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And another one falls through the cracks! :(

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  • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
    That is all you know to do, when you run out of sensible arguments, come back with the equivalent of you eat puppies for breakfast and "how many times do you beat your wife every day?"

    No, slaughter is a perfectly good way to, sorry, use one more of our natural, renewable resources, that humans have use for millennia.

    I know that those groups I can't mention here without giving some heartburn use any that may or they have incited as abuse for their propaganda, but have already explained that is not so.

    You are free to believe that, of course, just as I hope I am free to say you are choosing to ignore all that slaughter was just one more business and as good or bad as the ones managing it, just as any other out there.

    Horse slaughter is already one of the most regulated out there, but be my guest to work for more regulation.
    Ban it?
    Only those following certain groups would think that makes sense, as per most people I know, including many in the horse business.
    So once again, you won't answer the question I asked, and once again, you accuse posters of saying you eat puppies. It's not a trick question. I'm giving you examples of things that are banned for cultural reasons or because they cause suffering, but are considered part of a "culture" where they are accepted. And yet banning those things didn't take away the right to do other things, or own dogs or use horses for sport.

    So answer the question, and stop trying to deflect...

    We're never going to have local abattoirs in every city to humanely put a horse down, and render it or be able to sell the meat to Europe or other horse eating countries, and their is no way to make having a handful of SH in this country (or in CA or Mex ) humane, when they are huge, long distances apart, and operate based on killing as many as possible as quickly as they can, and no enforcement or transport/humane handling laws, since we don'
    t eat them here.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by jenm View Post
      That's a really good question. Even if there were something scientific that showed bute residue was no longer in the system after six months, it appears that most if not all horses sent to slaughter are killed pretty quickly. I'm not sure where this six month number came from.

      Packages of wormer also have "not to be used for animals intended for food". I'm guessing BSB must not have ever been wormed as well....
      And most of the governing agencies of the buyers insist No bute. Ever.
      Not bute 6 months ago.
      None.

      And yet there they are saying he had a 'passport' that stated it had been 6 months since he had bute and we shipped his carved up carcass out for people to eat.
      Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

      http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
        However, those who have no grasp of basic economy should pretty please stop meddling before we all suffer dearly.
        but since they have no concept, cannot grasp anything that does not happen within their narrow view....good grief. we are doomed.

        The horse slaughter industry barely affected our economy, and the effect it did have was to nearly bankrupt the city of Kaufman's budget.




        That goes from transport restrictions
        (which reminds me: if it is illegal to transport a sick or lame horse...are you prepared to pay the fine when you haul Dobbins to the clinic?), to export restrictions to bans which all will have consequences.
        Consequences far past what we deep reasonable and they will affect the regular horse owner.
        .
        It's illegal to transport 3 legged lame, blind or pregnant mares due to foal imminently, to slaughter.
        This is where a grasp of the issues is important. Not the misstating of facts, to try to insult people.

        And regarding your first sentence where you state that "it is your new friends who seem to insist that because Bluey and I do not believe in a ban we sell horses wholesale to slaughter... We don't think you sell horses to slaughter since owning one to sell would be a prerequisite...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
          Once an for all they are not a NATURAL resource. Why are you so stubborn? I've asked you before to show me anywhere in the Ag industry that calls livestock natural. Show me, prove it!

          It's just anti propaganda you are spouting which makes you no different than the Raras.

          ETA okay I did not say anywhere, I said reputable.

          I did a quick google and came up with different positions regarding Natural/ and or Renewable. Some regarding ag animals as natural and renewable are here:

          http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/freepubs/pdfs/uh177.pdf
          http://us.westfalia-separator.com/ap...resources.html
          http://www.scdhec.gov/environment/lw..._resources.pdf
          http://www.nr.gov.nl.ca/nr/agrifoods/animal/

          Language is a very plastic (meaning changeable) thing and words or phrases may have different meanings in varied contexts or industries.

          I'm choosing to move on from this as the RESOURCE aspect of using a horse is more pertinent to the discussion than the NATURAL one.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
            I have answered that one before, I didn't have the foggiest idea what you were talking about there.

            Slaughter is not inhumane, that already tells me you are not going to listen to anything I say, you already swallowed that propaganda.
            Slaughter is sad, is killing, is "disgusting", but it is one of the most regulated of all slaughter, is only one more process we use for, well, get one more use of horses, lets not get some set off again there and it is as good as all we do, better when well managed, has it's failures for all kinds of reasons.

            That's a flawed argument since the patients - even those that die accidentally usually have enough drugs on board to not feel a thing or know what happened. A hospital is a far far cry from a hospital.

            Do you expect every operation in a hospital is perfect?
            Do you have the largest non-profit group in the world spending all their millions to stop hospitals and operations, because they are not perfect, not only that, many times people are killed there?


            Right.

            The slaughter process, regulations and management, that is like all other, a work in progress and getting better all the time.
            Then, with the onslaught against them from certain groups and their followers, well, everything they do is going to be from suspect to, as in the case of this one horse here everyone keeps forgetting, made an example for their agenda to ban slaughter, as part of eliminating all uses of animals, eventually.

