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Leasing out horses who need training. Really?

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  • #41
    I had an interesting experience with this actually. I had bought a resell project and was only offering him for sale. But, as someone pointed out, there were a bunch of people on the facebook for sale pages asking for a free lease on him. So for the sake of getting them off of my back I put for sale or paid lease. I was stupidly surprised at how many people were interested in leasing him! I ended up selling him 6 months after I got him off the track but leasers were contacting me at 3-5 months and I was like seriously? Paying to ride a green horse? Maybe they expected the lease to be a ton lower than a packer and that is all that they can afford? That is the only thing I can think of.
    "People who think their brains are not worth protecting are probably right!"
    - quoted by Martha Drum

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    • #42
      Originally posted by ako View Post
      My answer: it depends.

      I "free part lease" my mare a couple days a week to a much better rider (a fellow boarder I know and trust). She covers some expenses.

      It's a win-win. There is no way this rider could afford a horse like this - she was a bit green at first, but fancy, talented, and honest. At the start, I couldn't give her a good enough ride on a regular basis and didn't want to continuously pay for 3-4 training rides a week. The lessor does get to show her.

      How many lessees get to ride a gorgeous, talented, honest WB for expenses? Don't tell me she's not getting a decent deal!
      Exactly!

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      • #43
        It's a tricky one, I suppose!

        I for one wouldn't pay to ride somebody's greenie - they would have to pay me to do that for them. By the same token, I'd be reluctant to lease out a horse that I wanted back - particularly a young or talented one - purely because you don't know what's going to happen to it in the hands of another person. If you get a good person, great! But there's always the risk that your well-started youngster comes back with a myriad of issues caused by inexperience/lack of discipline/injury/different priorities by rider/different training methods. A solid, reliable, established horse - that'd be a little different and I might consider it.

        I very nearly entered into a semi-lease situation a few times over the past couple of years - a friend of mine, a breeder, who I purchased my mare off, had a bunch of youngsters that due to her own ill health and injury couldn't be ridden. The offer was for her to cover all the feed (and associated) costs, send horse down to me, and me give it some work, and maybe take it out to a few shows. Due to lack of space and time on my end, this never eventuated, but this is about the only time I would have considered this sort of situation. It would have been essentially a free horse for me to ride. Though normally, I would expect someone that would be training a horse to be paid for that training, just not a good friend.

        I certainly wouldn't expect to send my horse off to someone for more training and not have to pay them for the work they do!

        I think people tend to wear the rose-coloured glasses when it comes to dealing with their horses - "oh, but it would be SUCH a privilege for anyone to work with dear Stormy/Midnight/Star/Billy - I'm really doing THEM a favour!"

        ...Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way.

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        • #44
          I free leased a green as grass 17.1 hand Hanoverian mare in high school. We paid all the expenses, training, and insurance for her, but after about a year she was trucking around 2'6 at the shows and winning. We ended up moving up to 3' and showing in Green Working Hunter and Childrens. It was win-win. Her owner got great free training on the mare for a few years and her price went way up because of the training. I got a free 3' horse.

          I am now free leasing out a green eligible gelding. He has a lot of training under his belt, but he just needs to be rode 4-5 days a week. The people I am free leasing him to are giving him the riding time he needs (win for me) and I'm giving them a free lease on a super talented gelding that has about a year of full training under his belt and 'A' show experience.
          Southern Cross Guest Ranch
          An All Inclusive Guest Ranch Vacation - Georgia

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          • #45
            Originally posted by x View Post
            Yeah, this is the one that drives me nuts. And when you have such a horse for sale, you get all kinds of people wanting to know if you will free lease it to them....ummm, no!
            I know, right? I'm like, if you have the resources to adequately meet a sport horse's monthly care and training needs, and your backyard 4h program is so faaaabulous, what is stopping you from pulling into the racetrack and getting your own and making it up? Where do you think this one came from? Mars?

