• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Did a horse die at Clinton Anderson's ranch?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 7 out of 10? What the heck? There is a reason I think most NH is crap. I see these guys selling their special, magical halters, bridles, carrot sticks, and saddles. You need to buy all that crap for their magical training to work. Really, when you think about it, their main technique is to put on a tight pair of Wranglers and appeal to as many middle aged women as possible. That's it. They are marketing based on the classic 'sex appeal' scheme. Why do you think it's so damn hard for equally talented female horse trainers to make that kind of money? Women naturally use more gentle techniques on horses and have done so for centuries. Men picked up on it, dressed up in the rugged cowboy look and made millions. Any marketing expert will tell you how to sell to a market that is dominated by women.

    The only one I'd pay money to see is Buck Brannaman. I consider it a bonus that I don't give a flying rat's butt what he looks like.
    “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

    St. Padre Pio

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rabicon View Post
      I don't think we can say he does one method for all horses. We just don't know, unless someone on here has sent their horse to him that was not a qh or paint. The death of this horse could completely be no ones fault at all. I've known 2 horses in the past few years that were under the age of 8 fall over dead from a "heart attack" standing In the pasture not even been ridden in weeks. It happens and without a necropsy it's all speculation and i don't think it's fair to either party
      to speculate what happen. CA has worked with other breeds, heck he even worked with I believe it was Stephen bradley's event horse before. Does he train his students on different breeds? Idk but it'd be interesting to know facts.
      His whole marketing plan is based on "The Method".

      If you work with enough horses, long enough, (I'm talking decades, not weeks) odds are a couple will die when in your control. I just find the offer to replace the horse right off the bat odd (if true). To me this shows that he's lost a lot of respect and compassion for horses as individuals and is has donned blinkers just like most of the half hour wonders. JMHO
      Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

      Comment


      • From the sounds of it, this particular horse had only been there two weeks so probably wasn't being worked THAT hard yet.

        Also, as has been said previously, this horse was not being worked at the time it died. There was no struggle. It basically lied down and died. This is highly indicative of aortic rupture which seems to be a fairly common cause of death in the Friesian breed. Lots of horses of other breeds die this way as well. Hickstead anyone? In any case, the death of this horse is a "no fault" situation. And Clinton Anderson my be a egomaniac, but I highly doubt he's a sadistic horse abuser.
        www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
        Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
        with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
          If you work with enough horses, long enough, (I'm talking decades, not weeks) odds are a couple will die when in your control.
          Yup. But over the decades, less than on one hand, not a blanket statement, 'horses die' and the gall one. IDK, just odd.
          GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Superminion View Post
            I just caught up on this thread. I could care less one way or another about CA or the Fairy Lady.... but if CA was going to A) Run something through the program for free, B) Give her a horse valued at 25K, and/or B) Refund all her money... why couldn't he offer to pay for the autopsy on the horse? It would certainly be cheaper and clear up any questions as to why the horse died while in his care. Or why wouldn't the Fairy Lady ask him to pay for it as compensation since she couldn't afford it and CA was obviously looking for a way to compensate her. The way that I read it was that they didn't have one done because they couldn't afford it.
            I had a horse die in training years ago, and the trainer paid for the autopsy himself--likely to cover his a$$ if not for the kindness of the gesture. Also paid for the burial and refunded my entire fee (even though it was not his fault the horse died). I didn't cause a stink, and we remain friends to this day. Sounds like this situation could have been handled better on all fronts, by all parties involved.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by manyponies View Post
              He has no compassion for animals OR people at all.... can't you tell that from the letter he wrote? Anyone who has the attitude that "Hey, shit happens, horses die, get over it"...shouldn't be able to train horses at all, in my opinion...
              From seeing CA in person many times and listening to him talk about animals, this is my takeaway impression as well. I don't like his horsemanship methods...but I REALLY don't like the way he talks to and about animals when he's working them. He has little respect for them. When he lost Road to the Horse a couple of years ago, he blamed the horse...the horse who worked his heart (and lungs) out for CA for hours so he could have a temper tantrum when he lost. Sorry to digress, but this guy has no business with horses, imo.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by valkyrie36 View Post
                I had a horse die in training years ago, and the trainer paid for the autopsy himself--likely to cover his a$$ if not for the kindness of the gesture. Also paid for the burial and refunded my entire fee (even though it was not his fault the horse died). I didn't cause a stink, and we remain friends to this day. Sounds like this situation could have been handled better on all fronts, by all parties involved.
                This would have been the professional way to handle it.

