A decade or so, in the US, there were nearly 300,000 horses being slaughtered annually. The numbers are now 40,000+/- annually. I hardly see 260,000 horses being starved/neglected. So where are they? Breed registration figures in the past decade have actually increased dramatically, while numbers slaughtered have decreased drastically.

                          Slaughter is not being utilized as a solution to an overpopulation problem. Only around 1% (+/-) of the N. American horse population is slaughtered annually. There are slaughtered because people want to eat them and they are willing to pay for the meat, plain and simple. Population (over or under) has nothing to do with it, other than pricing based on both supply & demand. Simple economics.

                          Two Toofs
                          (formerly - but still - NDANO)

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            I have also heard of several times when the slaughter guy has outbid the regular owner/home/rescuer. That should never happen, if someone is willing to give a horse a home.

                            Darlyn
                            http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

                            Are We Having Fun Yet?

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd definetly call the Vet before I shot a horse, or asked someone else to shoot the horse, but if I HAD to have a horse shot, I'd tell them to aim for the heart, it's harder to miss.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Never would you aim for the heart over the brain.
                              The reason the brain is used is because it also knocks out the central nervous system, this way "HOPEFULLY" the feeling of pain is eliminated immediately. How about, the next time we see people thinking that they are cowboys and have no clue, we stop wasting time and call the vet!! I can't imagine that this many horseowners/horselovers can't even afford to euthanize their horse. Maybe it's time to take up a new hobby
                              Corner Stone Farm
                              Weeki Wachee,FL .Follow us on FB!

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                for clarification on numbers / weights - I am in the freight business. On a regular, weekly, week in and week out basis, 52 weeks out of every year, there is between 40,000 and 60,000 kgs of horse meat being shipped out of Pearson International airport on Air Canada / Air France and KLM.

                                That is "on the hoof" - meaning - it is dressed and in quarters, so it is not the entire horse - it is the 2 hind quarters and the 2 shoulder quarters.

                                Using the lower figure (40,000 kgs) that equates to 88,000 lbs. An average, living horse weighs in around 1200 lbs - in quarters - maybe 800lbs. That means that week in and week out there is a minimum of 110 horses being killed and shipped over to Europe by air freight and that doesnt even take into consideration the amount that is sent over by ocean freight in reefer (frozen) containers, nor the amount that gets sent over to Far East destinations. I know in some cases entire 747 freighters (with a payload of 98,000 kgs) have been chartered to ferry an entire plane load of live PMU foals (at about 250 kgs each, think about 390 foals per entire aircraft) over to Japan where the young flesh is considered an extreme delicacy, and they are slaughtered over there once they arrive before being consumed.

                                So - along the vein of what CrossedWings has posted - that means that 5720 horses per year are being slaughtered to send by air freight to Europe, easily the same amount or more to send by ocean freight (so now we are up to about 15,000 horses per year) let alone the full 747 charters that go on a few times per year of a couple thousand more in total. So think (on a very conservative basis) about 18,000 - 20,000 horses per year going our from Toronto ALONE, let alone the ones that go from Calgary and whatever US airports have rendering plants close by. I am now only guessing, but I would say across North America, it has GOT to be in the area of 50,000+ horses annually.

                                Where would all of these horses go if they didnt end up in the slaughter houses?

                                "Spot"

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spot:So think (on a very conservative basis) about 18,000 - 20,000 horses per year going our from Toronto ALONE, let alone the ones that go from Calgary and whatever US airports have rendering plants close by. I am now only guessing, but I would say across North America, it has GOT to be in the area of 50,000+ horses annually.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Read above - where it states that the current approx. figures were for US, then Canada, then the combined total for both.

                                  According to the USDA in 2002 in the US, there were 42,312 in US alone. Exactly. Not "guessing" or "got to be". But exactly. In 1999 (last year listed) for Canada, the figure was 24,026, up from 23,152 in 1998.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                                  Where would all of these horses go if they didnt end up in the slaughter houses?

                                  "Spot"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  In 1993, 243,585 were slaughtered in the US alone. Compare that to the US figure 10 years later of 42,312 after a steady decline every year. Where did they go?

                                  The demand for the meat lessened, not the population (which actually went up).

                                  And at the same time, just take the good ol' "American" QH registrations - up nearly 50% (+/-) in that same time frame, in the beginning of the time frame going from 110,597 to the end of the time frame at 156,199. APHA going from a measly16,153 up to a whopping 60,113 in the same decade. Exact figures.

                                  As easy as it is to find actual facts and figures, you would think you would see them quoted properly more often in discussions like this, rather than just "guesstimates".