            The differencebetween a green free horse in your allegedly wonderful program and a my made horse in your allegedly wonderful program costs time, money or both. Get your own to make up in this program you are telling me is so great and you'll see how much.
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            • Original Poster

              #46
              Originally posted by DressageRider View Post
              But there's always the risk that your well-started youngster comes back with a myriad of issues caused by inexperience/lack of discipline/injury/different priorities by rider/different training methods.
              ...
              The offer was for her to cover all the feed (and associated) costs, send horse down to me, and me give it some work, and maybe take it out to a few shows. Due to lack of space and time on my end, this never eventuated, but this is about the only time I would have considered this sort of situation. It would have been essentially a free horse for me to ride. Though normally, I would expect someone that would be training a horse to be paid for that training, just not a good friend.
              Some good points!

              1. With TL Behemoth From Pasture, I was thinking that his rider would need to be cautious about the fitting up process. The giant ones need a lot of ligamentous fitness, IMO. I can't imagine creating a suspensory injury on someone else's horse and how that would go down. But would every lessee be so protective of the horse... even as that meant some long, slow boring rides?

              2. If you are used to being paid to train, does it feel just as bad or skeevy to give those rides away even while the HO feeds the horse? So you aren't paying for the privilege of riding as the ammy lessee would, but you still are stepping down a notch from your usual way.

              I just wonder because so many people (men) tell me (a woman), "hey, if you aren't getting paid and giving it away.... you had a part in not getting paid." That's the only reason I wondered about this kind of lease and the Downfall of Civilization.
              The armchair saddler
              Politically Pro-Cat

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              • #47
                My horse will be coming off of a "free-lease" this month.

                He is by no means a $$$$$ show horse, but he IS valueable to me. Due to time constraints AND being pregnant he was just sitting here...so, I free leased him to a trainer who used him for some lessons and rode him around herself to keep him tunned up.

                He was out of shape but knows his job. Win win for both of us...he got a job and I could stop worrying about him just sitting here and she got a reliable horse she could use. She covered all of his expenses but did not pay me a lease fee.
                Never Ride Faster Than Your Guardian Angel Can Fly
                Way Back Texas~04/20/90-09/17/08
                Green Alligator "Captain"

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by mvp View Post
                  2. If you are used to being paid to train, does it feel just as bad or skeevy to give those rides away even while the HO feeds the horse? So you aren't paying for the privilege of riding as the ammy lessee would, but you still are stepping down a notch from your usual way.
                  If the horse is super fancy or otherwise notably above the level/capability of horses I normally get paid to train, and/or there is a legitimate potential to show, it would not feel bad or skeevy to me. Of course, if I am putting the early work on a horse in return for potential upper level showing years down the line, I would want to have some sort of arrangement in place to prevent the owner from pulling the ride after I have put the foundation on it for free.

                  For example, if someone with a going I2 horse was going away for two months and offered me the chance to pay board on it as long as I kept it in work and paid to take a lesson once a week, that opportunity would be worth it to me.

                  If I was at the point in my career where I had a string of GP horses in training to pick from every day, both mine and other people's who paid me to ride, it no longer would be.
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                  • #49
                    I had a long post that went poof.

                    Short version.

                    I have free leased 3 horses (I paid expenses). One was rehabbing form a suspensory injury. The other two were barely backed.

                    The first one got me through the time after I had to put my horse down after a long battle with sceptic arthritis. I wanted to ride again, but wasnot ready to go horse shopping. The rehab went fine, and I had a blast riding and competing him.

                    The two green ones (one a not very athletic rescue, the other a well bred performance TB.) allowed me to hone my baby-training skills, and learn from my mistakes, before I started my own new horse, that I bought as a long yearling.

                    Definitely time and money well spent from my perspective.

                    With each of them, if they had sold, I would get a commission (legal for amateurs in those days). But they didn't. So "all" I got was the experience.
                    Janet

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

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                    • #50
                      I do paid leases, 3 were green but worth the $$$ i paid since they were quiet and packed me around, so yeah win win, other 3 were older schoolmasters that needed some extra attention,

                      I want to re lease one of the schoolmasters as soon as i have income, loff myseniors. The other one i want to lease is not much ofa chance, but if i were his mummy i wouldnt want to share either! Hes my second choice and also a older schoolmaster.

