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Did a horse die at Clinton Anderson's ranch?

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  • Originally posted by Fairy Knob Farm View Post
    But I did think it was my responsibility to tell my story....I thought for the sake of future horses and horse owners that (even though I do not know how Pharaoh died I assume it was natural causes) that my horse passed away while in training there and our care and treatment afterwards was not smooth or pleasant.
    This is where you lost me.

    I've sent my horse out for training. I worried while he was gone.

    But if he died while he was there -- which is always a possibility -- and if I concluded that he had probably died of natural causes -- why on earth would it be my "responsibility" to warn other horse owners about that trainer?

    P.S. My horse is 13.3. I'm 5'6 and not slim. My horse doesn't feel remotely ponyish. A lot of quarter horses are small, stout, and strong.

    Also -- of course we're all sorry your horse died.
    I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Fairy Knob Farm View Post
      " I can call in a Veternarian from Dallas to come and do an autopsy if you want." "It will cost $250 for them to make the farm visit and could go as high as $3000.00 If the cause of death is hard to determine." "Things like colic are easier to determine then heart attacks or aneurisms".
      "I will need your answer in the next couple hours." I'd also like to offer you one of my signature horses, I know it is not your horse but I still want you to have it". Horses die, shit happens, I had a friend that died from a heart attack and he was like 30."
      I truly sympathize with you and your horses death, but what you quote above as having come from CA is utterly unacceptable! Did CA try to steer you away from having a necropsy done on your horse by claiming a high expense for it, and offer you a replacement horse instead? It's highly unlikely that he or his staff mistreated your horse, but if he steered you away from a necropsy by claiming it is prohibitively expensive? Then SHAME on him! HE is the one making something smell funny if this case. Again, I am not a litigious person, but if "I''s & "T"'s weren't lined & dotted, then make a stink. You have a right to do so.
      Last edited by jdeboer01; Apr. 1, 2013, 11:57 PM.
      www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
      Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
      with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

      Comment


      • Newbie first post, so be kind to me.
        I am very sorry your horse died, I really am. However, I cannot understand how you could NOT have a necropsy, when it's not obvious why the horse died? "Tied out low", would be my first clue that something was wrong! I lost a mare to colic and chose not to necropsy her because she was still dead, and we knew why, necropsying her would not bring her back- I was with her from start to finish, and am still totally inconsolable, 25 years later, because of that sad day.

        Reading your facebook caused me to note this- you wrote what looked like gloom and doom, wondering if your horse was dead- and then the next day got a call that he was! Then you let yourself be dissuaded from having a necropsy on a previously healthy animal? You had paid for training- why not pay for that necropsy? It just rings strange, I'm sorry- it just does.
        I also take slight umbrage to the " I didn't want a pony" quote- I have 2 14.1 and one 15.2 hh horses, one who is a Paso Fino and the biggest acting horse I know- he rides like he's 16 hands high! He is the epitomy of a warhorse in battle, all snort and fire under control--Don't tell him, or my Arabians, that they are ponies, 'cause they are pretty sure they are horses!
        If it walks like a duck- it's a duck.
        Take the Signature horse and sell it, and before buying another Friesian you can't ride- get some lessons. C.A is an asshat and anyone who knows much about horses can see that. Being told to stay away and not visit- would be clue 2 not to take a horse to him!
        Originally posted by Cindyg View Post
        This is where you lost me.

        I've sent my horse out for training. I worried while he was gone.

        But if he died while he was there -- which is always a possibility -- and if I concluded that he had probably died of natural causes -- why on earth would it be my "responsibility" to warn other horse owners about that trainer?

        P.S. My horse is 13.3. I'm 5'6 and not slim. My horse doesn't feel remotely ponyish. A lot of quarter horses are small, stout, and strong.