            Many here are myopic, only have their sights on this issue, are not aware of those certain groups out there and their assault on all we do with animals out there.
            Maybe that is why you are so cavalier about this ban slaughter agenda.
            No Bluey we are all well aware what PETA et al would like to do. I've said this before too - that does not mean we stop trying to make things better for the animals. You cannot lump all that together either.
            The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
            H. Cate

            Comment


            • So,

              Just a query - do horses 'fall' through the cracks or are they pushed?

              What cracks originate where and can those be changed?

              It seems to me that the chestnut TB at the auction scenario was the true first opportunity given to buy the horse? Auctioneer ignored bidder?
              Why wouldn't that be actionable since the auctioneer must get the highest price for the seller and the auction house?

              Was there a reason -personal offense perhaps- that the bid was not taken and why didn't the bidder open their mouth and SAY their bid if the auctioneer was closing the sale?

              Just doesn't compute for me.
              Last edited by D_BaldStockings; Apr. 2, 2013, 08:36 PM.

              Comment


              • Probably pushed.

                Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                So,

                Just a query - do horsse 'fall' through the cracks or are they pushed?

                What cracks originate where and can those be changed?

                It seems to me that the chestnut TB at the auction scenario was the true first opportunity given to buy the horse? Auctioneer ignored bidder?
                Why wouldn't that be actionable since the auctioneer must get the highest price for the seller and the auction house?

                Was there a reason -personal offense perhaps- that the bid was not taken and why didn't the bidder open their mouth and SAY their bid if the auctioneer was closing the sale?

                Just doesn't compute for me.
                The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                H. Cate

                Comment


                • Bluey, can you tell me how you think the slaughter process is getting better all the time? With sources please.

                  As far as the Ag Gag rules go, yes I think they are wrong. Theoretically, it would be nice if you could have an investigation ramped up within 24 hours with no consequences to the whistleblower, but in real life that just won't happen.

                  Imagine a manufacturing plant...let's say a plastic thermoforming plant, because I'm pretty familiar with that. You have a supervisor who is removing the safety equipment on the machines to make them run faster. The employee can take a photo and report it. Let's say he reports it to law enforcement. There is no legal right to have his name kept confidential...in any case, by reporting it within 24 hours it will be very clear who took the photo and did the reporting.

                  Now just imagine the supervisor's defense. He didn't do it, the operator did because he had a grudge and wanted some publicity.

                  If this same machine operator could take a succession of photos at different times and shifts, he could prove a pattern of safety violations and by letting someone else do the reporting, keep his job and maybe save himself from a vicious beating (it does happen).

                  I'm really not trying to be a smart a$$, I'm trying to point out why the Ag Gag laws protect the companies, not the whistleblowers or the food supply.

                  There are plenty of examples of whistleblowers through history who were fired...even killed.

                  Personally, I reported my neighbor to Animal Control. He was starving his horses. He had 10 mares with foals by their side in a 1 acre bare dirt paddock. No hay, no grain. You could see every rib, hip bones, and the spines. I wasn't brave enough to report him myself, because out here in the boonies, payback can be hell. So I had a friend do it. Well, turns out A/C was a friend of his, so you know what happened? Nothing. Not a damn thing. He just kept starving those horses. At least he didn't know I was the one who reported him, I probably would have found my dead dogs or my dead horses at my place a week or so later. He has anger management issues to put it nicely.

                  That's why we need to make it easy for a whistleblower to prove a pattern of abuse and the ability to keep his/her name confidential. I'd be fine with having to turn it over to law enforcement for prosecution and no publication for a certain period of time, but if law enforcement decided not to act, then publication could proceed. I'd be fine with making publication before notification of law enforcement or the appropriate agency illegal. Heck, give them a jail term, for all I care, but don't take away their right to assemble evidence and keep their anonymity.

                  I see it all the time, here in Kentucky. Flagrant disregard of coal mining safety regulations, cover up after cover up and non payment of fines. Just google coal mine accidents and cover ups. If we can't keep our miners safe, why would anyone care about horses that were sent to slaughter?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                    So,

                    Just a query - do horsse 'fall' through the cracks or are they pushed?

                    What cracks originate where and can those be changed?

                    It seems to me that the chestnut TB at the auction scenario was the true first opportunity given to buy the horse? Auctioneer ignored bidder?
                    Why wouldn't that be actionable since the auctioneer must get the highest price for the seller and the auction house?

                    Was there a reason -personal offense perhaps- that the bid was not taken and why didn't the bidder open their mouth and SAY their bid if the auctioneer was closing the sale?

                    Just doesn't compute for me.
                    I think more horses are pushed than fall, especially TBs fresh off the track. As far as filling the cracks, as long as their are dishonest people in the horse industry, there will always be cracks, although I would love to be proven wrong.

                    Too many people are in too much of a hurry to make a horse "be gone". Tracks are starting to state they have an "anti-slaughter policy" but it seems little is being done to enforce it if can even be enforced.

                    As for auctions, it seems Auctioneers and KB have struck up interesting friendships, it's part of the culture of dishonesty, lies and deception. I wouldn't put it past someone to earmark a horse for going straight to kill.