                      I volentarily pay for extra supplements ect but thats just my nature
                      Beyond the Ring-para dressage, training, coaching
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                      Proud Team Four Star Minion! Renegade for Life!

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                      • #51
                        Not exactly the same thing but, a few years ago I had a horse that wanted to jump. I don't jump. My plan was to get her jumping and then sold. I couldn't afford months of training though so, I paid for some initial training and then was going to take her home. The trainers horse ended up out of commission and she really enjoyed riding mine so she trainer her for free for a couple of months. We did have a contract stating a commission on sales and then a set amount I would pay her when the horse sold if it was after a certain length of time. I actually ended up selling the horse over a year later (through a contact she made) and I paid her more than what our contract stated as I felt she had earned it. So, it was a win/win.
                        Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Goethe

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                        • #52
                          I just leased out my mare over the winter while I was visiting home. She was super well broke on the flat and trails but fairly green jumping. Girl leasing really wanted to get into jumping after a month or two and a fun lesson with x rails and they got serious about it and spent a lot of time and $ going to lessons and clinics. I felt a bit guilty as it seemed like almost too good of a deal for me - horse is getting tons of 'free' training! It's all worked out just fine in the end though as they work so well together I've agreed to sell.

                          I dislike those ads with the generic, scrawny baby with little to no training looking for a lease. It just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

                          I can respect that there are some amazing prospects out there that would be a win/win in that owner gets 'free' training and rider can get their name out there/ride a horse they may not otherwise be able to afford.

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                          • #53
                            I envy anyone who can manage it. I can't find someone to exercise my very cute and well behaved guy twice a week, and I'm willing to PAY.
                            Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
                            Witherun Farm
                            http://witherun-farm.blogspot.com/

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by suzier444 View Post
                              But, I think there's potentially a gray area where a particular lease arrangement might benefit both the horse and the rider equally, and there's some room for negotiation there. There are some very competent ammies looking for more time in the saddle to hone their skills, and plenty of horses that fall somewhere between neon-green and fully-trained. Like for example a middle-aged horse with some training but also some issues to fix, and an owner who needs a little help with the bills and the horse, and a lessor who can't afford their own horse but is capable of making a positive impact on the horse.

                              JMO.
                              This is my situation. I'm a very decent rider, but I have some mild mental issues that I hope to work out of. I'm leaseing a former broodmare of my trainers who's decently broke, but has had 3 years off due to babies and a serious injury. I pay a portion of her upkeep, and pay for lessons and showing. They get a horses costs covered, and get a mare out showing that they don't have time for. (This will also help promote her babies) Its a win for both of us at this point. I'm leasing her until the end of the summer (she's being bred next month) when we'll reasses my skills and see if one of the younger horses might be a better fit for next year.

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                              • #55
                                I've done this very often, starting in 1999 and up to this year. Currently, I have two horses leased that are super experienced and they are on "expense leases" to people who otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity, but I have another leased out now and another that was recently to assistants/working students for ULRs. The students/assistants would not be able to afford a horse of this quality otherwise, they get experience (and an excellent reference from me) for their future independent training businesses, and I get the fun of having more than the one horse I actually have the money to pay for and the time to ride. I have had young/green (but nice) horses with working students in many barns over the years, and have always thought it was a win-win.
                                OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!

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                                • #56
                                  I've only scanned this thread, but it seems like no one's brought up the luxury that some free leases (depending on the contract) offer in being able to easily get rid of a horse if things go south. I leased my horse out on a free-lease basis and when the horse was injured, he came home. They loved the horse and went through a good 3+ months of vet bills trying to get him right, but when they couldn't get him right and the vet bills were piling up, they were able to easily get rid of this otherwise unsellable horse (seriously, who wants to buy a horse with a mysterious lameness that turns out to be EPM?). I think that can be worth a lot and if you only need a horse for a year or so (imagine a junior in high school that is not expecting to be able to take a horse to college with her), it can be a lot easier to lease a horse, regardless of its training level, than to buy a horse and sell it.