        Also -- of course we're all sorry your horse died.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by microbovine View Post
          7 out of 10? What the heck? There is a reason I think most NH is crap. I see these guys selling their special, magical halters, bridles, carrot sticks, and saddles. You need to buy all that crap for their magical training to work. Really, when you think about it, their main technique is to put on a tight pair of Wranglers and appeal to as many middle aged women as possible. That's it. They are marketing based on the classic 'sex appeal' scheme. Why do you think it's so damn hard for equally talented female horse trainers to make that kind of money? Women naturally use more gentle techniques on horses and have done so for centuries. Men picked up on it, dressed up in the rugged cowboy look and made millions. Any marketing expert will tell you how to sell to a market that is dominated by women.

          The only one I'd pay money to see is Buck Brannaman. I consider it a bonus that I don't give a flying rat's butt what he looks like.
          I agree, seven out of ten horses with girth galls = bad management. As for the "tight wrangler jeans?" If that influences your choice of trainer for your "beloved" horse, then you've earned whatever bad outcome is coming to you .. no one to blame but youself in that circumstance.

          Comment


          • Spanish Norman Horse


            Just saying.....


            Dear Fairyknob:

            Since you are able to tame the net, I am sure you could have found the means to check on the price of a necropsy.
            And since you have the money to pay CA, I am sure you could have swung it, even with the fairy and butterfly premium.

            When you have a dispute that involves substantial amounts of money and/or legal action, you stay the hell away from FB....makes things so much cleaner and more in your favor in the end.

            Quit being condescending about horse size.
            The remark alone of the Spanish Norman horse tells me you know a lot less about horses than you seem to think.
            Size does not matter, it's how you use it


            I am sure you loved that horse very much and you are heart broken.
            And I am sorry for your loss.

            But sheesh....

            BTW, you should have left well enough alone. The COTH forums do pop up on google searches all the time, so it's about as visible, maybe more so, as your FB page.
            it's only you and your 20.000 closest friends....
            Originally posted by BigMama1
            Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
            GNU Terry Prachett

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cindyg View Post
              This link didn't work. Would you try it again?
              It seems to be working when I click on it. Idk?
              Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

              Comment


              • Fairy Knob,

                I'm very sorry about the loss of your horse. That is NEVER an easy thing to deal with.

                I think where the problem is here, is that you are "sharing your story" in a way that suggests CA and DUH are responsible for the death of your horse. You say repeatedly you're not blaming him, but the fact that you feel you "need to share" that "horses might die at the ranch" flies in the face of that.

                Since you did not get a necropsy, you have NO idea how or why Pharoah died. So you can't blame anyone, or even hint at responsibility. So then... what is the story you are trying to "share"? That horses die? Well, yes. Everything dies.

                Basically, the whole bent of your "sharing" of this story is that you somehow want to blame CA and his ranch and trainers for what happened to Pharoah. Even as your words state the contrary, your actions and other statements are saying, essentially, "CA killed my horse." If you want to be able to say that, you really should have gotten a necropsy.

                If you think it was probably natural causes, why was this story shared in this way in the first place, as a "warning" to people? It's an extremely weird way to deal with it. Of course people are often not rational when they're grieving, but still.
                "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                My CANTER blog.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cindyg View Post
                  This link didn't work. Would you try it again?
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgDat...ure=watch-vrec

                  this is the same link without the m. before youtube. I think that happens when things are shared by mobile device.

                  Comment


                  • They maybe it. Lol I am on an iPad. I never knew that. Thanks
                    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                    Comment


                    • Is Clinton himself going to appear next?


                      Why not take the horse he offered you and then sell it?

                      This still sounds fishy to me.
                      Foaling Around www.facebook.com/foalingaround
                      Custom Equestrian Items and Bath Products

                      Comment


                      • Okay, was this a stud horse or gelding? And, inquiring minds, is a Spanish Norman horse a Friesian? Or is that the breed she raises on the side?