                Originally posted by valkyrie36 View Post
                From seeing CA in person many times and listening to him talk about animals, this is my takeaway impression as well. I don't like his horsemanship methods...but I REALLY don't like the way he talks to and about animals when he's working them. He has little respect for them. When he lost Road to the Horse a couple of years ago, he blamed the horse...the horse who worked his heart (and lungs) out for CA for hours so he could have a temper tantrum when he lost. Sorry to digress, but this guy has no business with horses, imo.
                Blaming the horse is poor horsemanship as well as poor sportsmanship. And I agree with your assessment of his lack of empathy or knowing when enough is too much.

                Originally posted by jdeboer01 View Post
                From the sounds of it, this particular horse had only been there two weeks so probably wasn't being worked THAT hard yet.

                Also, as has been said previously, this horse was not being worked at the time it died. There was no struggle. It basically lied down and died. This is highly indicative of aortic rupture which seems to be a fairly common cause of death in the Friesian breed. Lots of horses of other breeds die this way as well. Hickstead anyone? In any case, the death of this horse is a "no fault" situation. And Clinton Anderson my be a egomaniac, but I highly doubt he's a sadistic horse abuser.
                He has a foal training program for those who breed: would you feel confident if your buyers used him?


                If a breed is predisposed to any physical weakness shouldn't a horseman be particularly vigilant about monitoring such a horse?

                And I disagree, two weeks is plenty of time to overwork a horse in a program where flooding to learned helplessness and exhaustion, extreme stress, and withholding water are accepted procedures in a 'training' regime; especially a hairy black horse in a hot, sunny climate. Heat exhaustion is real in cattle, let alone horses in hard work who are not monitored.

                Galls are from poor fitting equipment or ill made, uncovered buckles and cinch rings on soft horses, not taking the time to wash salt off of girths or horses between works - they are simply bad horsemanship.

                And 'hours in the saddle' is no excuse. Endurance horses are inpected at rides for galls and back soreness; any horse treated so that 3/4 are sored are being abused.

                Refusing owners observation of training sessions means only that your methods will not stand the scrutiny of other horsemen.
                A trainer ought to pass the 'no blood test' in my opinion.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                  If a breed is predisposed to any physical weakness shouldn't a horseman be particularly vigilant about monitoring such a horse?
                  The vast majority of Friesian owners have no idea of any of the breed's weaknesses. The powers that be in the registry want it that way. Besides, the truth is that most Friesian's health is just fine. The breed is susceptible to some genetically inherited problems in the same way some dog breeds are susceptible to some genetic problems.

                  Because so many Friesian owners are not highly experienced horse people, MANY are drawn to the NH "gurus". I don't have any evidence, but I'd be willing to bet a decent chunk of change that CA has worked with quite a few Friesians before. Lol.

                  Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                  And I disagree, two weeks is plenty of time to overwork a horse in a program where flooding to learned helplessness and exhaustion, extreme stress, and withholding water are accepted procedures in a 'training' regime; especially a hairy black horse in a hot, sunny climate. Heat exhaustion is real in cattle, let alone horses in hard work who are not monitored.
                  Look, I'm not defending CA, but if ^^^this was the norm and was going on all the time, he'd be in jail by now. There's no way someone could treat horses like that regularly for the past 15 years or more (or however long he's been around) and not have had his pants sued off, or have been caught and prosecuted. Especially in this world of cell phone video cameras.
                  www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
                  Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
                  with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jdeboer01 View Post
                    Besides, the truth is that most Friesian's health is just fine. The breed is susceptible to some genetically inherited problems in the same way some dog breeds are susceptible to some genetic problems.
                    I can't help but think that if they were really such delicate flowers the Charros would be killing them off left and right. They go up and down my street doing stuff like this whether it's 50F or 105F.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bccKkyVwC_Y
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVwcLjqx7wQ
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIJ_R903Vf4
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D9n3b-oeIQ

                    Not saying they handle the heat well - they don't look all that good after they've been made to "dance" 5 min straight in full summer - but they aren't keeling over dead in great numbers either.

                    I can't imagine that round-penning one in March weather would be enough to kill the horse without some underlying issues over and above the usual Friesians-are-hothouse-flowers.

                    I really wish the horse owner had been willing to do the necropsy so we'd actually know what happened.

                    Comment


                    • Welp, the difference about the weather might be that Stephenville, besides being hotter than blue blazes at times, is in a humid area. My family's ranch isn't too far from there and I can say, at times, you feel like you're inhaling water. If you wash your hair, without a blow dryer, you're hair won't dry and would prolly mold!!