                    Auctioneers do sometimes ignore bidders, it has happened to people I know who have gone to these low end auctions. Why? I don't know, I'm only guessing it has something to do with the "good old boys network" which surrounds slaughter.
                    Last edited by jenm; Apr. 2, 2013, 08:33 PM. Reason: changed word
                    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
                    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
                    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      I have been to that auction and it is a fairly small room. I did wonder as well not so much why she was ignored, but why she did not speak up. She would have been heard. It IS a small room, with benches in different tiers in a semi-circle... one kb is usually pretty good at pointing out individuals bidders to the auctioneer and I am surprised that HE did not, IF he was there. But again, if the payout from the other kb was more interesting, he too could have been ignored.
                      I have not heard of this kb refusing to sell after the auction. Just poor luck that HE did not get BSB.
                      I really do not like the connection between rescues and kbs. It always end up smelling like a rat. And when the horses are sold after the fact... well the price through the rescue has increased considerably. Follow DeeThrd 's blog... why a horse who just went through auction would have needed extra help from Long Run??? come on..

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                        There was someone a while back that was insisting domesticated horses were not natural.
                        I wonder if that was you also?
                        Your point?

                        Comment


                        • So what is the work around to that problem?

                          Hire a known bidder as agent?
                          Approach one of the KB perhaps to buy or bid for you?

                          Guarantee them a sale after the sale at XX plus 20% or 50%?

                          Bake brownies for the auctioneer with your bidder # written in frosting?


                          I'm not a fan of 'ya can't just 'cause ya can't' thinking.

                          One approach doesn't work, then try another angle and then another?


                          You never win them all, yet only having one plan and not thinking what the other side's motivation and interest is when they are holding the power hand certainly is setting yourself -or myself, up for failure.

                          And then continuing on the same thing over and over?
                          Fly buzzing against the window pane syndrome. Try another route?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                            Your point?
                            you don't want to know....

                            then again, I do believe you have trouble with small captioning under pictures as well.

                            Comment


                            • None of those called domesicated animal a natural resource renewable or not.
                              Only one hinted at meats and dairy milk, to which I still protest. They are not natural they are man-made.

                              Natural itself means undisturbed humans. How is anything domesticated "natural"? Surely not just because they are carbon based.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                                you don't want to know....

                                then again, I do believe you have trouble with small captioning under pictures as well.

                                You know, maybe your health problems would improve if you weren't quite so nasty to others. All that anger welling up inside must be awfully depressing.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                                  you don't want to know....

                                  then again, I do believe you have trouble with small captioning under pictures as well.

                                  Small captioning under pictures? OMG you got me! That all you got? Pfffttt. Childs play.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                                    Small captioning under pictures? OMG you got me! That all you got? Pfffttt. Childs play.
                                    I am glad you see it that way.
                                    When do you go on to elementary school? I pray, do tell...


                                    nah, If I cared enough I would also have you trying to hush over it after you ran your mouth. Why yes, geothermal power plants are in fact a renewable, natural resource....unlike refineries.

                                    and if I cared even more I would find more of your nonsensical utterings...

                                    horses are like totally not natural...
                                    http://cgny.davlerstatic.com/uploads.../war-horse.jpg
                                    I guess you are right....awe....

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                                      I am glad you see it that way.
                                      When do you go on to elementary school? I pray, do tell...


                                      nah, If I cared enough I would also have you trying to hush over it after you ran your mouth. Why yes, geothermal power plants are in fact a renewable, natural resource....unlike refineries.

                                      and if I cared even more I would find more of your nonsensical utterings...

                                      horses are like totally not natural...
                                      http://cgny.davlerstatic.com/uploads.../war-horse.jpg
                                      I guess you are right....awe....
                                      You want people to treat you well but you keep on being nasty.
                                      For the life of me is your life that unhappy.
                                      Can't you see how that appears to people. I know you have posted that you have health problems, but I am not being funny, this kind of thing is not healthy. I so recommend something fun, and not COTH. Gardening is good for the soul. PRayer helps too!

                                      Comment


                                      • Some info regarding the FDA position on Butazolidin

                                        http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/.../ucm124078.htm

                                        Just provided for background as I think it is pertinent to selling or eating 'random' horsemeat or especially racehorse/showhorse meat under the assumption that there is an acceptable withdrawal period?
                                        Last edited by D_BaldStockings; Apr. 2, 2013, 10:13 PM.

                                        Comment


                                        • of toxic drugs, most notably phenylbutazone (“bute”), a common painkiller. While harmless to horses, bute is a carcinogen according to the National Toxicology Program. Could this be the reason why Oklahoma lawmakers are so anxious to ship it out of the U.S. to foreign consumers?

                                          In minute amounts, bute can cause fatal bone marrow depression diseases, cancer and hypersensitivity reactions in humans, according to researchers. Children are particularly at risk. For that reason, the FDA has banned it in horses slaughtered for human consumption, along with a long list of other commonly-administered drugs, some of which cause miscarriages and other serious health risks. No safe levels have been determined and no withdrawal times set.


                                          http://www.forbes.com/sites/vickerye...ughter-bill/2/
                                          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                                          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                                          Comment

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