                                  Two Toofs
                                  (formerly - but still - NDANO)

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Keep in mind that little brain that is so hard to hit accurately with a bullet like the one person said, is the same small target these bolt guns are aiming for. Best I can deteremine with research, the government regulations do NOT require the horse to be dead before being bled out but unconcious. Personally, I'd hate to be knocked out, hung upside down and wake up when someone was cutting my throat.

                                    If the killing process could be made more humane and less frightening and stressful then I would object to it much less. I'm going to post one more link of what a trip through the slaugtherhouse is like. It is graphic and the link has warnings as well. It does not show repeated stunnings or anything like that but does show the "knock box" and the horse laying in a pool of blood after being stunned.

                                    http://www.equineadvocates.com/hs/inside.html

                                    I can't imagine how frightening and confusing it must be for horses to go through this process. I try to imagine what it is like standing in a pool of blood waiting to die and can't see how they aren't afraid. Horses are intelligent sensitive animals. Blood has a very strong smell and apparently the noise level is very high in one of these plants too.

                                    I do think Fairview's idea is a decent one if we could just make the entire process inside one of these plants less stressful and more humane. As unrealistic as it is, I'd love to see responsible horse ownership and horse breeding put an end to the "need" for an outlet for unwanted horses. Keep in mind as well that many of the horses slaughtered are NOT lame, vicious, untrainable, old or undesireable. They are also Premarin babies, exracehorses, someone's riding horse, stolen horses occasionally, or just a horse someone got tired of feeding.

                                    "Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig. He just looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal" Winston Churchill
                                    "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In 1999 (last year listed) for Canada, the figure was 24,026, up from 23,152 in 1998 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      TwoToofs - that was *4* years ago that this data was reported and actually - is pretty darned close to what I have stated.

                                      I know what goes out through Toronto airport every single week. Just speaking with our cargo reps tells me this info in a nutshell.

                                      Add in the ocean figures (which ARE more of a guesstimate that the air figures) and you come up with the 20,000 horses per year plus whatever Calgary ships out.

                                      You also quote AQHA stats - again - I am ONLY guessing here, but I also do know that the TB industry was decimated in the 90's there for awhile, and overall foalings were down dramatically - perhaps this accounts for the drop in numbers that were slaughtered to a large extent

                                      Not meaning to get into a numbers debate here - but whether 20,000 is the correct number annually in NA, or 50,000 is or 75,000 - what do you propose doing with those sheer numbers if slaughter is no longer a viable option? Where would these horses go?

                                      "Spot"

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #99
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> LJD or Impromptu, what worries me is, did this person not sign a contract with the SPCA (or whoever the agent was) restricting what she could do with the horse?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        I know there was a contract with the SPCA, but I think it was only for a year.

                                        -------------------------
                                        You can hitch a hackney to the Budweiser cart, but it wont make him a clydesdale
                                        -------------------------
                                        http://community.webshots.com/user/stainlesssteal
                                        No hugging dear. I'm British, we only show affection to dogs and horses.

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
                                          Keep in mind that little brain that is so hard to hit accurately with a bullet like the one person said, is the same small target these bolt guns are aiming for. Best I can deteremine with research, the government regulations do NOT require the horse to be dead before being bled out but unconcious. Personally, I'd hate to be knocked out, hung upside down and wake up when someone was cutting my throat.

                                          If the killing process could be made more humane and less frightening and stressful then I would object to it much less. I'm going to post one more link of what a trip through the slaugtherhouse is like. It is graphic and the link has warnings as well. It does not show repeated stunnings or anything like that but does show the "knock box" and the horse laying in a pool of blood after being stunned.

                                          http://www.equineadvocates.com/hs/inside.html

                                          I can't imagine how frightening and confusing it must be for horses to go through this process. I try to imagine what it is like standing in a pool of blood waiting to die and can't see how they aren't afraid. Horses are intelligent sensitive animals. Blood has a very strong smell and apparently the noise level is very high in one of these plants too.

                                          I do think Fairview's idea is a decent one if we could just make the entire process inside one of these plants less stressful and more humane. As unrealistic as it is, I'd love to see responsible horse ownership and horse breeding put an end to the "need" for an outlet for unwanted horses. Keep in mind as well that many of the horses slaughtered are NOT lame, vicious, untrainable, old or undesireable. They are also Premarin babies, exracehorses, someone's riding horse, stolen horses occasionally, or just a horse someone got tired of feeding.

                                          "Dogs look up to you, cats look down on you. Give me a pig. He just looks you in the eye and treats you as an equal" Winston Churchill
                                          "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          I hope everyone takes a good look at these pictures and then come back and post again about how you needed that $600
                                          Corner Stone Farm
                                          Weeki Wachee,FL .Follow us on FB!

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