                      Yeah, maybe Freisians are a bit on the delicate side, but isn't this the breed who carried knights into battle?? Or is that an old wives tale??
                      GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by goneriding24 View Post
                        Welp, the difference about the weather might be that Stephenville, besides being hotter than blue blazes at times, is in a humid area. My family's ranch isn't too far from there and I can say, at times, you feel like you're inhaling water. If you wash your hair, without a blow dryer, you're hair won't dry and would prolly mold!!

                        Yeah, maybe Freisians are a bit on the delicate side, but isn't this the breed who carried knights into battle?? Or is that an old wives tale??
                        It's an old wives tale.

                        They used Brabants, Shires, and such.

                        ^_^

                        ETA it's more like a New Hollywood Myth, because they just look so pretty, all fluffed up.
                        Last edited by Alagirl; Mar. 31, 2013, 09:34 PM.

                        Comment


                        • If they ever did carry knights into battle, it was long before their gene pool became the size of your Mom's soup tureen.

                          Comment


                          • posted the same time as alagirl. Yeah, what she said.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jdeboer01 View Post
                              The vast majority of Friesian owners have no idea of any of the breed's weaknesses. The powers that be in the registry want it that way. Besides, the truth is that most Friesian's health is just fine. The breed is susceptible to some genetically inherited problems in the same way some dog breeds are susceptible to some genetic problems.

                              Because so many Friesian owners are not highly experienced horse people, MANY are drawn to the NH "gurus". I don't have any evidence, but I'd be willing to bet a decent chunk of change that CA has worked with quite a few Friesians before. Lol.



                              Look, I'm not defending CA, but if ^^^this was the norm and was going on all the time, he'd be in jail by now. There's no way someone could treat horses like that regularly for the past 15 years or more (or however long he's been around) and not have had his pants sued off, or have been caught and prosecuted. Especially in this world of cell phone video cameras.
                              There are plenty of horse owners who believe in the hard knock school of horse training. And it is amazing how non-horse people seem to believe whatever they are told by someone they identify as an expert; whether that person is damaging to the horse or at the other end of the spectrum totally spoiling the animal.

                              A person putting themselves out as an international expert and trainer of trainers ought to be held to a far higher standard of knowledge about varous breeds; and if the training is rigorous, conditioning should be done using Temp Pulse Respiration monitoring at mniimum, using an original workup as a baseline.
                              Human physical trainers of humans suggest pre training physicals and monitor dangerous situations on an individual basis. But they also find out what went wrong when a death or critical result occurs.

                              Hiding from the public because they might think your methods are 'too harsh appearing and they won't understand' or you are 'too busy' to be watched - not interrupted, just watched?

                              Not a place I would send one of my horses.

                              Comment


                              • Those charro videos made me sick.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
                                  Those charro videos made me sick.
                                  Yea, that's pretty dang effed up.

                                  Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                                  A person putting themselves out as an international expert and trainer of trainers ought to be held to a far higher standard of knowledge about varous breeds.
                                  How do we know he's not? He could be well aware of the exercise intolerance many Friesians have. If anything, they may submit faster than other breeds because they're tired after 2 mins of running around. Which would make them easier to train. Lol.

                                  Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                                  Hiding from the public because they might think your methods are 'too harsh appearing and they won't understand' or you are 'too busy' to be watched - not interrupted, just watched?

                                  Not a place I would send one of my horses.
                                  Me neither, but I kind of see where he's coming from as far as people hovering around and slowing down the process. Don't forget -- the fa$ter his ranch can turn a hor$e around the fa$ter he can get another one in. That being said, IMHO he really should permit owners to observe the training process at least four times during their stay at the ranch. But he doesn't and that's why I would NEVER send a horse to him. I doubt he's any harsher on the horses than any other NH guru out there. I just think he's an ass. Lol.
                                  www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
                                  Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
                                  with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

                                  Comment


                                  • Not to nitpick, but the 2nd quote with my name (above), isn't mine. I agree with it 100%, but I didn't say it .

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
                                      Not to nitpick, but the 2nd quote with my name (above), isn't mine. I agree with it 100%, but I didn't say it .
                                      Fixed! Sorry about that!!
                                      www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
                                      Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
                                      with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

                                      Comment


                                      • Yanno, then again, it could be a perfect storm of everything came together at the right time and Horse just laid down and died. If maybe the intern had taken the horse in one hour earlier, horse wouldn't have died or if it hadn't been so hot that day, or....
                                        GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                                        Comment


                                        • I do distance and my horse was only galled once,when my trainer tightened the girth too tight and didn't stretch his legs out. I ride with a sheepskin cover (which is washed every third ride) and its not an issue. 10 years of riding this horse ,over 100 miles a month during season.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X