                                  That being said, my friend just told me that she's looking to lease out her relatively green (and not terribly fancy) horse in exchange for board and I think that there's probably a 1% chance of her finding a leasee. I had a pretty difficult time finding someone to lease my well-trained packer of an event horse (the aforementioned horse I leased out, who is somewhat difficult in dressage, but a trained monkey could show jump or do cross country with), so I doubt she'll find anyone willing to pay board on her green horse.

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                                  • #57
                                    I've only scanned this thread, but it seems like no one's brought up the luxury that some free leases (depending on the contract) offer in being able to easily get rid of a horse if things go south
                                    Yup. Also, the luxury of not being tied to a particular location and horse ownership forever, when what you really want is some horsey time and riding. There are several very nice adult riders at my current barn who like being able to travel spontaneously for months who enjoy horse "ownership" during the times they are around. They exercise ride for my trainer, and I did entertain leasing my gelding to one, she was interested in getting him going in Dressage (where he's definitely green, though not an unbroke horse) and I was happy to discuss options for her to show him a little. We didn't go ahead, but that was one situation that would probably have worked fine. He's a nice horse, she worked well with him, she would have enjoyed bringing him along for a few months and showing a bit.

                                    If both parties feel like they benefit, leasing a green horse can be a decent deal. I don't think I'd ever waste time advertising or promoting a green horse for lease. At plenty of facilities in my area, owning or leasing is the only way to access the arena outside of lessons...you certainly can't expect to grab a lesson horse and take it on the trail or something...you have to assume some liability first. Some green horses probably fit the bill for some people.

                                    The ads on our Kijiji advertising free leases make me roll my eyes too, they actually annoy me at times..."pay me for the privelege of training my horse"...but really, if the parties involved are satisfied, it certainly doesn't hurt me.
                                    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

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                                    • #58
                                      Oh I've got a good one!

                                      DH and I were doing some barn work for a customer of his dad's since she was injured, and she offered her husband's horse to my DH to ride if he wanted, since her husband had a bad back and didn't ride anymore. She sort of mentioned that she would want him to pay to lease the horse eventually, which we couldn't afford, but we decided to feel out the situation anyway.

                                      Owner says that horse is a 15 y/o QH that her husband used to trail ride, run barrels, etc. on and has just been out of work for a couple months, but is quiet. We think PERFECT! This will be a great horse for DH to play on and have fun with.

                                      We set a time for DH to try the horse out, and the whole thing is just a disaster from the start. Horse owner does not pick feet or groom before tacking up, all tack is ill-fitting and in poor condition, and horse seemed fearful of her. Poor horse is wild-eyed all the way up to the ring, where DH hops on. Horse proceeds to do nothing but spin in circles and run backwards, threatening to rear each time DH even lightly touches the reins, and he has a SOFT hand. It turned out that the dear little horse just had no training whatsoever, and was completely frazzled and stressed because he had NO FREAKING CLUE WHAT TO DO. Owner was still adamant that he was a "well trained horse" that someone would surely want to spend $285 a month to ride!

                                      We ended up putting some good groundwork on him for free, but man did I grumble the whole time that I should have been getting paid to train him!!
                                      Proud member of the "I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday" clique

                                      PONY'TUDE

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                        For example, if someone with a going I2 horse was going away for two months and offered me the chance to pay board on it as long as I kept it in work and paid to take a lesson once a week, that opportunity would be worth it to me.

                                        If I was at the point in my career where I had a string of GP horses in training to pick from every day, both mine and other people's who paid me to ride, it no longer would be.
                                        That makes sense. I'd also consider the I2 horse and the free riding/lessons I paid for the cost of my "continuing education." I'd be happy to pay that and take great care of the horse.
                                        The armchair saddler
                                        Politically Pro-Cat

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