                        ETA: Sorry, I couldn't get through the vid. The one thing which struck me, the bending to the outside and then 'scurrying' the other way. Even working gates and ranch work, that's impractical. I'm not sure what it's for and why bending so far. ?? But he's the rich one, I'm not....
                        GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by goneriding24 View Post
                          Okay, was this a stud horse or gelding? And, inquiring minds, is a Spanish Norman horse a Friesian? Or is that the breed she raises on the side?
                          A Spanish Norman is a Andalusian/Percheron crossbred. I knew people who were going to make big money breeding them 15 years ago but shockingly, they only lost money and quit. Low level ammie friendly draft crosses with nice manes and a made-up history, basically.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cindyg View Post
                            This link didn't work. Would you try it again?
                            I know someone posted the link, but you can also hit the link which says "desktop" at the top of the page...
                            Originally posted by Silverbridge
                            If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
                              Fairy Knob,


                              Since you did not get a necropsy, you have NO idea how or why Pharoah died. So you can't blame anyone, or even hint at responsibility. So then... what is the story you are trying to "share"? That horses die? Well, yes. Everything dies.

                              Basically, the whole bent of your "sharing" of this story is that you somehow want to blame CA and his ranch and trainers for what happened to Pharoah. Even as your words state the contrary, your actions and other statements are saying, essentially, "CA killed my horse." If you want to be able to say that, you really should have gotten a necropsy.
                              What troubles me the most about this situation is that CA should have requested and paid for the necropsy himself, just to avoid this very thing from evolving like it has. The fact that he didn't, and also gave the owner information that hints at discouragement for her seeking a necropsy is very telling. If he was 100% certain that it had nothing to do with the training or care, then I can't imagine why he wouldn't want proof of that!

                              And offering her the horse, when he had no legal obligation to do so (if it wasn't the fault of anything/one at his ranch), adds to my suspicion.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by valkyrie36 View Post
                                The fact that he didn't, and also gave the owner information that hints at discouragement for her seeking a necropsy is very telling.


                                Offering up prices (that we do not know if they are right or wrong) is some how discouraging her? If he did not want her to do a necropsy at all I am guessing he would not have brought the subject up.


                                On the subject of the price, I am guessing, like so many things in life, he gave her the extreme high so there would not be any 'you said it was only going to be $300 and now they are billing me $3000 because I ordered every test in the book, you were not honest' in the end.

                                Comment


                                • One thing I can speak to, because I've had the regrettable experience of owning "that kind" of horse:

                                  At the point where you have a 5, 6, or 7 year old who can't be backed--you are in a make-or-break situation. Not only is an unusable horse that age a giant negative number and a liabiity, he has NO future if something happened to YOU.

                                  Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like there's a possibility that all that kissy-face and tricks training on the ground somehow might have given this horse the wrong idea about "who's on top." Maybe yes, maybe no. With my Lusitano/TB cross, I did everything 100% right from the day he was born and he still always had several screws loose--and several of the best in the business couldn't fix him.

                                  At that point owning him was about as much fun as "loving" a man who beats you every night. I was pouring money down a BNT's rathole to try desperately to get this horse some kind of a life--because if he was too dangerous for me, the trainers considered him too dangerous for ANYBODY and the alternative was a hole in the ground.

                                  When you sign a horse like that over to someone for re-education, you must assume that some pretty strong methods of obtaining submission will be used. These may include flipping, various forms of tying or hobbling, withholding normal feed or water, and multiple sessions of hard work per day. When you're desperate to salvage the situation, the best thing you can do is make sure he's properly insured. In fact, I do this ANY time I won't be the primary caregiver for one of my horses.

                                  I've seen CA's methods on TV and personally believe these are very strong, very coercive methods appropriate only FOR the real "problem cases." I think using those methods with an average, agreeable young horse creates far more problems than it solves. I believe these methods ARE appropriate for the situation with the Friesian you describe.

                                  Further: Talk to some of the European dressage trainers who work with Baroque breeds and you'll quickly find that the vast majority of those horses spend all day in a tie-stall and are taken out for their work only. They live a life of very carefully orchestrated control and unremitting discipline. My experiences with several rang-a-tang Iberians over the years (most were boarders) has led me to the conclusion that this is done for a reason. These horses require being in a program with constant, expert and very disciplined handling. Few of them are good choices for a novice, an ammie or a person who lacks the ability and desire to be very strong with a horse when need be. The bond one can develop with these horses can only be forged through deep, mutual respect. It is easier to break the eggs than to make the omelet. Been there, done that.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by valkyrie36 View Post
                                    What troubles me the most about this situation is that CA should have requested and paid for the necropsy himself, just to avoid this very thing from evolving like it has. The fact that he didn't, and also gave the owner information that hints at discouragement for her seeking a necropsy is very telling. If he was 100% certain that it had nothing to do with the training or care, then I can't imagine why he wouldn't want proof of that!

                                    And offering her the horse, when he had no legal obligation to do so (if it wasn't the fault of anything/one at his ranch), adds to my suspicion.
                                    who is to say he didn't offer?
                                    Originally posted by BigMama1
                                    Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                                    GNU Terry Prachett

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by goneriding24 View Post
                                      Okay, was this a stud horse or gelding? And, inquiring minds, is a Spanish Norman horse a Friesian? Or is that the breed she raises on the side?

                                      ETA: Sorry, I couldn't get through the vid. The one thing which struck me, the bending to the outside and then 'scurrying' the other way. Even working gates and ranch work, that's impractical. I'm not sure what it's for and why bending so far. ?? But he's the rich one, I'm not....
                                      Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                                      Spanish Norman Horse


                                      Just saying.....

                                      I don't quote myself often
                                      Originally posted by BigMama1
                                      Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                                      GNU Terry Prachett

                                      Comment


                                      • It took me 13 pages of reading to realize DUH ranch was Down Under Horsemanship and not DUH, as in Homer Simpson. Duh.....

                                        I too am sorry for the lady's loss (we've all been there at sometime) but I agree that Fairy Knob should have taken the offered horse and sold it. I mean, it is a CA Signature horse. Some fan would have paid big money, I'm sure.
                                        Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post


                                          Offering up prices (that we do not know if they are right or wrong) is some how discouraging her? If he did not want her to do a necropsy at all I am guessing he would not have brought the subject up.


                                          On the subject of the price, I am guessing, like so many things in life, he gave her the extreme high so there would not be any 'you said it was only going to be $300 and now they are billing me $3000 because I ordered every test in the book, you were not honest' in the end.
                                          I agree. I don't feel that his words were discouraging either. I think he may have been trying to prevent any sticker shock to a woman who was already clearly upset.

                                          I also feel that he was not obligated to pay for it himself. It was the owners horse and he left it up to her if she wanted the body examined. Some people have deep spiritual or personal beliefs that a body not be desecrated. It's not a decision I would feel comfortable making for someone else.

                                          CA didn't need to make the offer of a replacement horse but I'm sure he did it as a gesture of good will and to try to maintain a potentially profitable (for him) business relationship - whether through FKF sending more horses or word of mouth about how he went above and beyond to try to make a bad situation better. No, the horse he offered wasn't going to replace your horse and you have every right to turn it down but to complain about an offer he wasn't obligated to make in any way is simply bad form. I equate this to getting a gift from someone and you just didn't like it so you post on Facebook what a horrible person someone is because they didn't give you exactly what you wanted. Think about how that sounds. When I'm on the receiving end of a bad gift, I politely accept it, thank the gift giver for their kindness and then quietly exchange the gift for something more fitting for my personal taste. I'm with you - I'm not a QH person either. But you bet your butt I would have accepted it graciously and then found a way to make lemonade from those lemons.

                                          I also agree with Lady Eboshi's assessment. It seems that this gelding may have been treated more like a spoiled pet than a 1500 pound animal with the potential to do serious harm to his handlers. Tough love is often in order to knock these guys down a few pegs and I'm sure CA was capable of delivering on this.

                                          It's a shame the horse passed on but I'm with the crowd that says it was probably a breed specific congenital issue rather than anyone's fault. Seeking to place blame on anyone in this matter is a fool's mission - especially when you weren't there, have no evidence to support your theory and have contradicted yourself through your comments.

                                          I understand you have suffered a loss, but opening yourself up to a potential lawsuit for slander/libel and making yourself a target for public ridicule isn't going to help you move on.

                                          Comment

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